Jon et.al.
I am probably interested mainly in how non-human ground/atmospheric
forces interact in DS2.
I have been using my own version of a bio-tech race in FT, but was
having
trouble thinking of how they would attack planet-side.
Realistically, it would probably capture survivors of space battles.
Genetically engineer a virus. And wipe out the population of the planet that
they are attacking. This does not make for a good war game, however.
I also thought of insect-like attack species. Like the virus, this does
not make for good games (your tank enters the woods and is attacked by
3,000,000 insectoids. You target a unit with APSW and kill it. 2,999,999
insectoids attack). For good game play, attackers would need to be dog size or
larger.
Then I thought of dropping warrior creatures to act as warriors (ala Alien,
Mote series, etc.). The main drawback of this is range. They can only make
close assaults (unless they carry weapons leaving the bio-theme). This
can
be quite effective with the correct bonuses for anti-armor and
anti-personelle attacks). But only in close quarters. They get slottered
in open terrain.
I also thought of huge armored attack animals (think dinosaurs, dragons,
Dune's Worms, etc.). But again, I would have trouble justifying ranged
attacks. (Spaceship sized creatures can probably store solar energy and
convert hydrogen from gas giants into enough fuel for energy weapons, but
anything smaller is hard to justify).
I also thought of soldiers with bio-powered versions of the normal DS2
weapons. Again, this seemed to streach reality beyond the breaking point (how
much food do you need to eat to produce a 100 megawat energy beam? How far can
you throw your quills?).
I also thought of insect-like attack species. Like the virus, this does
not make for good games.
Jon, I'm not asking for details, I'll wait for BDS for that, but what
philosophy does the Sa'Vasku use for Ground Forces. One of the above or
something that I have not thought of?
Other DS2 players please comment also.
> On Sat, Nov 01, 1997 at 01:44:48PM -0500, Brian Bell wrote:
I just read the fourth book in David Gerrold's "War Against the Chtorr"
series, and I think those books provide a nice map of how a
bio-tech invasion would happen. The aliens haven't landed, as far as
we know. They landed creatures that will out-compete the natives.
That included a virus and a few plagues, but that doesn't mean there's no
gaming potential. The alien biology forms "nests" that the humans try to wipe
out. A combined forces attack on one of the nests could be... interesting.
who ever said that the SV were going to be on the human side... they just said
they wanted a meeting... perhaps they are looking for some more humans to
absorbe in to there collective and perhaps they are subtly controling the
kra'vak... ohhhhhh...the possibilities
chris "just saw conspiracy theory and i think its effecting my mind" pratt
valen10@flash.net
> Brian Burger wrote:
> <VERY long but equally interesting S'V ideas snipped>
[snip]
> Jon, I'm not asking for details, I'll wait for BDS for that, but what
I've still got a lot of work to do and ideas to sort out for S'V ground forces
(and space ones for that matter), but one idea that we had (that may or may
not get used) is this:
All S'V units (space and ground) are bio-constructs; humanity may never
get to see a real Sa'Vasku, and in fact they may never even leave their
homeworld (maybe they can't? Maybe there is really only ONE
Sa'Vasku...?)
The bio-constructs are loosely divided into Volitionals [V] (sentient in
their own right) and non-volitionals [NV] (machine/animals) [Some ideas
nicked from W.J. Williams' "Angel Station"].
A S'V starship is a large NV, "crewed" by Vs - or maybe the other way
round.....??
S'V ground forces are similar in that an "APC" is a single NV
"creature/machine", directed by a V "commander"; it's "troops" (I'm
using human analogues here) are smaller NVs held in a dormant state inside the
"APC", which can be awakened and deployed when necessary. The NV warriors
fight like automated drones, probably not very tactically but with enough
ferocity and lack of morale worries to balance this, until they exhaust their
limited energy supplies; at this point they will become comatose
and/or "die", and their raw biomass may be re-absorbed into the APC
(probably by it driving over them and "eating" them...) for regeneration as
more "troops" when needed.
