What the hell is this? Re: [fh] nac vexilliology

I'm lost..I get my email up and running properly again and the list has turned
into a discussion on heraldic shields and other oddness.

Where did this come from? I don't have time to wade through the backlog of
messages to figure it out...

> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:06:12 Niall Gilsenan wrote:

Lost? Try Hare Krishna.:)

> turned into a discussion on heraldic shields and other oddness.

When we last left our heroes:

It started as a discussion of music listned to during games. Migrated to what
national anthems might be for the future power blocs. Mutated into a
discussion about the flags and livery these power blocs might use. Devolved
into quibbles about heraldic terminology. Killed by an incensed KoL, who is in
fact, the Ultimate Sniper.:)

Somwhere in all this, some actual designs for NAC battle standards were
produced, but the website escapes me at the moment. Nifty Dan Dare links,
though.:)

If you're still utterly baffled by all this tommyrot, increase the confusion
by going to:
http://www.best.com/~mroeder/humor/haroldry/index.html

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While it's already been declared OT by J. White, it's a thread that
occasionally finds it's way back to GZG territory. Basically, the debate has
been how to set up NAC insignia on FT ships that includes reference to
subsidiary, if you will, states. Fer instance, with red dragon/wyvern
for my Welsh fleets.

Also, I swear the book said 'en passant.' ;->=

The_Beast

In a message dated 98-10-28 16:39:22 EST, you write:

<<
I agree with Niall; lets keep it with GZG, ie., new rules, weapons,
 senarios, Order-of-battle, battle reports, and such.  I am killing
average 5 emails until I get to one with GZG material. To those who have been
sending out new ideas for GZG gaming, great job!
> [quoted text omitted]

Well, let me then *disagree*. I don't have much time for playing, so yet more
rules for situations I've never run into and won't run into for *years* (if
I'm lucky), new weapons when I've not played with the old ones much, scenarios
I won't use cuz I've already got a backlog on them, these juse make MEGO. The
discussion on the NAC vexilliology (and related topics) has been absolutely
fasinating. I've been *looking* for the darned posts on this topic, since the
others hold no interest for me. The last bit on what colors and whatnot can be
superimposed on each other has been a bit off topic, I'll admit, but most of
it has been fleshing out the official GZG backround, making it no less off
topic than the thread or two about the physiology and psychology of the
Kra'Vak that ran a few weeks back. I didn't hear anyone else, much less the
list admin, complaining back then.

Don

> At 17:08 28/10/98 EST, you wrote:
The
> discussion on the NAC vexilliology (and related topics) has been
The problem I had was that all I read was to do with heraldry and whether a
creature is a Dragon or a Wyvern.   Whats worse is that this was
becoming a point of contention! Maybe if I looked at the start of the thread
that would have made more sense. I'm not trying to censor what goes on on the
list (I've been on it long enough now to know better) I was just wondering if
someone could point out how it went from a topic on NAC to an
in-depth
discussion on heraldry (interesting as it is also).

In recent times this list has got busier than it ever was so I find that where
I once used to read every message I now can only skim through them. As for the
Kra'vak I suppose I didn't complain because this topic really interests me. We
have very little background on them whereas I can make an educated guess about
the NAC based as they are on America, Britain, and Canada.

Anyway I've just managed to waste more bandwidth for everyone.

> Well, let me then *disagree*. I don't have much time for playing, so
The
> discussion on the NAC vexilliology (and related topics) has been

Not that we want to get into an on-list debate about what should be
on-list... but to add my 2 cents worth - I think it is worthwhile to be
able to discuss things that are not game-specific (rules, scenarios, new
weapons, etc).  I agree with Don here - the discussion on heraldry
(while getting a bit obscure and off track) was for a while developing ideas
that could flesh out the universe. Several of us have been discussing "things
military" in a more general sense, such as the comparisons between where
things are at now and where they are going in the near future in our various
countries. These games are military by their nature, and for those of us who
aren't either amateur military historians or serving members, investigating
what we know and what we think will happen is valuable when
developing our own histories/campaign settings/TOEs/etc etc.  The
rules/weapons/scenarios don't exist in a vacuum - there is a world of
knowledge around them that isn't GZG specific, but is obviously related and
relevant. Is there no place for that here? In the last week, we've discussed
Snipers, Genetic Engineering, Anthems, Ship Design ideas, FTL
concepts, European Heraldry, etc etc - ALL of which have relevance to
the games and universe we are collectively creating.

