> I have also had the same experience. In fact I have had store
<engage wargaming rant mode> Wargaming... stores...? You guys over the pond
are soooooooo spoilt! GZG
minis etc, in fact all the minis I have ever been interested in are only
available by mail order here in the UK.
I've always had a yearn to run a proper wargames shop, with lines from lots of
manufacturers, but since I don't have the capital I'll have to stick to shows
and mail order.
There are a few wargames stores (other than GW, which I think we all agree
doesn't count) in the country, such as Keep Wargaming... but never anywhere
near where I live! <rant mode disengaged>
> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 09:12 am, Richard Kirke wrote:
Might be worth mentioning where you like Richard, someone might know something
you don't...
TTFN
Jon
> Might be worth mentioning where you like Richard, someone might know
That's either a typo or WAY off topic...
> On Thursday, July 10, 2003, at 03:06 pm, TMP Editor wrote:
Er... yes. That should be 'live', obviously.
TTFN
Jon
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:12:02 +0000, "Richard Kirke"
<richardkirke@hotmail.com> wrote:
> There are a few wargames stores (other than GW, which I think we all
Those of us on _this_ side of the pond can grumble, too. For one thing,
the vast majority of the U.K. is within a single day's drive. You just do not
get the single day game shows here in North America. Instead, you get big
shows in the summer that run several days. Even still, it usually has to be a
vacation trip (costing you lodging money, money to attend, money to get to the
location in the first place).
For another thing, wargame clubs are almost always centred around stores or
universities/colleges. Since shows are so far apart, you are usually
stuck playing the games supported by the local stores. I have heard of wargame
clubs in Britain that get together in pubs, and I just shake my head, wishing
there was something similar here.
Finally, the U.S. banking industry sucks. Do you know that I can't get an
international money order here in this town of 50,000 in anything other than
U.S. dollars? I can't even get one at the post office! I can get an
international money order at the post office, but not in pounds sterling. So,
unless you have a credit card, it's very difficult for a lot of Americans to
mail order from the U.K. They can mail order from the U.S. without _any_
trouble as almost every grocery store sells money orders that work in the
U.S., but you can't order outside of the country.
As for local stores wanting to go through distributors, I have heard noises
from some stores stating that distributors _have_ threatened to drop
them if
they order by mail. If that's the case -- and I think it's illegal, but
can a
store really afford to sue his distributor? -- you are going to see GZG
products completely dry up in North American stores. This is a bad situation
since so much gaming revolves around stores, or what people can buy from
U.S.
distributors.
The best thing for Jon would be to set up some sort of mail order distributing
system in the U.S., but I'm guessing it wouldn't be cost effective for him.
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 10:16:10AM -0500, Allan Goodall wrote:
> Those of us on _this_ side of the pond can grumble, too. For one thing,
...BUT on the other hand, shows in the UK are mostly not actually about
gaming! It's true that at a big show like Salute there'll be some demo games
you can join, and I haven't been to the smaller events like Bifrost; but most
of Salute, and almost all of Colours, is a sales forum
not a gaming one. GZG-ECC was the first wargaming show I'd been to.
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 17:17:06 +0100, Roger Burton West
<roger@firedrake.org> wrote:
> ...BUT on the other hand, shows in the UK are mostly not actually about
Sure, they are about buying. That's the problem over here. If you don't have a
store selling the figures, you probably can't see them before buying them.
Then there are the mail order problems I mentioned. If the store doesn't carry
the figures, you have fewer purchasing opportunities over here.
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2003 at 11:29:58AM -0500, Allan Goodall wrote:
It seems to me that what ought to work quite well is small local
conventions in the GZG-ECC style (apologies to the WCC guys, but I
haven't been to one of those), where potential new players can try out the
rules, see the miniatures, etc. Combine that with flyers at the con saying
"right, that was fun wasn't it, if you want to buy these things here's how to
do it". You won't get sponsorship from your local game store, but if your
local game store stocked GZG stuff you wouldn't need to run a convention in
this style anyway... and if the local wargamers start talking about GZG,
perhaps the store will reconsider stocking it after all.
I think this might be a good idea in.uk as well...
Fleet in Hampshire. Though I am soon to move to Failsworth in Oldham.
So, let's see if I have it right.
UK Shows are organized by clubs to recruit members and to get companies to
bring product to sell. Games are a spectator event, with Q/A to the
club in question. These are one day events, with several events each "season"
US Shows are organized by groups to give a venue to play games and to get
companies to bring product to sell. Games are a participation event, and the
primary motive for going (either to play or run the games). These are
multi-day events, with 2-4 events each year in a particular market (i.e.