These are just some rough ramblings, and certainly haven't been refined into
gameable rules yet, but other opinions and ideas are welcome.
Jon (GZG)
> Brian Bell
> On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Ground Zero Games wrote:
> All S'V units (space and ground) are bio-constructs; humanity may
Interesting ideas... I'd suggest a fairly simple means of seperating the Vs
from NVs in S'V: if its a single fighting entity, then it'll be Volitional; if
it has a clear and short directive of control, it'll be a single Volitional
and several Drones; if its intended to attack and destroy through sheer horde
tactics, it'll be a cluster of Drones.
Given the above breakdown and applying it to space structures, most ships will
be Volitionals, as space combat is highly localized and extremely
moment-reactive. Space fighters, or their rough equivalents in S'V
biotech, may be smallish flights led by a single Volitional (much like human
fighter flights with an Ace, except that if the S'V lose their Ace, the rest
become Drones) or lots and lots, a wing or more, of relatively
uninspired but extremely 'cheap' Drones which are more extended-time
missiles than anything else.
When taking ground, the same analysis leads to much expected results: in
matters of war, where on-site reasoning and consideration is needed,
Volitionals leading small Drone groups are the norm. The equivalent of a
platoon of tanks would probably be best served, in a situation where attrition
will be high, as all Volitionals (the vehicles themselves, rather than any
crew thereof), since the loss of one would severely curtail their prime
function if they lost the Controller, as they are, in fact, likely to. On the
other hand, in a defensive situation or one where the S'V are likely to have a
lot of logistical support and can afford to simply project force at a problem
until it goes away, taking the Controller structure and making the average
DSII 'maneuver unit' of tanks larger than a platoon, perhaps up to 9 or 10
tanks in the unit, could be extremely useful and 'cheaper' if the supply of
Volitional minds is the deciding factor. That leaves, as the third
possibility, the Horde strategy, cheapest of all and likely employed as you
outlined in APCs where the Controller is much larger and more armoured than
the Drones and may be able to generate any number of them given time. It might
be an APC or even a facility (think Aliens, with the atmosphere refinery
/intended/
as a Horde breeding facility).
I have an interesting idea for explaining the cultural source of the
S'V,
which you are free to adopt for the high cost of just an acknowledgement
:) :
The S'V are not a race or culture at all, but the fleshly /remnants/ of
a Transcended culture, in the mold of Extropian theorists, which became so
good at biomanipulation and creation that the culture itself uploaded, en
masse, into an enormous bio-computational construct which, for want of a
better word, they 'infected' their homeworld with. Of course, it would be
wasteful to upload your mind and leave the flesh merely to rot, so they
crafted new 'pseudominds' to remain behind and maintain watch over the
homeworld, only occasionally peeking out of their new universe to check on how
things were going. The pseudominds had access to Transcend biotechnology but
no desire to use it (after all, they're not real minds), so kept things
running, the homeworld (now, perhaps better refered to as a Cache) clean and
everything clean.
Until the Transcend culture became bored and wanted new playmates.
After all, there's only so many things /to/ do in a massive simulated
universe. After you've played God a billion times and raised entire cultures
only to destroy them when they tired you, you start getting hungry for a new
perspective on things. So the S'V, (or, rather, the creators of the S'V)
instructed their agents to, if they happened to stumble onto any living
things, upload them a copy before adding them to the S'V biotech materials
labs. (After all, isn't apotheosizing entire
cultures into gods themselves a rather keen thing to /do/?)
