How about a list of things agreed to so far? (Ie: those things in common
consensus...I think.)
Setting Details:
Setting name: Vector Verse --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Message filter: [VV] --(Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au)
Thread Location: gzg-l main list --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Content: As original as possible. --(Hosford.Donald@acd.net /
laserlight@quixnet.net)
Setting Notes: Earth: Non existant. (Setting not related to GZG Timeline.)
Aliens: Humans only.
Ancients/Old ones: None. --(laserlight@quixnet.net /
Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au) Tech: Existing tech only. (Ie: no living
tech....)
--(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Movement: Vector only. (Is there a differernce beyond the game rules?)
--(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Nations at different tech levels. --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
First Tier -- Highest tech available.
Second Tier -- Middle of the road.
Third Tier -- Lowest space travel/battling nations.
FTL drive: Two or more methods. --(Several.)
FTL Types:
Jump drive -- instant
Hyperdrive -- basic Hyperspace.
Stargate/Wormhole network -- think starfire.
Stargates / single bubble. --(agoodall@att.net)
Drives with limited area usage, but faster speed.
History notes:
"Long night" --(mwbrown@sonic.net / Hosford.Donald@acd.net)
Suggests that a large star nation existed in the past. Anywhere upto a 1000
years ago. It controlled a sizable area. Maybe a sizable piece of
the galaxy. Many worlds were settled. This nation collapsed. The reason can be
"lost in the mists of time". The various nations in the setting were some of
these former colony worlds that have reemerged from
the long night and set up new nations.
The following decisions need to be made:
--(Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au)
FTL Travel: ?? (Wormhole, Point-to-Point FTL, Lightspeed drive, Wave
Motion Engine, etc)
N-Space Travel: Vector
Colonisation method:?? (Cryosleep, generation ships, prison transport, wealthy
businessmen, greedy corporations)
Galactic Economy:?? (by this I mean what is the most valuable resource? Water?
Oxygen? Unobtainium?)
What is the imperative for expansion:?? (population pressure, lack of
resources, interspecies war)
What level of automation will starships have:?? (FB standard 1 man per mass,
5,000 men to man a destroyer, etc).
Donald Hosford said:
> What level of automation will starships have: ?? (FB standard 1 man
How big are starships? What does 1 mass represent? Where do ships fit on the
Starship Dimensions page?
Personally, I've assumed 1400m^3 for FT (the Fleet Book says
100t, and I've assumed Traveller style displacement-hydrogen
tonnes).
G'day,
> History notes:
> setting were some of these former colony worlds that have reemerged
Just personal opinion, but I wouldn't even spell this out. If the VV does go
this historical route, then by all means keep it well and trully in mind when
doing up the details of nations (after all the fiercest battles are usually
between people with the smallest real differences). However, I wouldn't have
it up front and hitting people over the head with it. Let it be far enough in
the past that its not so important (or even remembered by some) for the
"current" nations. You have to
becareful not to accidently turn ex-empire into "ancients provided us
with magi-tech we don't understand just maintain", I think that's been
done a lot - and if "King David's Spaceship" is any indication one heck
of a lot better than I could manage for one;)
Cheers
I've only been following peripherally, thinking about a nation/power.
I like the summary so far. It reminds me of the Tenet phase of a game of
Universalis.
Q What about organic or exotic tech by PSB only? Systems are identical in
function (a beam is a beam, and drive is a standard drive), but the tech base
is grown instead of constructed. This would, for example, allow you to use SV
minis without using the SV rules.
> Q What about organic or exotic tech by PSB only? Systems are identical
I don't mind using some Phalon mechanic and perhaps maybe possibly some SV
rules, but I'd rather not PSB them as organic systems unless someone comes up
with a really, really convincing explanation as to why some humans would have
it and the rest wouldn't.
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:29:52 -0500, laserlight@quixnet.net
> <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
Physics is physics and proteins are proteins.
I have a hard time with exclusive technologies for more than a few years.
Rockets are rockets are rockets. Swedish rockets, Russian rockets, American
rockets, Chinese rockets, all rely on the same basic principles and the
differences are due to economic factors and the design decisions of the team
involved. Anything that can be done can be stolen, reverse engineered, or
simply built from the ground up with the basic knowledge that it IS possible
being enough impetus to find out how it is done.
If Jim-Bob the West Dirtballistanian Mushroom Farmer can grow Class 2
batteries in his back 40, it isn't going to be long before Bobby-Ray
the East Dirballistanian Mushroom Farmer will be growing the same strain or
better.
Presuming, of course, that the have-nots have the economic resources
to devote to developing said technology. Obviously some problems must be
solved by throwing huge wads of cash at them (barring the eccentric genius
method). Stealth fighters, for instance, can only be built by the United
States because right now, only the United States has the
combination of butt-loads of money to throw at the problem, facilities
in existence to build them, a strategic need for them, and scientists who have
been working with stealth concepts for decades.
