Here's some thoughts about ship names for the UNSC: (With apologies to Ms.
Cherryh)
SDN: Continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Australia, Antarctica, North & South
America) CVA: Oceans (Pacific, Atlantic, Arctic, Indian) CVL: Seas (Weddell,
Caspian, Black, etc) BDN: Major Rivers (Amazon, Mississippi, Danube, Volga,
Congo) BB: Mountain Ranges (Ural, Rocky, Grampian, Great Dividing) BC:
Mountains (Everest, Ranier, Matterhorn) CA: Lakes CE: Bays CL: DD: FF: CR: SS:
Islands
Well, I still need a name-type for the Light Cruiser, Destroyer, Frigate
&
Corvette. I'm trying to stick with natural features, to avoid getting the UN
into political mudfights (Hey, you named a carrier after them and only an
Escort Cruiser after us?). ANy ideas?
BTW, who's the reigning NAC monarch in 2185?
> You wrote:
> Well, I still need a name-type for the Light Cruiser, Destroyer,
Deserts, Caverns/Caves, Swamps, Small Hills?
Maybe former Secretary-Generals, or how about people KIA during "Peace
Keeping" missions? Should be a real long list if things keep going the way
they are.
> BTW, who's the reigning NAC monarch in 2185?
Isn't it a Chuck the Umpteenth?
If I go as small as caves & swamps (Pripet Marsh notwithstanding), I could
probably name every ship the UNSC could ever launch after geographical
features in Indiana alone. Atmittedly, that'd make for a boring fleet
(Cornfield 0117, please tighten up formation). And I didn't want to make
up a bunch of Sec-Gens - and the UN probably wouldn't supply me with a
KIA list (Could we start with Korea and that 'Sorry About Your Rangers'
bit?).
I'll go back to the atlas and see if anything comes to mind.
Brit NAC Marines Officer (you know, the really pommy(sp?) 'aristo' type): 'Do
you not know who King is?'
Ami NAC Marines Lance Cpl (you know, the insolent 'please-transport-me'
type)
'_What_ king? Where?'
Noah 'We have a king?' Doyle
[quoted original message omitted]
> At 00:13 07/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
bit?).
> I'll go back to the atlas and see if anything comes to mind.
The actual UN casualty list for the last 50 years isn't that high at 1,551 and
that includes non military personal too. Perhaps ship names could be
successfully completed missions?
UNSC Congo? UNSC Liberia? UNSC El Salvador? Theres a list of them at the UN
site
http://www.un.org
The names may be a little uninspiring but then the UN never really has any
victories only the leftovers of other peoples mess.
[quoted original message omitted]
Personally I think you should move the names down one and name your SDN's
after secertaries of the UN. ie the Butros-Butros Gali, Coffey
Anan......
DD's then might be arms inspectors (now you was that Australian who gave Iraq
such a hard time....) FF's might be aid workers killed in the line of duty (no
I don't know any of the top of my head). I'll have to think some more.
Tony. twilko@ozemail.com.au
> At 21:45 06/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >SDN: Continents (Africa, Asia, Europe, Australia, Antarctica, North &
How about Deserts? Mojave, Saharrah, etc. How about Cities? New York, Hong
Kong, Kyoto, Melbourne, etc. How about Towns? Boise, Kingston, Berwick, Alice
Springs, etc. How about Volcanos? St.Helen's, Krakatoa, Vesuvius, etc.
How about off-planet holdings? Mars, Luna, Albion, etc.
How about Forests? Walden, Temagami, Sherwood, etc. How about Glaciers?
Columbia, etc. (I'm short on names, but there are a bunch) How about Cataracts
and Waterfalls? Zambesi, Niagra, etc.
Those are just some other ideas.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
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SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
Noah spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Brit NAC Marines Officer (you know, the really pommy(sp?) 'aristo'
type):
> 'Do you not know who King is?'
I'm thinking you missed the Americans response Noah. The real response would
be
"Elvis Aaron Presley, Sir. But most folks think he's dead now."
