--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: Glenn M Wilson <warbeads@juno.com>
To: ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com,
WorldWarIISkirmish@yahoogroups.com,LaceWars@yahoogroups.com,
Early_American_Wars@yahoogroups.com,ChristianWargamesGroup@yahoogroups.c
om, ancmed@yahoogroups.com,REMPAS@yahoogroups.com,
FrenchRevolutionaryWars@yahoogroups.com,triphibious@juno.com,
Dwarf_warrior@juno.com
Cc: warbeads@juno.com, WilsonG@nima.mil
Subject: When does skirmish scale becomes battle scale?
Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 09:07:07 EDT
Message-ID: <20010402.061648.6607.2.warbeads@juno.com>
Please excuse the cross-posting and please forgive me if you are not a
miniatures enthusiast?
A question on morality of miniatures/war games and an unrelated question
on previewing miniatures before buying (Web, shop, friend) started a thread of
thought that became a question. I pass it on to you. I realize this is OT for
ChristianWargamesGroup@yahoogroups.com but I welcome you contributions (off
that list to not spam it with OT replies
-
compounding my (pun alert) sin.) also.
Okay, after all that -
Where does the ratio of figure to persons cross over from 'skirmish' to
'battle'?
I ran through a mental list of all the rules - those I had played with
(owned some like chainmail, Dirtside 2, Gygax's only historical rules -
Classic Warfare, TSATF, etc.) or had contact with - of ratio's and made
this list:
Okay the first two are clearly "skirmish" but where does "battle" begin:
1:1 1:5 1:10
1:20-25 (lumped them)
1:30-33 (ditto)
1:50 1:60 1:100
And I am sure there others but this should suffice, I would think.
OH, and just how many angels *can* dance on the head of a pin?? <grin>
Okay the first two are clearly "skirmish" but where does "battle" begin:
Ratio Size Troop Unit Scale
Rules
1:1 Role Playing Hero Scale
FMASk
1:5 Skirmish Squad Scale
SG
1:10 Skirmish Company Scale DS, TSATF
1:20-25 (lumped them) Tactical
Battalion Scale Johnny Reb
1:30-33 (ditto) Tactical Brigade
Scale Command Decision 1:50 Battle Division Scale
Empire
1:60 Battle Corps Scale Fire and Fury 1:100 Battle Army Scale
Napoleon's Battles/VnB
Troop Unit Scale refers to the base maneuver unit (group of figures) or Player
command level. Other determinations are ground scale, time scale and scope. At
skirmish ground scales where rooms, windows and doors are matters. At Battle
ground scales you just need to know where the towns are. At skirmish scales
you really should not see reinforcements or off board support. At Battle
scales you see the specialists that larger organizations can support. Because
time and distance are compressed (Larger ratios per inch or turn)
reinforcements and support (Air, Artillery, etc.) become more common. FWIW,
Fields of Honor covers ALL of these scales (not well, but there are things
that you can use).
Hope this helps,
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 09:43:43 EDT, Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> Okay the first two are clearly "skirmish" but where does "battle"
begin:
> 1:1
Depends on your definition of "skirmish". In a military sense, a skirmish can
be anything up to a couple hundred, and more, soldiers. A skirmish had certain
implications: small, not many casualties, short length of time. You could have
a skirmish with a couple hundred cavalry officers a side in the Civil War. On
the other hand, a modern special operations raid with the commandos having
less than 50 soldiers wouldn't necessarily be called a skirmish. It would be a
raid, if not necessarily a "battle". But it wouldn't be a skirmish because
implied in the military term is a short time span.
In the wargaming sense, it's a matter of how many figures you put on the table
top. Skirmish wargames imply that the game is played at the single figure
level. That doesn't mean that the scale is 1:1, but rather that the decisions
are being made for a single figure.
For instance, I don't consider Stargrunt II a skirmish game. Although 1:1, the
individual figures are essentially just casualty markers and bookkeeping
pieces. You could play the same game on a hex mapsheet with each squad being
represented by one or two counters, ala Squad Leader. FMA I consider skirmish.
Here are the terms I had described to me, and which I like to use:
Skirmish: big games would contain a platoon per side, but usually just a
couple of squads per side down to a minimum of 1 figure per side. Each figure
represents 1 person. Games: FMA Skirmish, Gunslinger, Necromunda, BattleLust,
Battleground: World War II.
