Re: The Demise of GenCon
Well, here, eight hours away from Milwaukee, there is at least one (Con of the
North), and sometimes two (Twin Con), gaming conventions a year, plus Minicon,
a Science Fiction and Fantasy writer's convention that has a gaming room
available. The Twin Cities are a smaller market than Milwaukee, I think.
Perhaps the dominance of T$R in your market stunted the development of an
idependent gaming community in Milwaukee, but I have always thought that the
smaller, more intimate gaming conventions are more enjoyable, and certainly
cheaper.
How many people actually go to those smaller "engagements"? And for Jon and KR
at GeoHex, which are more profitable, in terms of sales per people seen,
instead of total volume of sales? Or is that confidential info?
(If it matters, or to make it topical, I'm running SGII at Con of the North
this year...)
Hello All. Well, I got some rather interesting news today. Steve Jackson
Games, Palladium, R. Talsorian Games, RPGnet and a few others WILL NOT be
attending this year's GenCon. It seems that these companys are really
pee-ed off at Wizards of the Coast's handling of the fair. According to
SJG's Daily Illuminator Site (http://www.sjgames.com/ill), WotC has
raised booth prices up to 50% of last year's rates. SJG will also not be
sponsoring any events for their own games. This is not good.
[Author note..... the following paragraph contains statements that are
based upon rumor and speculation. Please do not panic for they could be
totally and completely without merit. Thank you.]
Wisconsin's gaming community has been worried about GenCon for a couple years
now. Last year, everyone was saying that 1997s GenCon would be the last one
held in Milwaukee and that WotC would move it to a larger city. Now there are
mumbles about how this just might be the last GenCon period. By all the
current indication's WotC is poorly organizing this year's event. If this game
fair flops.... then a great institution may have just bitten the dust. For
myself, and a lot of gamers like me, GenCon is our ONE major gaming event of
the year. I don't make that much money right now, and I can't afford to go any
other conventions. Too lose GenCon would be nothing short of a personal
disaster. The trouble is I don't know what we can do about it. We can't blaim
the companies for wanting to stay away. If they think that WotC is being
unfair to them, then they have every right in the universe not to participate.
The thought of complaining to WotC seems also pointless. I've had little
experience with them, but from what I've seen so far they seem like a company
that cares little for their customers.
(Perhaps because the average WotC customer is 10-15 years old is too
young to know that he or she is being swindled.)
Well, If GenCon goes belly up, I can say I at least got to go to a good one
(1987). I kind of hoped to go to one this year, but if everyone is getting
peeved with it to the point of not taking a booth... well. Time will tell.
Who gave the WotC the Con to run anyway if they wanted to do a half arsed job?
T.
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Is it just me or is WotC (Wizards of the Coast, inflictors-upon-us of
Munchkin: The Addiction:) attempting to become the new, American version of
the Brit Evil Empire we all love to hate?
Did WotC hire/borrow some GW business managers? Sure seems that way...
(Confession time: I was sucked into Munchkin: The Addiction when it first came
out...thru effort of will (and going broke) I got out of the "hobby" and into
minis...much better):)
On Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:54:38 -0600, "Mark A. Siefert."
> <cthulhu@csd.uwm.edu> wrote:
> According to
Apparently a number of smaller companies aren't going, either. Speculation is
rife as to why Andon is doing this (Andon is WOTC's convention arm).
Suggestions run from "GenCon isn't profitable," to
"WOTC is trying to make GenCon a TSR/WOTC only con." I would believe
the "not profitable" part first. I've always been amazed that GenCon
costs $40 pre-reg for the weekend when WorldCon (same weekend this
year) costs $150 for the same time period. This is US dollars, too!
(Side note: Toronto has the inside track for WorldCon in 2003. The other two
competitors are Cancun and another US city. Considering the bargain you get
with the exchange rate coming up here, and the fact that Toronto is within a
day's drive of over 100 million people, Toronto's bid is looking good!)
> By all the current indication's WotC is poorly
I was certainly unimpressed with the "web site" for pre-reg. I noticed
that they are still asking for game proposals. On the other hand, I
received my pre-reg confirmation promptly enough. I liked their
demographics data on the form, though my wife would have preferred the default
to be "Not Sure" or "Unknown" for sex, instead of the default of "male."
> The trouble is I don't know what we can do about it. We can't
WOTC is a bit better at this than TSR, though. TSR's rules and regulations for
their products and GenCon were rather Draconian. By strict interpretation you
couldn't play a historical samurai skirmish game because decapitations were on
their "evil, bad, awful" list (though apparently Warhammer Fantasy's critical
tables with "death from shock and bloodloss is almost instantaneous," got past
the censors).
