WWII Stargrunt

Lately I've been toying with the idea of playing some WWII squad level games
using some of the 15mm figs I have access to. I thought I saw a
Stargrunt/WWII conversion somewhere on the Web, but I can't seem to find
it anywhere. Am I dreaming this? If not, could some kindly soul send me the
link? Thanks.

In article <3.0.5.32.20000304105113.00860550@aros.net>, Don Greenfield
<gryphon@aros.net> writes
> Lately I've been toying with the idea of playing some WWII squad

There was some discussion on this list a while back. here's what I can find.
Also, try here

http://www.l-25.demon.co.uk/index.htm

****************************************************************

Rather than buying a WWW II ruleset I thought why not use Stargrunt, the

first fruits of this idea lie below. I am not sure how well the command &
control system fits but I guess quite well, even if I have to make everything
worse (yes, even the SS!).

STARGRUNT II WW II WEAPONS Weapon Range Firepower Impact Example Pistol Close
1 D4 <= 9 mm P Heavy Pistol Close 1 D6.45,.455
Shotgun Close   1       D10     12-Bore Pump
SMG             Close   3       D8      MP-40, Thompson, Sten...
Carbine 1 D6 M1 Carbine Machine Carbine 2 D6 M2 Carbine Assault Rifle 2 D8 StG
44
Bolt-Action Rifle               1       D10     Kar 98k, SMLE...
Automatic Rifle 2 D10 FG 42, BAR SAW D6 D10 Bren LMG D8 D10 MG34, MG42 MMG D10
D10 Vickers,.30 Browning HMG D10 D12.50 M2HB
Anti-Tank Rifle         1       D12     Boys
Panzerschrek D10 D12* Panzerfaust D10 D10* Bazooka D10 D10*

These are just a few quick ideas, untested and untried. I think there are
maybe too many of them but better too many than too few. I am not very happy
with SMGs.

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In a message dated 97-08-28 06:53:27 EDT, you write:

> Rather than buying a WWW II ruleset I thought why not use Stargrunt,

> are maybe too many of them but better too many than too few.

I've been toying with ideas for WWII Stargrunt as well, so thought I'd throw
in my thoughts. I've seen a suggestion somewhere to give the US M1 rifle a FP
of 1.5 since it was a clearly better rifle than that used by the other
nations. Not sure if I think that is worth the effort. I'd also change the AT
rocket values around a bit. The panzerfaust had the largest warhead of the
three but was the least accurate. The Bazooka's warhead was smallest. The
bazooka would not penetrate the frontal armor of most German tanks and had
trouble with the side armor on many. I seem to recall that the bazooka was
even more accurate at ranges than a panzershreck, but it's probably not worth
modelling. My values: Weapon Firepower Impact Panzerfaust d8 d12* Panzerschrek
d10 d10* PIAT d8 d10* Bazooka d10 d8*

Some thoughts

Brian

In a message dated 97-08-30 02:34:23 EDT, you write:

<< I've seen a suggestion somewhere to give the US M1 rifle a FP of 1.5 since
it was a clearly better rifle than that used by the other nations. Not sure if
I think that is worth the effort. >>

Just to throw my nickle in -->  The M-1 was an excellant rifle easily
worth a full 2, BUT as US Army training did not emphasize combat training. [
See S.L.A. Marshall's historical opion on this for confirmation] So in the
early part of the war a US squad only put out as much firepower as a bolt
action squad because so few men [about half or less than in an equal numbered
German squad] were firing (1942 or so). Now by the time Normandy was over the
ETO (European Theater of Operations) was running a quikie Advanced Infantry
course before feeding replacements into the line (Refer to Omar Bradly & et
al) so the US squads (mostly combat veterans) had their firepower way up.

Also in 42 the squads were slotted for 11 men - 1BAR, 1 Thompson, 9 M-
1s. by late 44 to the end there were in practise only 9 slotted with 2BARs and
1
Thompson and 6 M-1s ( and only rarely did they acheive this. Sometime
after Paris Patton (3rd Army) issued his men Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts
instead of the Bazooka because they were better weapons and they had captured
wharehouses full of them in France.

Ifyou were to ask me to write a scenerio I would give a fresh (from the
states) unit a full 10/11 men and a firefactor of 1. If we were doing
the
bulge with veteran troops the squads would have to be 6/8 and a
firefactor of
2.

Early war plt: 35 men --> 5men in command stand - LT(carbine),
Srgt(Thompson), 3 runners(M-1s) of which one would have the radio.
3Squads
w/10 men 1 BAR, Thompson (Sargent) 9 M-1s.[M-1 FF:1]

Late war vet plt. 24men  --> 3men in command stand - Lt(carbine), sgt
(Thompson/ M-2), radio man (M-1)   3squads - 1 sqd 2BARs, 1 Tommy gun, 2
M-1s
(marksmen); 2/3 sqds - 2BARs, a tommy gun, 5 M-1s [M-1 FF:2]  note: 2
manuever sqds and one firesupport sqd.[this one would have the bazooka, or
panzerfaust] or maybe even a 30 cal Lmg.

If you think that a late war US plt was a rather wicked combat team, you would
be correct. If you look at them early in the war (being green morale) you
might not envy them and you can see why the Brits kind looked down on them. As
near as I can determine, the longer a division was in a combat zone the closer
it resembled a late war plt, so a 1st division outfit might be closer to a
late war plt as early as Sicily. A new division, such as the one on the Schnee
Eiffle that got overrun at the start of the Bulge, might resemble an early war
plt as late as Dec 1944.

If you are real interested here is a book that might help with US performance
in WWII, "Closing with the Enemy" by Michael D. Doubler   University
Press of
Kansas ISBN 0-7006-0675-0

Well, here we go, I'll get my tail burnt but what the hey......

Is the M1 worth a 1, a 1.5 or a 2? You've got to ask yourself how Jon based
his criteria of the FP factors in teh first place. Is it a combination of the
weapons rate of fire (ROF), calibre of projectile, weight of ammunition,
sights on the weapon and any others you might think of? Civlian, hunting and
bolt action rifles get a FP1 right? Lo tech assault rifles get a FP2.
Personally I think that a FP of 1 is still appropriate.

My logic is based on the averaging of factors that contribute to the weapons
FP in the rules. This isn't skirmish wargaming and the effect of the weapons
in a group is really what we are trying to simulate. Given
that then...................

The M1 uses a 30-06 cartridge, so less ammunition is likely to be
carried than a lighter calibre rifle. The open sights are average (please, the
Brit.303 SMLE was sighted and capable of firing out to an excess of 1,000
yards so we are probably going to get lots of arguments about weapon
accuracy). The operation of the weapon is semi automatic, so you can argue a
higher ROF than the Mauser. Although the magasine only holds 7 rounds(?) so
compared to the 303 which holds 10 it would balance the faster ROF, except
perhaps at very close range such as urban or perhaps jungle.

To add further to muddy the argument compare the firepower of the M1 and 303
to the German assault rifle of '44, this is pretty much what the AK47 was
modelled on. This would undoubtably have a higher FP than the M1 or 303 or
Mauser. But would not warrant a FP of hiogher than 2. So I really think that
it leaves the M1 back at the FP 1.