Subtactical: games with a platoon per side up to about a company or two per
side. Usually figures represent 1 person, but you may have a stand represent a
squad or fireteam. Usually no worse than 1 figure = 5 people. Games: Stargrunt
II, Squad Leader, Battleground: World War II.
Tactical: games with a battalion per side up to about a division per side.
Unlikely to be played at the one figure = 1 person scale. Games: Johnny Reb,
Fire and Fury, Dirtside II, Panzer Leader, Panzerblitz.
Grand Tactical: popular for recreating battles from the 19th century back, as
the ground scale can still encompass an entire battlefield. Anything from a
brigade per side to an entire army per side. There are modern Grand Tactical
games, but they usually have to abstract the terrain far more than
pre-20th
century. Games: Fire and Fury, DBA, DBM, Piquet, Sid Meir's Gettysburg.
Operational: I haven't seen many operational miniatures games. Usually
operational games work with anything from a division per side up to an army.
They were VERY popular at one point as board games (seemed most of what SPI
pumped out were operational). It's where you see the manoeuvring of armies
that leads up to an actual battle. Games: Great Battles of the American Civil
War series (Stonewall Jackson's Way, Here Come the Rebs, etc.), Great Battle
of the Second World War, many "matrix" games.
Strategic: covers the movement of entire armies in a single theatre, or a huge
campaign. Usually at least an army, and quite often several, per side. I
haven't seen many strategic games in miniature, either, though I did see one
matrix game dealing with the Scottish War of Independence. Games: Third Reich,
Bobby Lee/Sam Grant.
Grand Strategic: wargame that covers an entire war, or series of wars. This is
a big game. Ground has to be so abstracted that it's not usually done as a
miniatures game (though you do find games that use miniatures just to make it
look more appealing aesthetically). Each side usually covers several armies
and army groups a side. Games: Axis and Allies, SPI's Third World War, Risk,
Imperium.
As usual, Allan can say it better than I can.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:33:15 -0400, Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> You could have
D'oh! I meant cavalry soldiers...
Allan Goodall awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto: http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
"Now, see, if you combine different colours of light,
you get white! Try that with Play-Doh and you get
brown! How come?" - Alan Moore & Kevin Nolan,
"Jack B. Quick, Boy Inventor"
On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:33:15 -0400, Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> In the wargaming sense, it's a matter of how many figures you put on
Yea Gods, I ought to stop writing when I'm running on too little sleep and too
many Timbits.
Rewritten:
In the wargaming sense, it's a matter of how many soldiers you put on the
table top. Skirmish wargames imply that the game is played at the single
soldier level. That doesn't mean that the scale is 1:1, but rather that the
decisions are being made for a single soldier.
As an ex-NCO I think it might be funny... I mean fun, of course, to
watch "...a skirmish with a couple hundred cavalry officers a side in the
Civil War..." especially two groups of early Union types. <grin>
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious (American Mongrel)
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines! (Die, Ralnai, Die!)
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar Conflicts
and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 20:44:34 -0400 Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
writes:
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:33:15 -0400, Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2001, Allan Goodall wrote:
> On Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:33:15 -0400, Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
wrote:
> >In the wargaming sense, it's a matter of how many figures you put on
I was just struck by how very, very Canadian a sentence that is, Allan.
Nobody, but nobody, who doesn't live under the maple leaf is going to have a
clue what a Timbit is.
The rest of the world would call them 'donut holes' I guess - donut
dough in small balls, treated just like donuts are. Timbits comes from a
Canada-wide chain called Tim Horton's...
Our severly-OT Canadian moment... (although, given gamer's snack-food
obsession, is it really OT?)
In a message dated 4/4/01 5:57:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
> yh728@victoria.tc.ca writes:
> The rest of the world would call them 'donut holes' I guess - donut
I have an affinity for donut holes while gaming as well. I was almost a
Canadian (being born in Buffalo, New York is about as Yankee as you can be and
NOT be a Canadian). Anyway a game ceases being a skirmish game when the figure
on the table represents MORE than one man.
> On Wed, 04 April 2001, Brian Burger wrote:
> Nobody, but nobody, who doesn't live under the maple leaf is going to
Not true! I know that Tim Horton's has made some in-roads into the US.
There's one just outside of Toledo, Ohio, for instance. And I have some very
close American friends who know exactly what I'm talking about (and one who
likes to virtually smack me every time I mention Tim's
doughnuts...).