Hopefully only a few companies will back out. Or, a LOT will back out and
Andon will be forced to drop their prices to attract anyone. What with the
pricing at GenCon and WOTC's CCG patent, there aren't too many companies
willing to play ball with these guys.
I fear you may be right about GenCon. I could always switch to Origins, I
suppose (it's actually closer for me) but I'd miss Milwaukee. It's a nice
town. In many ways, it's the most Canadian city I've visited in the US (I mean
that in the good way!). (Boston was the most British.)
On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:58:51 -0500, Thomas Barclay
> <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> wrote:
> I kind of hoped to go to one this year, but if
Well, a bunch of us will be there. I'm running an SG2 game using GW miniatures
(the title of the scenario, if they keep the title, is "Operation: Chapter
Approved"). Whatever happens to the dealer's room, it won't affect the games
or the people attending. I'd say that this could be a reasonable year to go.
Next year will depend on what happens THIS year.
> Who gave the WotC the Con to run anyway if they wanted to do a half
WOTC isn't running the con. Technically a company called Andon is running the
con. Andon also runs Origins. However, Andon is owned by WOTC. WOTC gave
GenCon to Andon when WOTC bought out TSR. If WOTC hadn't bailed out TSR last
year, there wouldn't have been a 1997 GenCon, let alone a 1998 GenCon.
(Note: this message is Year 2000 certified!)
On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:14:12 -0800 (PST), Brian Burger
> <burger00@camosun.bc.ca> wrote:
> Is it just me or is WotC (Wizards of the Coast, inflictors-upon-us of
TSR already WAS the American version of GW. WOTC is more like the gaming
equivalent of Microsoft. WOTC's prices are still rather reasonable; it's their
competitive practices that are questionable. What ARE they putting in the
drinking water out there near Seattle?
> Alfredo Lorente wrote:
I'm sorry, but I can't even afford to go to a game con that is in an ajoining
state. For me it's Gen Con or nothing, unless something can replace it
locally.
> From: "Alfredo Lorente" <alfredo@exodus.bitstream.net>
GenCon is an enormous show, unmatched by ANY in the industry. I only really do
three shows (flying out of Portland, OR is EXPENSIVE!!), so I can't say how
good the many small shows could be; but GenCon ALWAYS makes a profit for us! I
have the info on this years GenCon in hand, and it is a bigger show than last
year! I'm sure that GenCon will continue to be a great show in the future.
While attendance was down last year, for many of us sales were up. I think
that the lack of CCG attendees actually helped sales because people could find
and buy the items they wanted. When the show's attendance exploded during the
heyday of CCG's, the actual sales volume for a miniatures based company like
us went down. I think we'll see a return to a more miniatures and RPG based
attendance, at
least until the next ground-breaking-game-phenomenon comes along!
This year Jeff Gulliam has put together a team to run over 25 demo games for
us, as they did last year. Andon (the new owner's of the show) have extended a
very warm helping hand to all the GM's and from what I can see, their
organization skills are excellent. Everyone wants GenCon to stay right there
in Milwaukee, so keep the faith and we'll see you at the booth this August!!
KR
> Re: The Demise of GenCon
> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:54:38 -0600
> Hello All.
These are the same companies who fought long and hard to move GAMA in a
certain direction and LOST! SJG and Talsorian in particular have have long
since curtailed their participation at this and other shows. While the
increase in booth prices is a pain, it's also a fact of life, the sheer cost
of doing business goes up every year. What may be happening to them is that
they lose
money at shows that used to be profitable - a concern of MANY
companies in today's market. While I continue to make money at shows such as
GenCon, the minute I try to create a presence the size of SJG profits
evaporate!! And while others are whining, others are making money! Let's face
it folks, people dropped a LOT of money at GenCon
last year - it was a VERY good show for many of the small to mid-size
companies I consider my friends. Many companies are on the upswing some are
going down, but that has ALWAYS been the case.
> [Author note..... the following paragraph contains statements that are
Come on Mark, name the current indications!! I received my judges
forms in November! We are WAY ahead of the curve! All boothe forms
were sent out by FedEx so that everyone received the chance to choose a booth
on the same day. TSR used to mail them and then say that it was first come
first served. Consequently those of us at a considerable distant never got the
booths we wanted. TSR was handling the show poorly the last few years and
attendance and money went down, but Andon has taken a DEAD soldier in Origins
and turned it into a money maker! Cripes, lets give them a chance!!
If this game fair flops.... then a great
> institution may have just bitten the dust.
No one is going to move or curtail GenCon, it is such a major show for the
city of Milwaukee that they bent over backwards to have the new space ready
for us!!