Tom (who thinks there is a King, but he's unlikely to be greatly revered in
the Scottish, Welsh or Irish parts of NAC).
Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> on 08/07/98 01:11:27 PM
Please respond to FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
cc: (bcc: Jared E Noble/AAI/ARCO)
Subject: Re: UN Ship Nomenclature
<SNIP a bunch of ship classes and designation ideas...>
> How about Glaciers? Columbia, etc. (I'm short on names, but there are
Glaciers bring to mind images of Slow, Massive structures, Crushing things
in their creeping path - sound like a SuperDreadnought to me. Anyway,
if
anyone is interested I could dig up some glacier names - Alaska seems to
have over half the glaciers in North America - fits really well with all
that tundra. Columbia, Portgage, Mendenhall, Matanuska, Knik, Yentna and
Lacuna all spring readily to mind - but there are certainly lots more.
Unfortunately I cannot provide much info on Glaciers elsewhere, which may not
seem very fair for the UN...
> > Brit NAC Marines Officer (you know, the really pommy(sp?) 'aristo'
type):
> > 'Do you not know who King is?'
> > type)
> I'm thinking you missed the Americans response Noah. The real
That's not "a king", that's "The King", at least according to the tabloids.
Good ideas - I need an atlas with better goegraphy, and less political
notation. I'm probably going to stay away from cities and towns, and stick
with natural features. Sort of a 'Neutrality' policy by the UN. I'm
seriously thinking about adding Sec-Gens, people killed in the line of
duty, missions, etc. I just didn't want to have to make up most of this
stuff, what with only 50 years of UN history to draw upon. I'll probably end
up sticking with natural features, but if I were doing missions, the
first would probably be the UNSCS Korea...
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
I'd appreciate any glacier names anybody can come up with, just send 'em to
me. I think I'll make one of the larger classes glaciers - maybe BCs.
Noah nvdoyle@midlink.com
[quoted original message omitted]
> "Elvis Aaron Presley, Sir. But most folks think he's dead now."
Odd that, eh? Anyhow Elvis isn't dead he just hiding out on a small island in
Connemara. Well thats what the voices in my head tell me...
On another point I always rather regarded Ireland (at least the part that is
separate from the UK) as being more likely to be part of the FSE (Being
pro-European mostly) or independent. Perhaps part of that Celtic
(pronounced with a K unlike the fottball team) Alliance someone suggested way
back.
One thing that struck me is that we are making an assumption that UN ship
names are all in English. Might it not be likely that some of these ships
might have African or Asian (or whatever) names as well? I presume that the
Korean name for their country is different from the English version.
Is Mount Kilimanjaro (probably mispelled this) the same in English as it is in
Afrikans? Might present some interesting sounding names for ships.
> Niall Gilsenan wrote:
...Snip...JTL
> Is Mount Kilimanjaro (probably mispelled this) the same in English as
Niall, As a point of interest, I have been informed that 'Afrikans' is a full
fledged language derived from Dutch.
Bye for now,
> ...Snip...JTL
IIRC, Kilimanjaro is in Kenya, so Afrikaans is not relevant.
> You wrote:
> Niall,
It's spelt Afrikaans, and starts as a degenerate form of Dutch, with a
French influence, a heavy English influence, and loan-words from a
half-dozen native African languages. It is the native tongue of the
Afrikaaners, aka the Boers, aka those White guys that usta to run South
Africa.
> At 16:56 08/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Africa.
Amazing how my rambling causes everyone to miss the point. Afrikaans was
simply the first language that sprang to mind. I know as much about as I want
to know. Oddly enough I do know a little bit about the
Boers/Afrikaaners since there were a couple of brigades of Irish troops
fighting on their side during the Boer war. Any excuse to pick a fight with
the British...
And if we really want to get into a linguistic discussion I could start naming
places in Irish. The point being that with regard to the UN fleet in Full
Thrust we shouldn't restrict ourselves to exclusively english names
for places. This would be more in keeping with the "feel" of the UN.
