Walkers, was RE: grav

> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:

I think Mr.Tuffley made it quite clear in his rules that oversized (ie >1)
walkers are not part of the background or really even the core rules. They are
in there for battletech idiots who love Giant Robots[tm]. They were never
intended to be balanced against tanks because Giant Robots are a lousy
military idea.

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>

> They are in there for battletech idiots who love Giant Robots[tm].

In this ficton. I'm not a Battletech player myself but I can see why some
people find it fun. If you can come up with PSB to support it with a
reasonably straight face, and it's fun, why not? Also, it can lead to some
very impressive paint jobs, since after all there's not much point in putting
camo on them...

> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:

I'm a Battletech player--and one of the most enjoyable
things about that was smacking around mech jocks with tanks even under the
handicaps of that ruleset. But I don't delude myself that large walkers belong
in a hard SF setting.

> John Atkinson wrote:

> I think Mr. Tuffley made it quite clear in his rules

I'm surprised you even bother playing Sci Fi at all. Perhaps sticking with
modern and historical games would better suit you.

> --- Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com> wrote:

> I'm surprised you even bother playing Sci Fi at all.

Last comment on this thread--

I play science fiction (I prefer the abbreviation SF because Sci Fi has become
synonymous with Godzilla vs. Mothra and simillar fantasy) because science
fiction is 'what if'. In Dirtside II's case: What if communications and sensor
technology removed most of the fog of war? What if GEV and Grav technology
became workable? What if DFFGs, MDCs, and HELs became possible? Etc. Other
than that, yes I do expect the laws of physics and of human nature to stay the
same.

> Laserlight wrote:

> From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>

The only decent psb for walkers was in DP9's "Heavy Gear". The combat
walkers were general purpose construction exo-skeletons with added on
armor and weapons. Larger combat vehicle were tracked.

The problem with walkers is that incoming fire (compared to a conventional
tank's perspective) hits the top or bottom, instead of the front and sides.
This is less of an issue if most weapons become top attack, but as long as
heavy penetration is primarily delivered by vast amounts of MV, the walker is
at a severe disadvantage. In the hypothetical case of a walker being a tank
hull on legs, there is still

Then, IMO, they should not even be included at all. Mr.Tuffley also states
that the game system is designed to be generic, so that you can apply it to
any fictional background you want. If this is true, then in a fictional

background which accepts the validity of Mecha (See: Suspension of Disbelief),
a game which accommodates that background SHOULD grant equal

value to mecha, or not bother to pretend to be that all-encompassing.

Brian

"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."

                                 - S. Freud

> From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>

I've needed to ask this for a while:

What does PSB stand for?

Brian

"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."

                                 - S. Freud

> From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>

Where is it stated in the rules that the game must always be applied to a HARD
sci fi setting? While I agree that that's the most common application and
mindset amongst this group, it's not set in stone. Look on Andy
Cowell's site - someone posted rules for a DSII scenario vs. The
Blob....
Someone mentione Star Trek in relationship to FT, and Mr.Roddenberry's
brainchild wasn't always the most scientifically correct..... Why not a

Flash Gordon campaign, etc.? The point comes back to this: However stupid you
may consider a concept In Real Life, if you accept it's fictional plausibility
enough to include in a set of game rules, it should be just as playable as any
other concept accepted by the game.

Brian

"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."

                                 - S. Freud

Pseudo-Scientific Bull...

*grin*

"The Irish are the only race of people on Earth for which psychoanalysis is of
no use."

                                 - S. Freud

> From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>

John Atkinson wrote in reply to Brian Bilderback:

> >the point being that for the game to be fair and balanced, a walker,

> while >having a different set of abilities and limitations different

> unit in the game as any >other vehicle costing the same amount of

DS2 is supposed to be a generic game. Sure, mechs are poor military
units -
which means that their points value should be correspondingly low.

What better way to hammer home the inefficiency of mechs than having the

rules declare, through the points system, that the mechs need a 2:1 numerical
superiority to beat conventional tanks with similar equipment?
:-)

Regards,

Brian, Well put!

[quoted original message omitted]

G'day

> If you can come up with PSB to support it

Does that mean I'm not allowed to use Daleks anymore?! Aww....;)

Well by the same token no more SV... <mutter who the hell ever thought up
biological things that could survive in a vacuum without being in a stasis
state like a tradigrade...mutter>;P

As a person whose most regular forces are Daleks Greys Nuns with guns

I'm gonna sulk if I have to start taking this gaming thing seriously;)

Actually the biggest "nail", is the fact that the walker has only two legs.
All it takes is a hit strong enough to knockoff one leg, and the walker is
horizontal. (On it's front, on it's back, ect. Read: Useless...actually it
might still be usefull as cover for infantry...) Whereas a tank with one tread
blown out still has it's weapons useable. This fact would be true in any game
dealing with walker units.

The Battletech rules never seem to deal with this. I stopped playing that game
once I figured that out. (I spotted most of it just by studying the
construction system.)

Donald Hosford

> Richard and Emily Bell wrote:

> Laserlight wrote:

What? Your walkers can't rollover? Can't sit up? In Battletech, one of the
tactics that I used was to run a very fast mech across the field, saving
enough movement points to go prone at the end of the movement. This lowered my
profile until the next turn, when I got up and attacked, or repeated the
advance.

Again, a lot depends on how agile you view the walkers.

-----
Brian Bell

In message <006b01c1721a$b515b760$09282a04@vz.dsl.genuity.net>
> "Noel Weer" <noel.weer@verizon.net> wrote:

[snip]
> For those that can remember back to the first Alien movie - there was
Caterpillar has
> actually received orders/requests for these items, as a result.
Anyway, Cat
> would like to make them, and actually investigated doing so, _but_
[snip]

Actually, it was the _second_ Alien movie - but that's an interesting
anecdote :-)

On the 'they look cool' (wrt Mecha), if you postulate a future where war has
become a televised entertainment event (or equivalent), the corporations
running the war could field mecha just to improve the ratings, and apply
'handicapping' rules to make the 'coolest' looking
units the most cost effective. :-)

> From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>

> John Atkinson wrote in reply to Brian Bilderback:

Actually, this was my reply to Mr.Atkinson.

> DS2 is supposed to be a generic game. Sure, mechs are poor military

In Real life, yes. In most SF backgrounds, probably. But in some fictional
backgrounds, no. For the game to be truly generic, it hsould allow for the
creation of mechs/vehicles etc. that accurately reflect NOT Real Life,
but the background in which they are set.

> which means that their points value should be correspondingly low.

Only for backgrounds that hold them in low regard.

> What better way to hammer home the inefficiency of mechs than having

How about to allow them, to allow them full equality with regular vehicles,
and then let individual players disallow them outside of fictional settings?

Sure they could roll over...but a mech without one or both legs, can't stand
up...or move. Just like mechs without hands can't (or shouldn't be able to)
climb up buildings....

Donald Hosford

> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:

> What? Your walkers can't rollover? Can't sit up?