> For myself, and a lot of gamers like me, GenCon is our ONE major
Seems to me that the gamers in Milwaukee and its surrounding areas are just
beginning to realize what they have!! For too long many of
you may have taken the show for granted. It's good your concerned -
now go out an enroll your friends and associates into going so you can keep
the show right there in Milwaukee. It is after all up to
YOU, not Andon, not WOTC, not SJG or Geo-Hex to make the show a
success. If GenCon '98 sets records for attendance and money, those companies
will be back!
We can't blaim
> the companies for wanting to stay away.
Oh yes we can! They stay away at their peril! GenCon is the GAMES INDUSTRY on
display!
> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Alfredo Lorente wrote:
> How many people actually go to those smaller "engagements"? And for
The smaller engagements is all we've got in the Greater Seattle area. The
largest gaming con is Dragonflight, and even that generally only runs
between 600-1000 attendees. Then there's Enfilade put on by the NWHMGS
which fills one ballroom plus a couple meeting rooms. There are other medium
sized regional conventions which I don't get to, but nothing like what's
available in California or the east coast. How does Great Britain and the
other European nations fair?
I've always been impressed to see KR from Geo-hex at the 'major'
northwest conventions (he is out of Oregon after all). It's nice to have our
US source for GZG products relatively easily available. I hope he gets out to
the major conventions east of the Rockies.
> W. Nitsche wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Alfredo Lorente wrote:
One of the things I miss since moving to the US of A from the UK is the bigger
game shows. The two big ones I used to go too where, Salute and Colours.
Salute was a one day show but was huge and just about all the manufactures
were there and colours was a weekend and was even bigger.
> One of the things I miss since moving to the US of A from the UK is
Without any sarcasm, lets point out a difference in geographic scale. In
Canada, distances are long and that is one of the reasons we probably don't
have as much activity as we otherwise could based on strictly population of
gamers. For a lot of us to get to a major Con like GenCon or Origins, it's a
bit of an expedition. For example, a crew of us from Ottawa are headed to
Lancaster Pennsylvania for the
GZG con down there.... and it's a good 8-10 hour drive each way.
That's a non-trivial distance to a lot of folks. I'd love it if we
were as tightly packed (in some ways) as Britain. It would be great to have it
easy and relatively cheap to pull together a lot of companies and gamers. Big
cons can be a lot of fun.
:) Tom.
/************************************************
> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Alfredo Lorente wrote:
The
> largest gaming con is Dragonflight, and even that generally only runs
Well, over here EuroGenCon is our only sizeable RPG show, but we have a
load of wargame shows of varying sizes. EGC is usually around 1500-2000
attendees, so it is still VERY small compared to US GenCon. A 10'
tradestand cost us £250 last year, but for EGC '98 it is up to £300 -
a 20% increase, not as bad as the US one but still bad enough. This makes it
more
expensive than the biggest wargame show (Salute, a one-day show with
about 3000 people in) which costs us more like £270 for 12' of stand. At an
average, at Salute we take 50-100% more in the one day than we do over 4
days at EGC.
Our smaller shows are usually 300-500 people, but the stands tend to
only
cost £20 - £50 and we can still take a proportionate amount per head
of customers.
EGC is held at Loughborough University campus, and uses student accommodation
for the attendees; the dealers' room is a single sports hall, the gaming is in
other halls. Salute is held in Kensington Town Hall, and fills the building
(two large halls and many smaller rooms), while most provincial wargame shows
tend to be in sports halls, leisure centres and such.
Remember that the UK is small enough that we can drive to most shows on the
day (even if it means a 4am start!), and only at a very few do we have to stay
over the night before the show. We also tend to see a lot of the same regular
customers at lots of the shows, as some people seem to get to nearly
everything! When I came over for GenCon '96, the concept of everything for the
trade stand having been shipped by road days (weeks?) before, then the stand
crew flying to the Con, seemed REALLY strange.....
Getting more back to the original topic of this thread, EGC '97 was actually
pretty good, with the WoTC presence not too overpowering (OK, the usual crop
of Shufflers and Deckheads, but a lot of good gaming going on as
well) - most of the traders live in the bar after the dealers' room
shuts anyway, so it doesn't matter a lot to them...;) '98 will be interesting,
however; I really hope it doesn't start to go the way that the US one is, if
the rumours are right. Sadly, that seems to be what happens once Big Business
(and thus Accountants) takes an interest in a "little" industry like ours.....
:(
Interested in coming to Canberra in Australia? Our club runs a
convention called CANCON over the Australia Day Weekend (24-26 January).