Or maybe not. Whatever works for everyone.
> Niall writes:
> And if we really want to get into a linguistic discussion I could start
Y'all have a good point. I would like to name things in the current (&
probably most accurate) way, which is what the locals call it. As far as I
know, most geographical features are already like this. But I had to pick some
language for the big ones, and stick with it, because the 'what the
locals call it' process breaks down at several points: 1) When there's a LOT
of ways to say it; Asia, Africa, etc; does everybody call the same feature the
same thing? Probably not. 2) While I want to put together a good ship name
list, I simply don't have the resources to find out what the accurate name for
everything in the local language is.
2b) This may be really Anglo-Ameri-Australo-centric, but English
is one of, if not the, most important language on the planet. I have to pick
something to use, and I'm trying to get a good flavor by using various
locations all over the world. The names will be romanized for ease of
pronunciation, and I've honestly got to say, the big languages in the UN of
GZG's 2185 will be English & Chinese, with French, German, Russian, Arabic and
(insert common African language here) running close seconds. I picked English,
cause that's what I know.
This points out why I'm sticking with natural features for ship
names -
less political debate.
> This points out why I'm sticking with natural features for ship
This is starting to remind me of the UN. Lots of debate but no firm
decision...
Kinda makes you feel sorry for the poor buggers, doesn't it? And we all
speak the same language, pretty much.
As far as firm decisions, I can't make one 'cause I'm not Jon T. But I'll
make my list, and I'll stick to it - as soon as those UN ship minis come
out.
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
> On 7 Aug 98 at 20:28, Noah Doyle wrote:
> Good ideas - I need an atlas with better goegraphy, and less
You could go with ship names of "qualities"
Indefatigable, Brave... etc etc.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> You could go with ship names of "qualities"
Involuntary, Incoherent, Incontinent, Invalid, Incapable, Incompetent, the
list goes on and on.
The Incontinent; would that be a troop carrier, an orbital bombardment ship,
or what?
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
> Noah Doyle wrote:
> The Incontinent; would that be a troop carrier, an orbital bombardment
Methane / High grade fertilizer transport, capable of delivering
tremendous
volumes of nitrogen-rich matrix to far-flung colonies.
Getting the matrix to remain on board is a difficult task- The
Incontient Class Hazardous Material Transports have a built in safety system
that automatically ejects
hazardous cargoes if a danger is detected. Unfortunately, the THV-2001
Autonomous Monitoring System was a little flaky and would randomly decide that
a dangerous situation occurred, (anything from approaching space debris to
rapid temperature changes in the hull) leading to the random ejection of cargo
into space. The
Incontinent Class has thus been re-classed as a bulk fertilizer
transport for the Colonial Office.
--Binhan
Noah spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Kinda makes you feel sorry for the poor buggers, doesn't it? And we
Speaking of Sorry For The Poor Buggers....
....I didn't catch the full piece in the news but I understand the US Embassy
in Nairobi, Kenya has been bombed this week by a splinter muslim group never
before heard of. I guess there are quite a few dead. I don't know if any
serving soldiers were amongst the losses, but in any case I'm sure some
civilians were killed.
Some people call such attacks 'freedom fighting' or 'resistance' with the
weapons available. I guess I have the luxury of living in Canada, being free
from oppression, and the military I trained with wasn't trained that way. To
me, this seems to be a reprehensible act of terrorism against civilians.
I think in our disussions of the UN in 2185 we have to keep in mind all the
impediments there will be to the UN (Way nastier terrorists, way more factions
due to fragmentation and outworld colonies) and other diplomats. Scenes like
this will arise scenarios like rescuing an overrun embassy, protecting rescue
workers, capturing thosre responsible, etc. Which, although not classic nation
A vs. nation B. stuff could make great SG2 material.
It's a pity that real life can't be fought with little lead dudes. They don't
bleed and as referess and players we can shape the world to avoid the horrors
that the real world is plagued with.....
Tom.
Noah spake thusly upon matters weighty:
Mass 250 HoneyWagon. (Ouch).
