In message <Pine.LNX.3.91.970424114719.19157A-100000@swob.dna.fi> Mikko
> Kurki-Suonio writes:
I'm going to wilfully misinterpret the statement above, and restate it to try
to kick the points value thread in a slightly different direction.
What relatively good point systems do people know of that could provide a
useful reference... for writing point systems for our beloved GZG games? Or
games in general? What have you seen and liked (in part if not in whole)?
Also useful would be any system that spruces up a pick-up game
where players can bring a pre-generated force to an unreferee'd
game and arrive at something less than wholey bland.
So far as example we've had Heavy Gear, Armati and DBM. What else can people
throw into the ring?
...Also, since Stargrunt currently has no points system, maybe we could start
writing one for that...
PLEASE POST THE SGII POINT SET! We are playing weekly now and I'll gladly give
everyone a Sitrep!!
> David Brewer wrote:
Another useful mechanism for a points system is described in the Avalon Hill
game Squad Leader. This system was used for a random scenario generation by
which the boards, defensive units, and attacker and defender victory
conditions would be determined by a draw of a standard deck of cards.
Both players would then submit bids in terms of forces (and points) to acheive
the attacker's victory conditions. The low bidder would become the attacker
and the high bidder would receive the defender forces.
Instead of the points being used as a comparison between an attacking and
defending force, or a "balanced meeting engagement", the point system is used
to compare the values of two attacking forces.
In Full Thrust terms, a defensive fleet could be designed, any terrain
specified, and a victory condition for the attacker defined, such as the
destruction of a specific ship, complete elimination of the fleet, etc.
without the attacker losing 50% of his or her own point value. You could
specify either human technology only or one of the alien races.
I've been kicking around the idea for using this method for setting up another
PBeM game and having point bids used for determining sides for the players.
(snip)
> ...Also, since Stargrunt currently has no points system, maybe we
i already wrote one...but i can't seem to get my friends outta the cluches of
warhammer 40k...so it hasn't been tested... if i get any responce, maybe i'll
post it
chris
> At 03:02 AM 4/25/97 GMT, David Brewer wrote:
> I'm going to wilfully misinterpret the statement above, and
I know that there is someone out there who is groaning as they see my reply,
but tough toodles. West End Games Star Wars Miniatures Battles has a well done
point system game that integrates Heroes, Force Use, Heavy Weapons, Vehicles,
Morale and working linear formulas that allow all of these elements to be able
to be balanced together. There are a couple bugs, but the guys at WEG did a
good job. Since SWMB uses linear formulas for points, you can introduce new
equipment from the source books (They provide the conversions in the rules).
TSR's Battle System does the same thing for ancients and fantasy miniatures,
thus allowing magic, firearms and other issues to come in. However, their
formulas are not linear and so create problems for introducing new items, etc.
I like Dirtside II, but have not played enough of it. However, given the lack
of points systems in SGII, I am leary of buying a copy. I would enjoy playing
it if someone in the Bay area of California is willing to show me. Phil P.
> ...Also, since Stargrunt currently has no points system, maybe we
This is seemingly widespread. :-( So far my only 'success' against
WH40K has been to get my brother to try FT. He liked it...but still pours his
energies into WH40K (the good thing about this is he gets a bunch of minis
either extra cheap or free, and has passed on a few
to me here and there :-} I even now have my ruined building from the
current run of Epic!).
> if i get any responce, maybe i'll post it
Oh, yeah, sure, tease the listmembers here that you have one, but
don't post it. :-P
I, for one, would like to see it. I'm happy with SG2 not having a point
system, but I'd still be interested in seeing it.
Mk
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, You don't set foot on another world and celebrate
> by opening a can of ravioli! wrote:
> >> ...Also, since Stargrunt currently has no points system, maybe we
alright...i'll post the system some time tonight...when i get home...
chris
In message <9704251902.AA20601@nps.navy.mil> "Phillip E. Pournelle" writes:
> I know that there is someone out there who is groaning as they
Yeah? Oooooh, that makes me *mad*. Who is it? Where are you then
Groaning-Boy? Groaning right now are you? ARE YOU? Well you'll be
groaning when *I* get through with *you* Mister Groaner. You'll be groaning
for the REST OF YOUR NATURAL LIFE. How about *that*.
