Whining from foreigners.

> --- "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com> wrote:

> The point is that they have had a significant amount

Freedom ain't free. If the French (or anyone else) have a problem with paying
the price they can go back to being serfs. Life ain't all hanging out in
cafes, smoking unfiltered cigarettes, drinking cheap wine, and writing
incomprehensible poetry.

> Freedom ain't free. If the French (or anyone else)

That tragedy of World War 1 was that for most major combatants, freedom was
NOT at stake. They paid entirely too high a price for what should have been
a limited regional war between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the
Russian Empire. What when wrong, idiot politicians driven by incompetent
generals. The generals did not have plans to deal with limited regional wars
and the politicians didn't have the guts to enough to tell the generals no.

> John Atkinson wrote:

No. YOu have to get a lot of America bashing in there too.

> --- "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com> wrote:

> That tragedy of World War 1 was that for most major

Heh... on this one, we agree. I've never figured out what the hell the French
were smoking to conclude an alliance with the Russians, with whom they have
nothing in common and few joint interests other than a
burning fear/envy/inferiority complex regarding
Germany.

Having said that, once their idiot politicians (and are Americans the only
ones that believe in holding our politicos responsible for stupidity??) got
them into the war, I would suggest that at least a certain amount of the
freedom of the French people as a whole would be circumscribed had they lost.

> smoking unfiltered cigarettes, drinking cheap wine,

The wine isn't cheap... And is definitely necessary for the understanding (and
possible enjoyment) of the poetry.

[quoted original message omitted]

> Having said that, once their idiot politicians (and

That I doubt. Germany had no desire to conquer France. Defeat France to end
the war in the west, yes. Germany had already taken back
Alscae-Loraine
in the Franco Prussian War. This was NOT 1939.

> I suspect that was quite enough reason, especially after 1870/71.

Actually, that was the good news for France. The bad news was that Germany
also had a higher birthrate at that time. So the situation was only going to
get much worse with time.

> Just look at all the alliances that were made up at one time or
Who
> would have thought in 1988 that the US would fight a war with Syria on

Politics makes strange bedfellows...

> Would have depended on the way the war ended, I guess. For a total

I doubt a total defeat would have limited freedoms in France (unless you were
one of the dead). Germany had no desire to rule France.

Offlist...

Imre A. Szabo schrieb:
> I doubt a total defeat would have limited freedoms in

I am not too familiar with the period, and I doubt the WWI German
government had a coherent idea about the post-war order. Some of the
ideas I have seen mentioned were pretty harsh - think Versailles in
reverse.

Greetings

KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de schrieb:
> Offlist...

Oops sorry.
I should have changed the receiver before sending off that e-mail.
No harm done, I guess (except wasting bandwidth)

Greetings

On Thu, 30 May 2002 20:34:18 -0700 (PDT), John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> wrote:

> (and

Geez, John, give some warning when you let off a funny. I almost choked on my
Diet Coke.

I haven't seen _anything_ that suggests that Americans are any better at
holding their politicians responsible for stupidity than Canadians, or Brits,
or anyone else for that matter. Of course, I'm somewhat biased in that I'm in
Louisiana. (40 states have higher taxes than LA; LA is near the bottom in
education, health, crime and the environment; LA's governor wants to lower
taxes... no one seems to see the stupidity here...). Still, I've seen it at
the federal level as well.

This is entirely off topic, but the American democratic system is no better at
curbing stupid politicians than any other democratic system.

> --- Randall L Joiner <rljoiner@mindspring.com> wrote:

Talking about California now, Right? The DTs do change the ability to
comprehend poetry, not necessarily improve, but change.

Nope, speaking specifically about French wine and poetry. Then again, I

have to be fairly drunk in order to read French... That whole thing having to
be in the same state of mind to do something, as you were when learning it.
(College... Where I learned you can do partial deriviatives while
drunk, playing lemmings, with a sticky/broken mouse, at a party, and
call it studying for your final.)

Cali wines are pretty cheap, and don't generally attract a lot of snooty

people.

California on the other hand, is impossible to understand. I, of course, live
outside the asylum. Moved there after reading the directions on the back of a
box of toothpicks.

Rand.

> At 04:42 PM 5/31/02 -0700, you wrote:

> --- Randall L Joiner <rljoiner@mindspring.com> wrote:

> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:

> Would have depended on the way the war ended, I

Wouldn't they have been stuck with reparations, destruction of border
fortifications, etc.? That's a loss of freedom.

> > Would have depended on the way the war ended, I

Why? Those are very temporary conditions. Being forced to live under another
countries laws (or under their authority) is a very different matter.

> --- "Imre A. Szabo" <ias@sprintmail.com> wrote:

There's a difference between "loss of freedom" and "loss of all freedom".

On Thu, 30 May 2002 20:34:18 -0700 (PDT) John Atkinson
> <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com> writes:
<snip>
> Having said that, once their idiot politicians (and

John, we seem to keep re-electing them in some cases (Hint: I'm from
Missouri) despite all their know illegal activities. And othe others do
replace them in various ways but we tend not to read their newspapers and
periodicals at all (Only reason I read the web pages of the BBC is
"Research" - I LOVE my job description!)

Gracias,