Interesting post on the German Pilot.
I think if you read Cross of Iron and (forget the other one) by Sven Hassle (I
think I got that right), you get a true (ugly) impression of
what the Eastern front might have been like. Stalingrad (non-US made
movie) might also be a good candidate.
That front was a real war of ideology complete with
you-do-unto-me-because-I-did-unto-thee ad-naseum. The Western Front was
a tough fight. The Eastern Front was one large scale atrocity from the
get-go.
And something tells me man vs. XT will end up about like that - war to
extinction. But that's just my cynicism creeping in.
Tomb
PS - Alan, great post on how to do a mini-campaign using scouts and
> --- Tomb <tomb@dreammechanics.com> wrote:
My suggestion is 'Hans Helmut Kurst' and any of the 'Gunner Ashe' series.
Bye for now,
From: "Tomb" <tomb@dreammechanics.com>
> PS - Alan, great post on how to do a mini-campaign using scouts and
Murky Bucket.
Some of the better games I've been in were ones involving limited knowledge on
both sides, and where both commanders were constrained by doctrine. And with
multiple players per side,where only the lowest level commanders actually
viewed the table.
In one of em, as a WARPAC commander, I had to order a subordinate 'shot' for
Disobeying a strict "Weapons Tight" policy vs aircraft coming from a
particular direction.
Channel A
"But they're F-111s!"
"I don't care if they're B-52s, DO NOT FIRE"
"I'm going to fire anyway."
"Out"
Channel B
"Commander company 3/A, take over Batallion 3 command effective
immediately. Switch to channel A. Out"
Channel C (played by the umpire) "Commissar 3 batallion, shoot Comander 3
Batallion, his replacement's on the way.
Out."
As it turned out, the F-111s were actually SU-24s off course. Not that
that mattered. They bombed us anyway.
John Leary schrieb:
> My suggestion is 'Hans Helmut Kurst' and any
That's Hans Helmut Kirst - just in case you want to look his book up.
Greetings
Dr.Lambshead (hoi folloi indeed!) said: Professional soldiers often have more
in common with each other than their own civilians. In WW1 at Xmas British and
German soldiers in France played a football match in no man's land (they won
as usual at football).
[Tomb] Familial anecdote: My Grandad fought with the British (Scottish)
16th HLI through some of the uglier parts of the war (Somme, Pursuit to
Mons, a few other notable battles - IIRC). When I was younger, we talked
about the technical bits (guns, horses, etc) and the mud and disease and
shortage of food. I heard tales of people looting (yes even allies) and of an
inspection by King George (IIRC) and some Generals. But never did we talk
about the killing (I was young, so I didn't notice the omission). I can't
imagine my Grandad killing people, which is funny
because I know for a time he was a Lewis-gunner. I know he fought in the
trenches and no-man's land with the infantry. He probably event fought
close assaults. But I still can't imagine the man I knew doing anyone harm.
He didn't seem to blame the German soldier directly, because he knew they
(like him) were over there because they had to be. He himself joined because
employment was hard to find and he was the eldest son of a big family (so
going to the war was an income for the family). And yet, when we lived in
Medicine Hat, a predominantly Germanic community in the prairies (leftover
from the WW2 PoW camp I understand), he never spoke to our neighbours other
than what he had to. They were nice, he was aloof.
It wasn't till he was in the dementia of his deathbead and reliving some past
memories that we heard things like
"Shhh, quiet Johnny, the German Patrol will hear you." "They're close. Real
close, you've got to try to be quiet." "I know. I know. But we're out here all
alone, and if they hear us, we're for it." "Try to be quiet.... yes, I know it
hurts.... I know you can't feel your arm.... that's because it isn't there
anymore...."
And this for a young man of 17 (he tried to go overseas at 16 but the CO
caught him and stopped him).
He may have intellectually understood that the average German was no more to
blame than you or I, but years of trench warfare and poison gas and all the
mud and vermin and whatnot and dead and maimed friends.... that left an
impression that never left and was inseparable mentally from the Germans. He
obviously knew on some level it wasn't right to blame the Germans for some of
it, but that's a big difference from not having an emotional association.