Just to throw in a wrench... in all the discussions about markings and symbols
for the GZG future states, I don't remember much comment about the
non-Europeans.  We ended up debating the usage of "en-passant", but
nobody
gave thoughts on markings/symbols/flags for the Africans, ESU (?),
Indonesians, etc. Is this thread totally dead, or does anybody have thoughts.
I'm just about to start painting a platoon of ESU troopers, and have been
looking for ideas for vehicle markings, etc....

Any thoughts on either idea here?

> Well, let me then *disagree*. I don't have much time for playing, so
The
> discussion on the NAC vexilliology (and related topics) has been
I don't mean to criticize but I supsect you are in a (very) minority situation
there. *MOST* of the people on this list are regular gamers and as such a
regular supply of new ideas, be they ship designs, scenarios etc are quite
welcome. While the discussion of heraldry and flags was quite interesting *it
is not what this list is about*. You wouldn't expect your bank manager to
start discussing his bad back when you are trying to get your finances sorted
out. It's not *appropriate* and that's why I asked for it to be taken off the
list. I have no problem with people conmtinuing the discussion in private if
they wish, but as far as this list goes it was noise, pure and simple.

> The last bit on what colors and whatnot can be
Hmm... I have sort of a rule of thumb about these things. If it seems decent
material for a sourcebook, I let it roll. It seemed to me some detail on the
Krav'Vak would be interesting in FB6: Kra'Vak hordes (or whatever). If I
bought an FT sourcebook and all it had in it were paint schemes and flag
designs, I'd be mightily upset. I know that's only my opinion but then as list
admin I have to use my judgement to make these decisions.

                        TTFN
                                Jon

> Not that we want to get into an on-list debate about what should be

> relevant. Is there no place for that here? In the last week, we've
That's as maybe. But the heraldry thread had moved too far away from base
point -GZG games. I don't object to general discussions provided I can
see a worthwhile path back to the use of a GZG product. I don't think *anyone*
would argue that whether a dragon is a dragon or a wyvern is *in any way*
related to GZG at all.

> Is this thread totally dead, or does anybody have thoughts. I'm just
TBH, I think any SG/DS period trooper wearing anything other than
appropriate camoflague is dead meat very quickly on the battlefield. I have
one set of SG figures painted dark green /brown camo and one using
shades
of grey urban/arctic camo. I doubt you would get any modern soldier to
wear
a red/blue uniform in combat even if you issued them.

                                TTFN
                                        Jon

I agree with Niall; lets keep it with GZG, ie., new rules, weapons,
senarios, Order-of-battle, battle reports, and such.  I am killing
average 5 emails until I get to one with GZG material. To those who have been
sending out new ideas for GZG gaming, great job!

> Niall Gilsenan wrote:

Jonathan spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >Is this thread totally dead, or does anybody have thoughts. I'm just

Of course, my advanced cammie-jammies may change colours to both
natural terrain (whichever I'm in making me near invisible) or to a dress
uniform pattern (bright colours for parades). Maybe this justifies hidden
units (to poke another thread) as your troops blend with the background....
(griN). And it justifies outrageous paint jobs as the figures are merely in
garrison dress or dress uniforms.

(As Mr.A would say, If you need the smiley to know I'm kidding, you've got big
problems...)

Tom.

In message <3.0.6.32.19981028180114.007deb00@idirect.com> Adrian Johnson
writes:
> Just to throw in a wrench... in all the discussions about markings and

Well, classic soviet-republic-style national symbols tends be
circular and consist of a landscape of industrial equipment, surrounded by
sheaves of wheat and scrolls declaiming a suitable motto in multiple
languages. Soviet and Chinese iconography in general showcases stylised
peasants and workers gazing forward into a glorious future, often with the
appropriate glorious leader pointing the way. Note also the famous "Lenin
hailing a taxi" image. Red stars and heroic slogans abound.

On Thursday, 29 October 1998 14:29, db-ft@westmore.demon.co.uk
> [SMTP:db-ft@westmore.demon.co.uk] wrote:

> Well, classic soviet-republic-style national symbols tends be

With lots of Good Young Communists gazing off into the future with the vague
'Who cut one?' look on their faces.

For a mind-bendingly funny view on life in the former Worker's Paradise,
get a copy of _USSR:From an Original Idea by Karl Marx_ by Marc Polonsky
and Russell Taylor.  Inside you will find tons-o-stuff about the Soviet
side of life (detailed instruction on how to bribe your way into a restaurant)
as well as a system for naming Soviet streets that works great for starship
names.