We get about 650 people, two hundred of those are wargamers, 350 are
roleplayers and the rest are magic and board gamers. Full Thrust runs plus
hopefully Dirtside and Star Grunt demos.
Simon LeRay-Meyer
CANCON Dealer Co-Ordinator
[quoted original message omitted]
On Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:50:41 -0500, Thomas Barclay
> <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> wrote:
> In Canada, distances are long and that is one of the reasons we
How true. From Toronto to Milwaukee it's about 11 to 12 hours, depending on
how long you spend at rest stops. That's a distance of 1100 km. In Europe you
can pass through several countries in that distance.
On the other hand, Toronto is also within a ten hour DRIVE of about 100
million people.
> I'd love it if we
Brits have a trouble "getting" the scale of North America. In 1992, my wife
and I visited Scotland. We drove on average about 150 miles per day, a rather
leisurely drive for North Americans. When we drove from Aberdeen to Inverness
(180 miles) we were asked where we were going to stay for the night along the
way. I mean, you couldn't do that distance in one DAY now can you? Mind you,
most British roads aren't like our highway systems, where you can average 60
miles per hour on
US roads (and about 120 km/hour on Ontario's highway 401).
On Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:59:52 +0000, "Geo-Hex" <geohex@teleport.com>
wrote:
> What may be happening to them is that they lose
The GenCon worries are beginning to look a bit like a tempest in a tea cup.
First, you may be right about the profitability. Some people have indicated
that GenCon may have been losing money for TSR. The price increase may have
been inevitable for GenCon to survive.
Second, Andon has announced that 60% of GenCon's dealer room space sold out in
48 hours. It seems that a number of large companies have curtailed their
spending and shrunk their booth sizes. Chaosium, for instance, has gone from 8
booths to 4. On the other hand, smaller companies who have always been shut
out when the larger ones took up the bulk of the space are now getting a
chance at a booth. We may end up with MORE individual companies, and thus more
choice, at this GenCon than ever before.
Third, some companies for whom GenCon was marginal are not going but
they are pooling their resources. I got an e-mail from one company
that says three other companies aren't going but they will send stuff to sell
with him. If a number of the small companies do this, we could see a much
higher density of games than any previous year.
John Tynes of Pagan Publishing (excellent Call of Cthulhu stuff, by the way)
says that Pagan made 20% of its yearly revenue at GenCon 97. Obviously for
some of the smaller companies that are poorly distributed GenCon is a godsend.
SJG has been shrinking its presence at GenCon for a while. They now state that
they will not sponsor events at GenCon. Maybe the boycott will spread.
Personally, I think it has gone as far as it will go and that the boycotting
companies are shooting themselves in the foot. A company shouldn't decide on
attending based on emotions anyway. If it makes good business sense, they
should go. If the business case doesn't support it, they shouldn't go. Simple
as that.
By the way, great job on the Geo-Hex booth last year. The amount of
stuff you guys managed to pack into that size of booth (was that two booths
together?) was amazing. Far more of the larger companies would do better if
they thought more creatively about the space they used. Hanging your product
up instead of placing it on a table saved a lot of space.
> On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Ground Zero Games wrote:
> Well, over here EuroGenCon is our only sizeable RPG show, but we have
Interesting... the Finnish RopeCon (http://www.hut.fi/~ropecon --
hmmm...
it seems the English info pages are not up yet) rates about 1000-1500
(for
a three-day period), and it still seems to be growing. Then again, it's
the only con we have...
> Our smaller shows are usually 300-500 people, but the stands tend to
When I was running Finnish Roleplayers' Association (89-92 or so),
50-100
was a good attendance. Things have definitely exploded since.
PLease don't send MIME encoded stuff to this list.
I can't read it
> On the other hand, Toronto is also within a ten hour DRIVE of about
Yes but (without offending), Toronto is a Soul-less Wasteland....
(grin)
> like our highway systems, where you can average 60 miles per hour on
I can attest to the fact you can average higher speeds than this on even North
American secondary highways like Hwy 15....
I guess the point remains though that you get things like someone asking your
average Canadian "You're from Toronto? I know Bob
something or other from Toronto. Do you know him?" (TO has 6-7
million if you count the outlying burbs). You also get the "Well I'm in TO
too, lets get together, since we live in the same town.... what do you mean
it'll take 3 hours to get there?". Canada is built on a scale most Europeans
probably can't imagine until they visit (many Canucks that don't travel can't
either....) and that is why newsgroups like this and the Internet are a great
way to meet and interact with other gamers..... In NetSpace, No one can see
you fudge a die roll or chit pull.... (grin).
:) Tom.
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