SF Bay Area has 3 major events, DundraCon [February], KubalCon [May] and
Con-Quest
[September]. HMGS has Fall-in, Cold Wars and Historicon in PA)
Pubs: I wish that model had migrated here! Blast those Puritans! There isn't a
good equivalent in the US (at least in the parts I've lived). I think it has
to do with settlement patterns.
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
> > Might be worth mentioning where you like Richard, someone might know
LOL it took me some time to read through the typo... I was very worried for
a bit :-D
Richard
_________________________________________________________________
Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you.
http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess
Believe me, having wargaming stores in your area may not be all it's cracked
up to be. I have 4 stores within a 40 or so mile drive of where I live. Of
these four stores, one is a Wizards of the Coast outlet, which has mostly
turned into a Hasbro game and toy store. The second store mostly carries Games
Workshop items, and will not let you use the store's tables for games that
they don't sell. The third store caters to the areas historical gamers, who
were "horrified" at the mere thought of playing a SF or fantasy based game.
The fourth store, which has a more balanced approach, still only lets his
gaming area be used for products he carries or can order, and has a stated
preference for 25mm figures. Oh, we do have a GW store in one of the malls
also, but I don't count that store as anything useful.
This leaves me with only the gaming room in my house (yes I do have my own
gaming room in my house, so I guess I am spoiled) that I can play GZG games
in. This is fine as it stands, but it makes it hard to attract new players. I
guess we all have our own problems, and will just have to keep playing through
them.
[quoted original message omitted]
What's a wargames store?
Let's see, in Canberra ( pop 300,000) we have "Logical Choice", which sells
Believe me, having wargaming stores in your area may not be all it's cracked
up to be. I have 4 stores within a 40 or so mile drive of where I live. Of
these four stores, one is a Wizards of the Coast outlet, which has mostly
turned into a Hasbro game and toy store. The second store mostly carries Games
Workshop items, and will not let you use the store's tables for games that
they don't sell. The third store caters to the areas historical gamers, who
were "horrified" at the mere thought of playing a SF or fantasy based game.
The fourth store, which has a more balanced approach, still only lets his
gaming area be used for products he carries or can order, and has a stated
preference for 25mm figures. Oh, we do have a GW store in one of the malls
also, but I don't count that store as anything useful.
It's sadly about the same here, we have three in the area and all of them are
members of the evil empire (GW) LOL.
This leaves me with only the gaming room in my house (yes I do have my own
gaming room in my house, so I guess I am spoiled) that I can play GZG games
in. This is fine as it stands, but it makes it hard to attract new players. I
guess we all have our own problems, and will just have to keep playing through
them.
Doing about the same, converted the garage. Then by word of mouth, I
recruit.....:)
> What's a wargame store?
Here you have a choice between a darts shop which has a few shelves worth of
wargames and RPGs plus a few minis, nice guys but no room for a table; or 30km
away, the "real" wargame shop, which smells of cat and is between the gay bar
and the shop selling "specialty leather
goods for the sophisticated customer". :-)
> >What's a wargame store?
For the ultimate wargaming store, check out www.sentrybox.com.
Loads of stock (I managed to find boxes of Galactic Empires cards there when
noone else could get them), and a large gaming room.
Its the only time I've been jealous of people living in Calgary.
I guess you have to have something to do in the winter (June to May:))
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003, Michael Brown wrote:
> I guess you have to have something to do in the winter (June to May :)
)
> Michael Brown
No need for that. Actually, its more like September to May.
Here you have a choice between a darts shop which has a few shelves worth of
wargames and RPGs plus a few minis, nice guys but no room for a table; or 30km
away, the "real" wargame shop, which smells of cat and is between the gay bar
and the shop selling "specialty leather
goods for the sophisticated customer". :-)
Decisions, decisions......)
That's an incredible store. I went there a few times when I was living in
Calgary. That place is like a supermarket... of hobby supplies. Literally.
It's the size of one.:)
But in our daily dealing With stone and steel, we find The Gods have no such
feeling Of justice toward mankind.
To no set gauge they make us, --
For no laid course prepare --
And presently o'ertake us With loads we cannot bear.
- Rudyard Kiping
"Hymn of Breaking Strain"
[quoted original message omitted]
Yikes. After seeing some of the situations here, I think that my city is
almost blessed as far as gaming stores go. In Vancouver we have about
4-5
stores ranging from evil incarnate (IE GW) to nice, to small but welcoming
stores. None carry any GZG products anymore, since Geo-Hex stopped
distroing em, but a few are willing to order in from GZG directly. My normal
hangout
in North Vancouver's actually got about 5-6 tables set up for gamers and
I am able to run Full Thrust Games over the weekends without any problems. He
even sells drinks from a minifridge.