Thus, the S'V geared up for war, because its a very ready source of living
minds and makes a wonderful diversion as well for the Cache. There were
created several smaller TransCaches, like small, mobile homeworlds or a
Berserker base, into which volunteer armies of Transcend minds were copied
voluntarily, like an outing to the beach or the front stands at a stadium. The
S'V themselves do not, and likely cannot, understand the reasons behind what
they do; all they know is that they capture the enemy or take his newly dead
body (as long as the brain's not terribly damaged), put it into a chamber for
a while, and it comes out ready to join the S'V biotechs. For their part, the
Transcend are having the time of their unending lives. A great war to watch
from the frontlines, new folks popping in regularly, an entire thriving
pseudocommunity developing in the Caches, they haven't had so much fun in
millions of years. Most of those
in the TransCaches are living in near-realtime just to enjoy it more.
Those captured and uploaded don't take long to realize that there are numerous
advantages to being where they are, essential imortality and Godhood are hard
to resist. From time to time, however, the S'V have to 'release' an uploaded
'Prisoner of War' (who's fully integrated with the Transcend culture already
and very unwilling to leave). Its very easy to
recreate the original body, put in a pseudo-mind (usually crafted by the
'prisoner himself from a copy!) and turn it loose. In such a way agents
can and have been inserted into the space-faring nations of Full
Thrust/DSII to nudge them along certain paths.
Very occasionally, one of the Transcend will actually send a copy out of the
Cache to be involved personally in the war in a constructed body, whether it
be as an infantryman, armour or even a Hordemember. There's nothing that
reproduces the feeling of 'being there' more than actually being there. As
long as the living creature or corpse is recovered, its
memories and experiences can be salvaged and re-uploaded into its
waiting 'parent.' Most of the best Volitionals are Cache members who've let
out Copies (or 'gunrunners' as they're affectionately refered to). Its not
surprising to find Volitionals forged from NSE personel using NSE tactics with
S'V bioforms just for fun. After all, once your immortal, nothing keeps you
from fielding an entire battle group of soldiers and armour, all
pseudo-cloned from your own mind at various resolutions.
All in all, a very interesting and compelling setup, making the S'V a
/lot/ more interesting than they might be if they were simply the
'faceless biomachine enemy.' They really /o/ think that they're doing
what's best for everyone they meet, and they might be right.
[Yes, this Transcend culture /was/ developed as a far more interesting
basis for the Borg than what we ended up with in ST.Under this paradigm,
the post-Borg Jon-Luc Picard is just a pseudo-mind /created/ by the
original Picard (now happily uploaded into the Borg Collective and frollicking
with whatever floats his fancy) and was specifically designed to nudge
Starfleet down certain paths toward Transcend...]
<VERY long but equally interesting S'V ideas snipped>
There's only one problem w/ your hypothesis of what the S'V do to POWs -
they're supposed to be fighting on the same side as the humans, against the
Kra'vak. If it was even suspected that the SV were doing odd, possibly
unpleasant things to humans in their 'care', I think it'd be one of the
shorter alliances on record as the various Human cultures recoil in horror...
The above assumes the suppositions I've made from the More Thrust background
is broadly accurate...
The Borg are also a bad analogue (sp?) for the SV, I think. Unless the
'Overmind' you propose disguises it's intentions very, very well. (see top
paragraph)
I might rough out my take on the SV into something more coherant soon and add
it to the discussion in more detail, but not today...I hate it when reality
intrudes on gaming...
later,
> On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Brian Burger wrote:
> There's only one problem w/ your hypothesis of what the S'V do to POWs
Now, doesn't the very idea of a bio-modified Kra'vak just gets your skin
tingling and blood pumpin'?:) The occasional 'military advisor' dropping in on
the S'V wouldn't even register as different after being Transcended into the
Cache, that's the advantage of being effectively millions of times smarter and
faster with an incredibly powerful biotechnology at your disposal...
Of course, given such a cool race, it'd be a shame to leave them teamed up
with the humans for long.:) Fascinating specie are inevitably the villains.
> The Borg are also a bad analogue (sp?) for the SV, I think. Unless the
You're a member of a Transcend culture with billions of members all running at
an apreciable portion of realtime if you feel the whim and free of any concern
but what you desire. If such a culture can't be subtle, I
don't know who /can/.