> The Incontinent; would that be a troop carrier, an orbital bombardment
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.softwarekinetics.ca or http://www.sofkin.ca or
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
I presume the Involuntary is an Ortillery platform?
"Well sir we didn't really want to bomb them, so we just hang around up here
till they give up. We're expecting their surrender any year now."
As for the rest...
Incoherent being a diplomatic vessel?
Invalid could only be an electronic warfare ship.
Incapable sounds like a frigate with an AA megabattery mounted on it but not
enough power to fire weapons.
Incompetent now that would be the fleets flagship but cunningly hidden behind
a silly name.
> -----Original Message-----
> You wrote:
> ....I didn't catch the full piece in the news but I understand the US
Speculation is that it's the Egyptian branch of the Islamic Jihad taking
credit under a false name. And there was also an attack on the US Embassy in
Dar Es Salaam in Tanzania, only five minutes prior to the Nairobi explosion.
Anyway, the embassies are located in the downtown
areas of capital cities. The bombs injured 4,800+ people, with a
confirmed death count of 209--most injuries were walking wounded.
"Only" 12 Americans were killed, which gives you an idea how many locals going
about their morning business were waxed or hurt. In fact many of the Nairobi
casualties were in the Ufundi Cooperative
Buildings, a four-story structure next door to the Embassy. Living
near DC, this is front page news still--a lot of the US diplomatic
staffs have this area as their home of record, and many leave their families
here when they go.
> other diplomats. Scenes like this will arise scenarios like rescuing
There's a hypothical Steel Panthers III scenario with a company each of
Belgians, French Paras, and US Marines protecting three buildings (their
respective embassies) spread out among an entire city and under attack by much
larger forces. I admit the only reason I won was because the computor was
stupid enough to bunch one of his attack forces up in the street in a single
hex. Harriers dropping a
half-dozen bombs will clean up anyone stupid enough to do that.
> responsible, etc. Which, although not classic nation A vs. nation B.
Yeah, I can see an embassy attack. A few high-quality light infantry,
perhaps off-shore (orbital?) air support, some State Department
security personell (those would be modelled by a figure in a suit with a
firearm and possibly a helmet, probably green), and a lot of families,
diplomats, staff members, janitors, etc hiding in the center of the building.
Attackers would be anything from rioting civillians to terrorists, insurgent,
or even someone's regular military, probably after mutinying (sp?) and joining
the Revolution, which drops the leadership to three since they shot all the
officers and sergeants and are running things as a democracy.
> It's a pity that real life can't be fought with little lead dudes.
*Imagines the UN in a rules debate like some Napoleonics or WH40K players I
know*
Might be enough to finally provoke nuclear war.
This has probably come up before, but the 3 British Battlecruisers
> At 06:58 10/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Nairobi explosion.
Apparently the American embassies in Africa are not as security concious as
the ones here in Europe. A friend of mine works out there and said it would be
shockingly easy to just walk in leave a bag in the front porch and walk away.
On another poiint, what was this CIA operation about that stirred whoever it
was to launch the attack?
On the point of SG2 scenarios and tying in with something that was mentioned
earlier is it likely that there would be interstellar terrorist organisations
in FT universe? The LLAR seems close in as far as it is very Mercenary based.
Would smaller nations be involved in acts of sabotage and so on against
hostile major powers? Is it this sort of brushfire war that the UN might be
involved with in the core systems?
The more I think about it the more interesting the UN becomes as an odd sort
of power in Full Thrust.
Do you happen to have any historic Irish ship names that you could pass along?
Thanks, Nathan
> -----Original Message-----
> You wrote:
> Hmm. Might just be that the major power made an unpopular decision
Not likely. Organized and recognized governments almost NEVER violate the
sanctity of an embassy. Even Hitler and the Japanese left embassys and
diplomats alone. That is not a protest action, that is a declaration of total
war, and a violation of international laws that cannot be ignored. Only a
pariah state would even consider that, and even then I can only think of one
occasion when embassys were violated
by an organized government--and Saddamn Hussein is so fraggin' stupid
it's a minor miracle he hasn't blown his own head off yet. (Duh! I'll piss off
the Americans and then let them spend 9 months organizing a response! My only
friends are the French, so I'll insult them on French TV and attack their
embassy too!). Especially in a fairly
bi-polar universe (French&Chinese vs. English&Germans), there would be
strong pressure not to cross certain lines.
