Whatever (was a lot of things)

4 posts · Jun 15 2000 to Jun 16 2000

From: Mikko Kurki-Suonio <maxxon@s...>

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 11:00:29 +0300 (EEST)

Subject: Re: Whatever (was a lot of things)

> Örjan:

> The FT2 sensor rules aren't strictly required. OTOH, neither are

If optional rule A requires you to also use optional rule B, the book should
say so. I was, perhaps wrongly, under the impression you could mix and match
freely.

> Why use interceptable freighters? Because 12 thrust-15 freighters

This is getting a bit extreme... but okay. (Why not just one bigger
transport?)

> Can you afford to maintain the 12 thrust-15 freighters during times of

Skip peacetime. Economics is not (at least yet) part of the game. But this
does present an interesting problem:

What is the most efficient way of delivering a standard unit of cargo? Exactly
how many slower transports you are going to lose? Escorts?

> From a more meta point of view: Given a scenario and freedom to custom

> You're quite correct, of course. My bad; I should have made sure you

So you think the game won't work otherwise?

> your own [...]" (FT2 p.2) and "Have fun, and above all: DON'T PLAY THE

Ermm, that's just what I said a couple of weeks back. But IMHO, to be able to
play the game, the rules must support it 100%.

I would like a game that you could play well understanding only the basic
principles -- without actually knowing the rules. Unfortunately, most
games reward people who memorize loopholes, little glitches, breakpoints,
optimization tricks etc.

Ever seen a chess player accused of cheesy tactics?

> Since you are quite obviously not happy with the FT and FB rules as

Well, your memory seems somewhat selective. Just this week I posted a variant
table floating method. Whose DS2 hit tables are you analyzing? Who's putting
down real money to seek solutions the the interception
problem (*and* posted some initial calculations/solutions a few weeks
back)? Who posted an extensive list of campaign requirements?

IMHO, you have to understand the problem before you can try to solve it. In
many cases with FT, we still have a lot of understanding to do...

Treat the cause, not the symptoms.

> Or, if

Love it or leave it, eh? Because it's a bloody good game. The basic core is
pretty sound. It's *worth* making better.

I have literally _scores_ of other games that just lie on the shelf.
They're all broken in some way, but I never bothered to let their authors
know -- because I couldn't see anything to be gained there.

And, since I don't get to actually play as much as I used to, good games
provide interesting intellectual challenges.

> Over the past few years you've always given a

Actually, I don't personally, but I play with people who do. In any case, I
think having all rules printed is a basic requirement for fairness. Would you
play tennis on a court without painted boundaries? Who'd get to decide whether
the ball was in or not?

Assume you are playing against me (I seem to have reattained suitable demonic
status by now). I pull out a trick that isn't strictly forbidden in the rules
but could be considered cheesy and illogical in wider view
--
and turn the game into a very boring no-brainer, perhaps even winning
it.
(For a concrete example, let's say I try the old suicide-FTL trick)
(Yes, I know it's been fixed)

Do you:

a) Congratulate me and secretly plan to return the favor. b) Stop playing with
me, because I'm such a sneaky git. I should have telepathically known that the
tactic isn't really legal.
c) Start developing a counter-tactic using another loophole.
d) Note that the rule is broken and/or too vaguely defined and throw
together a quick fix.
e) Note that the rule is broken and/or too vaguely defined, discuss
the matter with me, analyze the problem thoroughly, consult others, and lobby
for a comprehensive, reasoned, logical and universal fix.

Personally, I'm an E-type of guy ;-)

> Depends. If you play with FT2 only, all of the Advanced Rules are

Okay. Perhaps we see printed word to that effect in FT3? Does everyone else
agree?

Maybe I should go buy some black ping pong balls...

From: Kevin Walker <sage@c...>

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 03:31:03 -0500

Subject: Re: Whatever (was a lot of things)

> on 6/15/00 3:00, Mikko Kurki-Suonio at maxxon@swob.dna.fi wrote:

--->8--- (snip)

> Why use interceptable freighters? Because 12 thrust-15 freighters

Besides the cost issue there could be other issues involved. Packaging of the
cargo (especially troops) might not handle thrust 15 (or even 6) very well.
Maybe greater acceleration burns up fuel faster than a slower acceleration to
the same target velocity. The FT rules don't go into this
of course and it's best left up to the game/campaign but these are items
to consider.

Another consideration is that some of these transport ships may not be full
military vessels although not with troop transports.  ;-)  True, few
governments probably employ civilian transport into combat zones these day,
but there is always the possibility that to keep logistics fleet costs down
some FT militaries might employ contracted transport ships. Thus the military
designers might not have the ability to design the vessels involved in this
capacity.

Another issue is as the thrust rating on a transport vessel goes up other
factors beside carrying capacity are decreased. Armor, shields, PDS, etc.
are all possible mass/cost cutting targets.  Besides escort vessels for
these transports may still be needed even if only for the final few
minutes/hours of the trip, a time when the transports may not be able to
use their speed if they intend to land their troops or dock at a station.

--->8---

> From a more meta point of view: Given a scenario and freedom to custom

This problem comes up a lot if the players know the specifics of the scenario
before hand, a luxury few ship designers have when laying down ship
designs.  I like the idea of giving a basic premise - You're
transporting
troops for an invasion of a planet - once the ships (and designs) are
decided upon the specifics of the mission are provided.

> I would like a game that you could play well understanding only the

Ahhh...but chess doesn't allow you to design the game pieces that are used on
the board or to alter the composition of the forces usually unless you're
playing some sort of variant.  ;-)

--->8---

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 20:07:38 -0400

Subject: Re: Whatever (was a lot of things)

[quoted original message omitted]

From: KH.Ranitzsch@t... (K.H.Ranitzsch)

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 07:29:54 +0100

Subject: Re: Whatever (was a lot of things)

> Kevin Walker wrote:

In the last serious naval war (the Falklands) virtually all the logistics
and troops transport vessels were ex-civilian transports, from passenger
liners to container vessels. One of the latter was even used as an
ad-hoc
aircraft carrier

> > Ever seen a chess player accused of cheesy tactics?

Have you ever followed the world chess championships? Sure, game rules were
strictly defined, but there was a lot of cheesy meta-gaming stuff going
on (complaints about the shape of the figures, the game schedule, chairs,
lighting, food, protests about hypnotic influencing by the opponent and all
kinds of psychological tricks)

Greetings Karl Heinz