Anyone else who chose to spend the money and time could develop them. Its just
that no one else has the money right now.
Unless you are postulating a situation where the gulf between powers is as
vast as the gulf between the US and the rest of the world, and that makes for
a lot of really boring games.
G'day,
Noam asked:
> Q What about organic or exotic tech by PSB only?...
Laserlight responded:
> I'd rather not PSB them as organic systems unless
John pointed out:
> Unless you are postulating a situation where the gulf between
I could conceivably see a case where the top tech guys have access to tech
based around organics (at least in part) while the lowest tech guys couldn't
do it because its too expensive and to hard to do without all the right prep
media. For instance, the top guys may have even gone organic for cost benefit
reasons, while the low tier guys do what they can so long as it gets the job
done. With real human history as a precedent I really can't see everyone being
on the same page over such a large area, the FTL techs being the clue to this.
And while I do see John's point about the potential for one sided campaigns in
the story line there's enough room in space that you're going to see a lot
more "even" than "uneven" wars (east vs west dirtballia rather than
superpowermania vs east dirtballia as superpowermania doesn't care about east
dirtballia as its off at an FTL dead end anyway). Moreover even in the one
sided campaigns you can still have challenging battles to game out to make the
most of the situation you can.
But maybe that's just my warped view of things;)
Cheers
Beth said
> I could conceivably see a case where the top tech guys have access
The lower techs wouldn't build their own, but they'd buy products from the
higher tech nations. Nigeria doesn't build her own caravels and
galleons, she buys last-generation frigates and patrol boats from
Thyssen or someone like that.
From: "Donald Hosford"
> Setting Notes:
Operational (in-system) movement is silly if you're using cinematic.
> The following decisions need to be made:
I answered most of them already, on 1/27
G'day,
> The lower techs wouldn't build their own, but they'd buy
And there is you in "last generation", not too many stealth fighters there as
John pointed out;)
Cheers
Simple....
P.E.T.A.
> --- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> >Q What about organic or exotic tech by PSB only? Systems are
Well... as far as organic tech goes.. if the idea is just to have access to
the minis, but use the standard human rules, as is indicated.. then it's
really moot... Since the rules used are the same, simply agree that the
expenditure of resources are the same as well... that boils it all down to
being a case of those who do and those who
don't are decided by theological/idealogical differences or because of
resource availability... ie.. some view the use of organics as
unholy/sacriligeous, or they could be unerved by it, or they could just
simply prefer cold hard steel... could be the source of some great tensions
and reasons for battle between nations... As well, a mineral rich world with
few agricultural resources for it's own population probably would want to use
those resources to 'grow' starships when
it's much, much easier to 'build' them... where as a heavy agro-world
with few mineral resources would be just the reverse..
Personally, I'm kinda liking the idea... treat it as I mention above, and it's
just another flavor for the game....
> --- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:17:06 -0500, Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> Beth said
There are less than a dozen nations that design their own tanks.
There are perhaps a dozen more nations that build tanks under liscence.
Yet almost every nation on the planet with significant land area except Canada
owns tanks.
> At 6:36 AM +0100 2/3/05, John Atkinson wrote:
Why would Canada need tanks when they've got us to protect them? ;-)
> There are less than a dozen nations that design their own tanks.
Well, we -had- tanks. German Leopard IIs. Should still have some of
them, though we're going with that stryker LAV thing now. Also imported. But
they work. And realistically enough, Canada's never gonna get into a full
conflict by itself. Not in the forseeable future anyways.
> At 10:01 PM -0800 2/2/05, Sylvester M. W. wrote:
Still do. 15 for the entire country. But that' barely counts...
Just thought this would make a nifty way for there to be humans everywhere. No
offence...I thought that "nations" implied the situation was developed
nations, not individual worlds exploring the unknown...
Could also be that the "exploration" phase is over long ago...think B5...very
few worlds left un used.
Donald Hosford
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> G'day,
Right-O Corrections made! Thanks. I missed that email...:-(
Donald Hosford
> Laserlight wrote:
> From: "Donald Hosford"
New list as of : 2-2-2005 2:30am (EST)
How about a list of things agreed to so far? (Ie: those things in common
consensus...I think.)
Setting Details:
Setting name: Vector Verse --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Message filter: [VV] --(Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au)
Thread Location: gzg-l main list --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Content: As original as possible. --(Hosford.Donald@acd.net /
laserlight@quixnet.net)
Setting Notes: Earth: Non existant. (Setting not related to GZG Timeline.)
Aliens: Humans only.
Ancients/Old ones: None. --(laserlight@quixnet.net /
Brendan.Robertson@dva.gov.au)
Tech: Existing tech only. (Ie: no living tech....)
--(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Movement: Vector only. --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
Nations at different tech levels. --(laserlight@quixnet.net)
First Tier -- Highest tech available.
Second Tier -- Middle of the road.