Niall spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> On the point of SG2 scenarios and tying in with something that was
Probably. There's a thought, how's about the list members coming up
with some 2185 "phantom foes" - organizations to launch the
occaisional attack or to be attacked even more rarely for their terrorist
goals.... some may have roots in 1998, but many may well have roots in the
events between now and 2185. Ideas anyone?
Tom.
John spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> You wrote:
> >Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya has been bombed this week by a splinter
> US Embassy in Dar Es Salaam in Tanzania, only five minutes prior to
> many of the Nairobi casualties were in the Ufundi Cooperative
> attack by much larger forces. I admit the only reason I won was
> perhaps off-shore (orbital?) air support, some State Department
> a firearm and possibly a helmet, probably green), and a lot of
> of the building. Attackers would be anything from rioting civillians
> after mutinying (sp?) and joining the Revolution, which drops the
> are running things as a democracy.
Hmm. Might just be that the major power made an unpopular decision (like not
sending grain from Terra, or who knows what) and the locals
decided to capture their embassy in response - so they could be good
troops too. Then maybe the scenario is hold out for a few days against a few
waves of attacks until Ortillery or Jump Troops from
home come in to save the day and either re-align local power
structures or evac the mission.
> *Imagines the UN in a rules debate like some Napoleonics or WH40K
Yeah, but then it would just be a harmless card game in which case
no-one would get killed (only fictional population cards).
Tom.
> At 10:13 10/08/98 -0500, you wrote:
> and diplomats alone. That is not a protest action, that is a
I know this is once again dangerous territory but I don't remember the French
supporting Hussein. Certainly they seemed to be on the wrong side in Rwanda
(had supported the Hutu government for years). Most of the Western world
supported Saddam for years against the Iranians. I don't think anyone who
could lose a war, cause crippling economic sanctions which have killed hordes
more people than the war itself, and yet still remain a hero to a large
proportion of the population could be called stupid though. Insane but
cunning.
I doubt anything other than a terrorist group would hit at an embassy though.
It is the main route of diplomacy between nations. Why cut that off completely
unless you're so confident of victory you don't need to talk to your
opponents.
> At 07:56 10/08/98 -0700, you wrote:
Well there wasn't an Irish Navy until about the 1940's (we were still a member
of the British Commonwealth until 1949 when we bacame a republic). Most of the
Irish Navies shipsare named after mythological characters from Irish (Celtic?)
legend. It performs more of a coastguard duty than an actual navy. Mainly
stopping Spanish fishermen from ramming Irish boats.
Ship names so far include
LE Eithne LE Maev LE Macha LE Banba LE Setanta LE Ciara
Theres an unofficial Irish Navy site at
http://surf.to/the-ins.ie
which has a lot of details.
One name I always thought they might use is Grainne Mhaol. She was a
famous pirate queen/chieftain off the west coast of Ireland around the
the 16th (if I remember correctly) Century. Although naming a ship after a
pirate might cause consternation.
Hope thats of some help.
Niall spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> I doubt anything other than a terrorist group would hit at an embassy
Or you're on a colony world whose host government has done something
very wrong to - hence sparking a revolution. Perhaps you need the
ambassadors as hostages? Bargaining chips? Perhaps you just don't want
diplomatic ties anymore while you are being trodden under the boot of the
major power? Revolutionaries ain't always the most sensible folk. If it were a
FCT colony, it might well be that if the NAC stuck its nose in, the FCT
colonists would give their embassy a thrashing (since everyone knows its full
a spies, assassins, and even
worse - lawyers!). It might not be a 'kill the diplomats' thing - it
might just be 'capture them', but even so, the troops defending may have to
fight a force of regulars.