Kinda makes me glad to be Canadian....
> Here you have a choice between a darts shop which has a few shelves
> Richard Kirke wrote:
> Fleet in Hampshire. Though I am soon to move to Failsworth in Oldham.
Well, there's always Esdevium in Aldershot - you're not far from them.
Haven't been there for some time, last time I went it was geared towards
RPGs but with some F/SF miniatures
> Well, there's always Esdevium in Aldershot - you're not far from them.
Interesting, not come across it (at least, not knowingly...)
> Allan Goodall wrote:
<richardkirke@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
One thing that most of us over here on the western side of the pond forget is
that gas prices in England (and Europe and elsewhere) are far far higher than
what we pay. I don't know about many of you here in North America, but I
travel a lot, and if something is within an hour's drive of me I more or less
consider it "local". I pay far less
for the gas consumed on that two-hour roundtrip venture than many
people would in England.
Not that I'm complaining about gas prices over here, just trying to put some
perspective on it for everyone.
Mk
Atlanta has the Warroom, best gaming store I've seen on either coast. The not
only have a large inventory half the store is gaming area.
They have GZG stuff but as far as I can tell it is all legacy. When it goes
away I doubt they buy more.
Of course Atlanta is a 4 hour drive for me so I usually only make it for
Cons or as part of a pass through when weekend backpacking.
Roger
> s666@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> Richard Kirke wrote:
> Well, there's always Esdevium in Aldershot - you're not far from
I've come across two addresses for them on the web:
Esdevium Games, 6 Wellington Street, Aldershot, Hampshire GU11 1DZ, United
Kingdom
and
Esdevium Games Ltd. Unit 2, Riverwey Industrial Estate Newman Lane Alton
Hampshire GU34 2QL England
I suspect one (Aldershot) is the shop, the other the distribution centre.
I also came across Dark Star, two stores at
155 Cove Road Farnborough
and
27 The Woolmead Farnham
who I wasn't previously aware of - although they look to be more of a
comic store than game store.
There's also a shop in Guildford whose name I can't remember, on Chertsey
Road.
Hi Roger,
> It seems to me that what ought to work quite well is small local
> saying "right, that was fun wasn't it, if you want to buy these things
> to run a convention in this style anyway... and if the local wargamers
You'd think that would work, because it makes sense, right?
I've been doing that sort of thing here (in Toronto) for years, running demo
events of Stargrunt at local cons. We have two or three "game" conventions
here in town every year, which are all about participatory
gaming of all kinds and which have dealers' rooms/areas. There are a
couple of other "genre" events, like Toronto Trek - which, incidentally,
starts today and at which I'll be running Stargrunt - that have small
gaming programming. I always take along a flyer with a blurb about Stargrunt
and contact info for GZG, Eureka and GeoHex (when it was distributing GZG).
Almost invariably, we have a great demo game and when I get to the "so, you
can't buy it in stores, you have to mailorder from England" the players are
interested in a vague way, but that's it. Either vague interest, or no
interest. But we've had this problem for ages - there was no Canadian
distributor for GZG stuff, even when GeoHex was doing it in the US, and
Canadian stores just didn't ever get the stuff in - except one or two
here and there who bring in the stuff occasionally in little bits.
The best success I've had boosting the games has been when I ran demos at a
store nearby who actually ordered in a pile of stuff from GeoHex. It took a
couple of store demo events plus the store staff boosing the products, but we
started to get people actually ordering stuff, interested in playing, etc.
Then GeoHex stopped distributing, the guy at the store who was boosting the
games stopped working at the store, etc etc etc. Doing
demos at events like game conventions is great - but it isn't *enough*
usually to get people to go out and buy the game. Not here anyway.
Some serious gamers will mailorder - I've bought the vast majority of my
GZG stuff that way, and frankly *prefer* to mailorder GZG stuff because I'm
very comfortable with GZG's service and trust their products (and I never
liked GeoHex's packaging policies, plus it was less expensive to mailorder
from the UK). Beginners won't mailorder - well, not in my experience
anyway. They want to see the products live. Beginners are often young, and
don't have credit cards so mailordering out of country is a bit of a
challenge. What we end up with is that without someone in N.America
distributing and "boosting" the games, I wonder if they will be able to
attract a "new" audience or will they be restricted to experienced gamers who
know about them already...? The new people see GW, so they play
GW...
Thanks
> I've come across two addresses for them on the web :