Third Tier -- Lowest space travel/battling nations.
FTL drive: Two or more methods. --(Several.)
FTL Types:
Jump drive -- instant
Hyperdrive -- basic Hyperspace.
Stargate/Wormhole network -- think starfire.
Stargates / single bubble. --(agoodall@att.net)
Drives with limited area usage, but faster speed.
History notes:
"Long night" --(mwbrown@sonic.net / Hosford.Donald@acd.net)
Suggests that a large star nation existed in the past. Anywhere upto a 1000
years ago. It controlled a sizable area. Maybe a sizable piece of the galaxy.
Many worlds were settled. This nation collapsed. The reason can be "lost in
the mists of time". The various nations in the setting were some of these
former colony worlds that have reemerged from
the long night and set up new nations.
Could be also that the "explore the galaxy" phase is long over. ie: very few
unused worlds... Still lots of room for all kinds of nations.
> Colonisation method: ?? (Cryosleep, generation ships, prison
Any of the above, far enough back in history
> Galactic Economy: ?? (by this I mean what is the most valuable
I'm thinking Tier 2 has gone into biology at the price of neglecting physics
and materals sciences. So Tier 1 sells weapons and power systems
to Tier 1, and buys pharmaceuticals and perhaps gene-engineered people.
> What is the imperative for expansion: ?? (population pressure, lack
No "interspecies", we're only talking about humans. Your other two reasons are
identical to each other.
> What level of automation will starships have: ?? (FB standard 1 man
Perhaps 1/mass for civilians and, oh, something like 4/mass for
military. Just pulling numbers from the aether at the moment. 10/mass
is too high.
Ryan and John chatted:
> Yet almost every nation on the planet with significant land area
Protect us from who?
Canada has a grand total of *zero* likely state enemies in the near (or mid)
future who we would be fighting *here*, except maybe the odd rogue dictator in
somewhere like North Korea who might lob a missile our way if they miss the
US. Perhaps some terrorist nutcase, but we sure as heck won't be needing tanks
for them.
There is no one that Canada could possibly need to *defend* against using
tanks, except if you lot invade again...
These days, if we had tanks, we would only them for expiditionary warfare
and/or to exert influence to protect our national interests. Except
that our current (for the past decade) government is stupid and doesn't bother
to pay attention to that kind of thing.
Having said that, we do have tanks (a whopping 114 Leopard I's) because we
based a mechanized brigade in Germany for decades, and they would have fought
the Soviets. They are being phased out of service and replaced with
105mm armed LAV-III's that the government thinks are more suitable for
the types of operations our military gets involved in.
***************************************
> Well, we -had- tanks. German Leopard IIs. Should still have some of
FYI, ours were Leopard I's not II's, and the LAV is built in London, Ontario.
We built the LAVs used by Australia, the USMC, I think maybe the ones in Saudi
Arabia, and a few other places (here!). The new Stryker vehicles for the US
Army are also being built here, though the US has another manufacturing
facility someplace building them as well.
Should I be including the flavor text of any nations that get proposed?
In a message dated 2/2/05 9:38:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> johnmatkinson@gmail.com writes:
<snip>
There are less than a dozen nations that design their own tanks.
There are perhaps a dozen more nations that build tanks under liscence.
Yet almost every nation on the planet with significant land area except Canada
owns tanks.
John
From: "Adrian Johnson"
> There is no one that Canada could possibly need to *defend* against
<very, very big grin> We *are* invading, hadn't you noticed? We have been
invading since, oh, when was your first McDonald's built?
> Should I be including the flavor text of any nations that get
Should start a web page instead--I'll do that at some point, unless
someone else would like to volunteer--nothing fancy, no graphics just
yet. Roger has volunteered to host it, which I presume will be at
vectorverse.firedrake.org or some such.
> Should I keep crediting who came up with what? --(Donald Hosford)
Credit is okay but I don't want to post email addresses on a site where
spammers could see it.
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:19:19 -0500, Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> From: "Adrian Johnson"
We've noticed. But have you noticed the increasing amount of movies being shot
in canada, or our growing stranglehold on your drug supply? We can live with
your McDonalds... give us forty years and we'll control your minds <evil mad
scientist laugh>
> Yet almost every nation on the planet with significant
Every nations military is designed to fight the threats posed by it's
neighbors. Canada only has one guy next door, and that guy poses no threat to
Canada. Canada is free to spend it's money elsewhere which is a good thing.
> Laserlight wrote:
> Should I be including the flavor text of any nations that get
Webpage sounds good.
> Should I keep crediting who came up with what? --(Donald Hosford)
Ok. I will have to change those, and reupload the list.
BTW I am working on my own nation to include.
And that's only so that we can continue production, you know, in case
someone were to attack the Canadian facility.... ;-P
> --- Adrian Johnson <adrian@stargrunt.ca> wrote:
> vehicles for the US Army are also being built here, though the US has