I think this "other guy is a human being" thing is something mostly for
historians or those who've fought antiseptic wars (if that isn't an
oxymoron - but there are better and worse). I think people who've seen
enough friends die in horrible ways (and there aren't too many good ones in
war) tend to have scars that always colour their perceptions on some level,
even if they intellectually can separate themselves from any bias or grudge.
Emotional experiences imprint deeper and more lastingly.
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2002 at 10:44:23AM -0500, Tomb wrote:
It is certainly the case that many people in the UK dislike any sort of formal
friendship with or support for the Japanese, because of the actions of the
Japanese forces in the Second World War. Mostly it's not people who were
there, any more; it's their children, who had to live with the aftermath...
On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:49:01 +0000 Roger Burton West
> <roger@firedrake.org> wrote:
> It is certainly the case that many people in the UK dislike any sort
Same in Australia, although confined more to the wartime generation, I
think. My mother -- sister of two men who fought the Japanese and wife
of another -- disliked and distrusted them years after WW2 ended; she'd
seen and heard of too many horrors from prison camps, etc., and she was
not inclined to anything more conciliatory than a live-and-let-live
attitude, but always remembering to "keep your powder dry."
A child of the 50s and 60s, I don't hate the Japanese (and I had the
occasional argument with Mum over that), and I haven't brought my sons up to,
either. In the way of these things, they may have a less tolerant attitude
than I do, due solely to what they have discovered for themselves in reading
history. Never underestimate the propaganda power of historical texts...
Phil
----
Gravity is a Downer... So let's go flying!
> Phillip Atcliffe wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:49:01 +0000 Roger Burton West
My grandfather was a USN landing craft pilot/shipfitter in the pacific
in WWII. For years he wouldn't even buy Japanese manufactured goods. But even
he's mellowed over the years.
3B^2
TALKING WITH OLD LANDSERS IN THE 60S (brothers, uncles, cousins, fathers of
girlfriends, as well as drinking buddies) was an education.
their war with the RUSSIANS was every bit as horrible as the ALLIES war
against the JAPANESE.
also the guerilla war in GREECE and the BALKANS was apparently waged with the
same blood thirstyness by all combatants.
WILLI (?) SCMIDT (?)s CROSS OF IRON TRILOGY followed very much what i heard
from these vets. also avery old book called STALINGRAD written in the late 40s
or early 50s by a German vet).
SVEN HASSO's stories sounded right at first, then started off into the realms
of weirdness.
(some of this could be to faulty memory or bad soldier info during the
war-like his being convinced he fought US MARINEs in Italy)
BUT. . .
since i have been to MY WAR, saw and experienced things that most
folks who are non-combatants would not believe or f could not believe,
i look at any soldier's account of his war with an open mind.
a combat soldier's view of events is not the same as an author or that of a
general or staff officer with all of the info at hand.
many times, a soldier never knows WHY, is never certain as to WHERE, or even
WHEN, or WHAT THE RESULTs of a battle are outside of his own combat space and
time.
and this space is limited; tunnel vision, my and my buds versus THEM, in a
warped time frame.
i met a few unreformed NAZIs when i was in GERMANY, but most of the
folks were -just folks! nothing more or less.
some of the old soldiers wanted nothing to do with Americans, probably based
on war experiences just like some old American soldiers want nothing to do
with Germans long ater the war.
ditto for Japanese, Noeth Korens and Chinese.
and this is how i feel toward NVA/VC and their government.
LOL (grimly) i was not much in love with the South Viet policians, civilian
police, some of the civies, and most of their armed forces either.
As well as some of my own!
STILL!
THE GUNNER ASCH BOOKS.
excellent works. ighly recommended reading.
> --- KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
...
> That's Hans Helmut Kirst - just in case you want to
I'm happy I got so close, after soooo many years.