> Alexander Williams wrote:
...Snip...(JTL)
> The S'V are not a race or culture at all, but the fleshly /remnants/
...Snip...(JTL)
Transcend
> biotechnology but no desire to use it (after all, they're not real
...Snip...(JTL)
> created several smaller TransCaches, like small, mobile homeworlds or
...Snip...(JTL)
> in the TransCaches are living in near-realtime just to enjoy it more.
...Snip...(JTL)
> Very occasionally, one of the Transcend will actually send a copy out
There's
> nothing that reproduces the feeling of 'being there' more than
...Snip...(JTL)
> [Yes, this Transcend culture /was/ developed as a far more interesting
Alexander, With all the transcending going out there, I am very glad that one
of my alien races is catching and canning the Sha'vasku. (Let them try to
transcend that!) As far a starfleet is concerned, most of the command staff
has very large personality disorders.
Bye for now,
> On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, John Leary wrote:
> With all the transcending going out there, I am very glad that
Actually, a semi-natural 'predator' culture might be one of the few
things that would stop a Transcended culture cold, especially one as
biologically driven as the S'V. Canned S'V might become a delicacy in several
parts of the universe, there is a universal limit not even Transcend cultures
can beat: the amount of energy in a given area of space.
> By the way, I really did like the Sha'vasku 'history'.
Thank you; occasionally, I fancy myself an author-type. :)
> Jon at 09:22 03/11/97 +0000, you wrote:
[snip]
> All S'V units (space and ground) are bio-constructs
...Good
> humanity may never get to see a real Sa'Vasku, and in fact they may
...I think a large V that produces NV when needed is the better of the two; it
allows SGII forces (ie 'frigate' lands planet side and disenbarks APC type
vehicles with either a part of the V 's brain core in the command APC {I like
this} or communication between ship and ground forces) In SGII the loss of a
leader would be akin to loss of comm. or a 'stroke'
Troops/ammo-energy are all NV.
Make the vehicles offensive power limited ie OTTOMH say 1pt/" movement &
15+
for ave tank round fired [don't have DSII] when the APC runs low its going to
have to return to the ship or cease to have any actions (KOed) Perhaps damage
applied to it just reduces its energy pool as in MT for ships?
I like Alexander W's ideas but would try not to make S'V's immortal
(individual but connected brains that can go adventuring if they choose to
disconnect IIMO better than making a copy. The reason is copies are always
expendable thereby making S'V tactics that of the K'V's,where as
immortality due to lack of old age makes for caution a better/different
race point of view) and would assume S'V's absorb all casualties on both
sides, that could be used for repairs.
> S'V ground forces are similar in that an "APC" is a single NV
...I would like to think that S'V ships "grow up". Take a large DN this can
spit like n ameoba into two (say cruisers) these would then live and absorb
genetic material to grow up and become DN's themselves. I think a lower limit
would need to be set on V's (ie anything smaller than a frigate is a snip of
an original V's brain core and it wants it back)
Non-S'V opposition can be absorbed but due to the energy required its
more efficient to NV the sample (ie a dead NAC marine has his brain
transformed into that of a std. ground force trooper leaving his equipment as
is. Why
try to break-down the gun ammo etc to use as raw material when its more
energy efficient to just modify the biological 'trigger')
Jon (top cat)
Sprayforming Developments Ltd. [production tools]
made in
[prototype times]
'The future is now'
> [Yes, this Transcend culture /was/ developed as a far more interesting
So the Borg are really Q agents? ;-)
- Sam
> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Sprayform wrote:
> I like Alexander W's ideas but would try not to make S'V's immortal
Actually, you misread me here; while the Transcend culture that gave rise to
the S'V are, effectively, immortal, the S'V themselves are not, at least as I
envisioned it. The S'V are a 'waste product,' of sorts, of the way the
Transcend culture reached their Singularity Point, albeit a waste product that
the current culture is deriving great amusement for. I don't expect that the
Transcends send out copies to get involved often at all; its a bit 'crude' for
them, I'd wager. The ones that did would be the fringier elements of the
culture. After all, within the Caches, any
member could build a hyper-realistic 'game' of a battle and play with
it. The 'lure' of reality would be a fairly rare thing. In a sense, the
Transcend culture is well beyond anything we, as embodied sentients, can
understand (want to rule the world? go off in a corner of the Cache, sim up a
planet and make a billion variant copies of yourself and your friends
to populate it with). What it /does/ give us, however, is a race with
very little culture of their own, with dictates and needs that come down from
'on high' and a need to go to war for the one resource that you can't
simply /take/ without a fight: individual identities.