...where were we...
alright...heres the point system that i wrote up for SGII i was delayed
sending it out to the list by a brief and sorta unsucceful
expermint in networking (you wouldn't belive just how hard it is to find
a null modem cable where I live)
*** DISCLAMER ***
this point system is as yet untried... I still am meeting resistance from the
entrenched forces of GW and so i have never played a single game of SGII i
created the point system to help bring my friends out of their GW phase...much
as i used mekton to bring them out of their rifts phase:)
========================================================================
=====
The basic functions of this system are
1) purchase a number of troopers 1a) purchase their gear 2) purchase their
leader 2a) get his stuff:) 3) total the cost of the unit 4) apply experince
and morale modifers to the whole unit
========================================================================
=====
Trooper... your basic grunt. this inculdes vehicle crewmen (when i come up
with costs for vehicles) and crewmen for crew served guns...etc...etc...
10 pts
Leaders... one of these guys must be inculded in every unit...inculding
vehicle and crew served guns crews
level 3 15
level 2 25
level 1 50
Snipers this is one of the areas i am very leary of... let me know if these
costs are totally off the wall... remember I have never actually played the
game, i created this point system in hopes of drawing my friends away from GW
games
level 3 50
level 2 100
level 1 150
========================================================================
=====
Gear...the good stuff
all costs are per figure
Weapons (as good a place as any to start with) improvised weapon......free
light autopistol.......+1
Heavy autopistol.......+2
submechine gun.........+2
Autoshotgun *grin*.....+2
Hunting/civie rifles...+2
lowtech AR.............+3
w/grenade launcher.....+4
hightech AR............+4
w/grenade launcher.....+5
Gauss AR...............+5
w/grenade launcher.....+6
Support weapons...squad type stuff
Conventional Mechine gun...+10
Rotary style mechine gun...+12
Gauss mechine gun..........+14
Infantry plasma gun........+10
Multiple rocket pack.......+8
Automatic grenade launcher.+12
GSM/P......................+8
Infantry rocket............+10
Armor
ballistic fatigues.........+1
Partial light armor........+2
full light armor...........+3
power armor
slow light power armor.....+10
fast light power armor.....+15
slow heavy power armor.....+20
fast heavy power armor.....+25
Sniper rifles
Conventional Rifle.........+10
Laser rifle................+12
Gauss rifle................+12
HAMR.......................+14
> On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, David Brewer wrote:
> What relatively good point systems do people know of that could
Ogre has a simple but working system (but it's a simple game too). It also has
a number of "generic" scenarios.
Car Wars point system (dollars) takes another approach -- it's not
supposed to be balanced, optimization is the name of the game. This can work
as long as the players are experienced enough and like this sort of
thing.
Bidding systems are good (even Space Hulk used to have one), as long as BOTH
players are reasonably exprienced. If one is not, this is just
another way to bash newbies. It presents a problem with pre-design
tough.
It would be useful to pay for tactical flexibility. Not just sum of all units,
but extra for each independent unit. Thus you could go the soviet
way and increase manpower at the expense of flexibility.
> Also useful would be any system that spruces up a pick-up game
There are big problems here:
Part of predesign's idea is the surprise factor.
Army lists can be too long and complex to fully comprehend in limited time
anyway.
I think you'd need a working point system as a base anyway... but this could
be made work.
Possibly a selection of pre-generated generic scenarios. Players would
then bid away troops for the right to choose the scenario and the side to
play. Several variations can be thought of.
Or the agreed scenario could designate point ratios.
Simply swapping armies and playing it both ways is good a way to balance
the results, but could end up wasting twice the time in pointless battles.
Buying tactical advantages with points? E.g. I have a 300-pt force, you
have 500pts. I get 200pts. to buy terrain, victory conditions etc.
> ...Also, since Stargrunt currently has no points system, maybe we
IMHO, it's not as important, as at this level, well a grunt's a grunt. A
simple mancount gets you pretty far.