Bye for now,
I have a copy of that old Stalingrad book in paperback:
"Stalingrad", Theodor Plievier, Berkeley press, 1948. No ISBN.
The book is bleak, depressing throughout, but ends on what by comparison
to the rest of the book can be considered a hopeful note. It's also very
well written and rings true from what I have read elsewhere. It was a
cathartic read and I can only hope that the author laid some of his personal
demons to rest by writing the book.
A search at Barnes & Noble shows used copies available, as well as another
novel entitled "Moscow". The prices are fairly reasonable, roughly $15 for
paperback copies.
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> TALKING WITH OLD LANDSERS IN THE 60S (brothers, uncles, cousins,
I am surprised no one has mentioned Guy Sajet's "The Forgotten Soldier". Talk
about a bleak image of the Eastern Front from the German point of
view...
[quoted original message omitted]
Guy Sajer ^ That wishlist is growing faster than my bank account, which at
least promises to start an upward turn.
> Noel Weer wrote:
> I am surprised no one has mentioned Guy Sajet's "The Forgotten
i remember reading the MOSCOW book too.
and THE FORGOTTTEN SOLDIER sounds familiar too me but i am not sure.
also an excellent book, title un remembred, was about the FINNS fighting the
RUSSIANS in WW II.
how was the moscow book?
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> i remember reading the MOSCOW book too.
[quoted original message omitted]
[quoted original message omitted]
From: "Tomb" <tomb@dreammechanics.com>
> "Shhh, quiet Johnny, the German Patrol will hear you."
I can remember my Grandfather telling me of some of the things he went through
in WW1. I was only 3 to 10 at the time. When I was 4 I was particularly
fascinated by his right arm, or rather, the fact that much of it was missing.
I can remember him telling me the thing that scared him most was air attack.
He was a sniper, and spent much of his military career in no-man's-land,
and during a considerable period of 1916 was used as a practice target
by red-painted Albatross or possibly Pfalz scouts ( they had
cigar-shaped
fuselages and round noses anyway - I'd just made an Aifix model of one).
I can remember him getting really upset only once. He'd been detached from his
platoon before being able to train the new replacements properly, and when he
came back they'd all been killed by an aircraft strafing along the trench.
He told me of his experiences riding Camels in 1915, before the landings at
Suvla Bay, Gallipoli. He spent much of the campaign shooting out insulators of
the telegraph line than ran over the topmost ridge, at a range of over 600
yards.
Later on, he was at the battle of the Somme. Of the 600 or so in his
batallion, 182 were killed or wounded.
(Source http://www.multeen.freeserve.co.uk/Full%20casualty%20lists.htm)
I still have a watch that was given to him by a German sniper. This guy had
taken a heavy toll of officers in the sector, so several snipers were detailed
to take him out. My Grandfather hid in
no-man's-land
for 3 days before the enemy returned to a previous hide. The German shot,
my Grandfather shot at the flash, then went in with a bayonet - orders
were to "make sure". When he got there, he found his bullet had travelled up
the line of the rifle, and wrecked the German's shooting arm. He was bleeding
to death. My Grandfather disobeyed strict orders to keep field dressings for
personal use, bandaged him up, and stuck his helmet on his
rifle. (It was no-man's land - full of craters - and this guy couldn't
be seen). A German stretcher team arrived and took the wounded opponent back.
My Grandfather said he identified too much with him, they were in the same
line of work - and he'd never fire a rifle again with such a wound, so
was permanently KO'd.
The German gave my Grandfather a Ladies' Pocket watch he'd been given by
his fiance. Later he got it inscribed with a bayonet - "Theipval, 23rd
September, 1916".
From: "Noel Weer" <noel.weer@verizon.net>
> I am surprised no one has mentioned Guy Sajet's "The Forgotten
French.
I can't help on this, but I pray that you will someday succeed in finding the
other end of the story. The story you told of your grandfather really touched
me. Best of luck.