Where the K'V fight without pity or remorse because if they didn't, they'd
overpopulate massively, the S'V fight carefully, intently, with very little
reckless abandon, because you waste valuable resources that way. The S'V use
just the right tool for the right job when they can, because it maximizes
returns. Sometimes, even most of the time depending on how
energy-hungry you make S'V biotechnology, they just have to 'make do
with what they have.' In one area, they may have bases of supply and industry,
and field massive bio-cybertanks backed up with hordes of near-mindless
dog-sized Drones, and elsewhere, in a much more tentative holding, the
best they may be able to field are biologically repaired ESE equipment
manned by bio-zombies with minimal restructuring with much the same
minds as they once had, only turned to serve the S'V. This makes the S'V
excellent fior fielding very diverse sets of troops, depending on what one
really likes to play with.
> ...I would like to think that S'V ships "grow up" . Take a large DN
I don't imagine that S'V bioship development would take place at a scale of
time likely to be relevant, unless you're playing a campeign game and, if so,
using the same sort of numbers for how long it takes as everyone else with
just a different explanation would be the balanced way to handle it.
I can definitely visualize a S'V 'space dock,' an enormous lump of hardened
mucusy structure, tugged from an embedded asteroid at one end, perhaps,
supporting a lattice vaguely reminiscent of a hydroponics laboratory. Ships
might reproduce by cuttings, or by cloning, or even
sexually through a vine-like support structure alongside the trellis if
this is an experimental growth station...
> Non-S'V opposition can be absorbed but due to the energy required its
Why
> try to break-down the gun ammo etc to use as raw material when its
As above, it depends on how much energy you have to play with. If you've got
enough to make the trooper into a more efficent killing machine,
perhaps by welding he and another soldier into a two-headed Cerebroid
canine with a built in short-range missile pod on his back, then you'll
do so. If you're rationing energy heavily, you may just do a bit of biomod to
toughen the skin, mindwipe him (in the process, uploading him into the Cache,
though no one knows that) and send him out again.
[One of these days I'll novelize this idea ...]
> On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Alexander Williams wrote:
...and the best thing about them is you don't have to wait until they're
painted before you can play with them!
The S'V are God's Own Miniature Gamers...
> Alexander Williams wrote:
> Actually, you misread me here; while the Transcend culture that gave
[snippity snip]
> [One of these days I'll novelize this idea ...]
But didn't Vernor Vinge beat you to it in 'Fire upon the Deep'? Most of the
ideas you mention are developed very well in that novel.
> On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Steve Pugh wrote:
> But didn't Vernor Vinge beat you to it in 'Fire upon the Deep'?
Hmmmm, one of the novels I haven't had time to read since developing something
like an 'overworked life.':) I plead independent development, guv'nor.
> Alexander Williams wrote:
TWIMC, One thing I have noticed since joining this 'club' is that ideas come
out, get modified, bounce back, get modified, ect.. I will not say that 'No
new ideas appear', but that many
variations on proven/past themes come to light to 'solve'
problems which may or may not exist based upon ones point of view. The
discussions are always (reasonably) enjoyable. Always interesting, wandering,
sidetracked, wisecracked, thoughtful, and writted in English, Aussie, and
American, what more can one want for light entertainment. Bye for now,