> On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 04:41, Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:
+++SNIP+++
> And if anyone in Germany who's reading this knows of any way of
> I can't help on this, but I pray that you will someday succeed in
Yes very touching story.
Mr Great Grandfather spent the 1st world war as ground crew for the origins of
the RAF. Never got to speak to him about it he died when I was young. (died at
90 mind you!)
Mr Grandfather was an infantryman in WW2, talking about the war was banned so
I don't know much about what he did. My grandmother has lots of desert gear
still so probably in North Africa. Mind you the only tale I did hear was that
my grandfather broke his leg on practice parachute jumps and subsequently
missed operation Market Garden! That's fate for ya.
Jeremey
My uncle was in Artillery in WWII. I don't remember the unit or areas
he served in. I do know that his unit was almost over-run by panzers,
and that they used their arty tubes to direct-fire at the tanks, like
dismounted tank destroyers.
He also earned three silver stars while serving over there. He was buried this
past fall with military honors, I made sure to tell the funeral detail about
his service, hoping it gave their task that day in the cold, windy rain a bit
more meaning.
--Flak
> On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 10:25, Germ wrote:
> At 3:25 PM +0000 3/22/02, Germ wrote:
My Grandfather on my Mom's side was an Instrument Instructor. He was so good
they didn't send him over seas. He later joined Eddie Rickenbackers team at
EAL for 20 years.
My Great Uncle on my Dad's side was a Flight engineer on a B-17. He
was shot down over occupied Europe and spent a good portion of his time in the
basement of a resistance house. I suspect it was a Dutch House. I need to get
in touch with that part of the family and try to find out.
> From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de (K.H.Ranitzsch)
> Probably has nothing to do with it, but I saw a TV documentary
Speaking of unrelated war movies, has anyone on the list ever seen the short
film, "Josef Schultz"? I would highly recommend it.
3B^2
_________________________________________________________________
[quoted original message omitted]
--- Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@webone.com.au>
wrote:
> From: "Flak Magnet" <flakmagnet72@yahoo.com>
When criticized for awarding too many medals, Patton replied that an inch of
silk ribbon for a German machine gun nest was as fair a trade as he could ask
for.
G'day,
> What I *do* criticise...
Trying to restart the Battle of Brisbane hey?;)
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/bob.htm
(one link among a few on the topic... it started out as everybody vs the US
MPs by the look of it, but took a turn for the worse when an Aussie got shot
and it turned in to more of an us vs them)
Cheers
> --- Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@webone.com.au>
> In Australia or the UK, they tend not to be so free
One medal for 1 MG nest - I have no quibble about that.
Even for the attempt, whether successful or not. In my book, just about anyone
personally involved in a heavily opposed breaching operation deserves a
sackfull of medals.
What I *do* criticise is lumping the guys who take out mg nests or crawl
through heavy fire to wire up C4 to an obstacle with the guys who get the same
award *or higher* for achieving 75% subscriptions to war bonds, outstanding
achievement
in the use of the Xerox, their unit having the third-lowest rate of VD
in the Brigade, or just because it's their turn this week.
From: <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au>
> > What I *do* criticise...
Not as such. I just think the guys in the US Military that
really deserve the gongs they get are short-changed by
the devaluation of that particular currency.
> http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/bob.htm
Just try doing a search for it under Google, using the string
"Battle of Brisbane" -AFL -Cricket -Test -Pogues
> On Fri, 2002-03-22 at 20:43, Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:
While I was in the army (six years, 1992-1998, with stops in Somalia,
Panama and Haiti (just missed going to Bosnia, barely) I was dissappointed to
see how much of a "gimme" medals had become. I was also bummed to see how they
went to shitbags who managed to shine just long enough for someone to notice
instead of the troops that busted their asses every day.
> But *THREE* Silver Stars? In WW2? And for an artilleryman?
I wish he'd lived closer, (Him: Florida, me: Ohio). I bet he had a lot of
stories, besides being a really neat uncle. (Not that I knew that
when I was still snot-nosed...)
> > He was