Or what if someone at an embassy had conducted some espionage or spying and
the 'object' in question (badly wanted by planetary forces) was in the
embassy. You might send in disguised regs amidst a crowd or on their own in a
'deniable' mission. The embassy might be a long long way from help or
investigators.....
Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay Software Specialist Police Communications Systems Software
Kinetics Ltd. 66 Iber Road, Stittsville Ontario, Canada, K2S 1E7
Reception: (613) 831-0888
PBX: (613) 831-2018
My Extension: 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255
Software Kinetics' Web Page:
http://www.softwarekinetics.ca or http://www.sofkin.ca or
SKL Daemons Softball Web Page:
http://fox.nstn.ca/~kaladorn/softhp.htm
**************************************************/
> John spake thusly upon matters weighty:
<SNIP>
> *Imagines the UN in a rules debate like some Napoleonics or WH40K
Except the participants would have to pay money to the U.N. based on the
population loss - I think we just found out how the U.N. gets the
funding for their fleet!
Better than that, follow this link
http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/gage/glacier7.htm to a page of LandSat7
glaciers that have bee disignated for study - lots of Glaciers from
around the world (I never knew there was a glacier in Bolivia). Also a link to
an
inventory of Eurasian Glaciers - should have more than enough names for
you.
Jared Noble
Noah Doyle <nvdoyle@midlink.com> on 08/07/98 07:24:30 PM
Please respond to FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
To: "'FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk'" <FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk>
cc: (bcc: Jared E Noble/AAI/ARCO)
Subject: RE: UN Ship Nomenclature
I'd appreciate any glacier names anybody can come up with, just send 'em to
me. I think I'll make one of the larger classes glaciers - maybe BCs.
Noah nvdoyle@midlink.com
[quoted original message omitted]
> Noah Doyle wrote:
I'm not quite sure what it is Sir, but when it hits the fan it is going to be
a big mess and cause quite a stink.
Bye for now,
> On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, John Atkinson wrote:
> There's a hypothical Steel Panthers III scenario with a company each
> attack by much larger forces. I admit the only reason I won was
Has anyone tried using the Steel Panthers series to simulate some DSII
battles. It seems easy enough to make MOB files with new vehicles and new
stats. But it'll be some work to translate the stats between systems
though. I've seen some new scenarios for SP that are DSII-esque, like a
new MOB file for the Lizards from Turtledove's WorldWar series.
> to terrorists, insurgent, or even someone's regular military, probably
> after mutinying (sp?) and joining the Revolution, which drops the
> are running things as a democracy.
The true measure of a revolution. The civil authority is run as a
dictatorship, and the military is run as a democracy.
> You wrote:
> I know this is once again dangerous territory but I don't remember the
Sure. They were kinda subtle about it. You see them now openly clamoring to
lift sanctions so they can sell weapons to him again. At least the Germans
were embarassed about selling him chemical weapons!
Anyway, the French were self-proclaimed neutral in the whole mess
during the summer of '90, then in they were the ones in Fall of '90 whining
and moaning about giving sanctions "time to take effect" (Based
on Cuban Example, 40+ years isn't enough time for sanctions to "take
effect") and the French Government even tried to cover up the fact that French
citizens were taken hostage along with other Westerners. Their Defense
Minister resigned over the issue of attacking Iraq. Indeed
said Minister, Jean-Pierre Chevenement, publicly proposed redrawing the
Iraq-Kuwait border to give Iraq the oil fields that were in dispute!
And the French initially refused to support the operation unless a French
officer was appointed to command it! This was quietly
squelched--but CENTCOM didn't actually assume command over the French
forces until after the bombs started dropping. Everything prior to that was
based on the personal relationships between the senior Allied officers and the
senior French officers.
> You wrote:
> Or you're on a colony world whose host government has done something
Perhaps you want to completely destroy any chance whatever of ever being
recognized as a real nation? Perhaps you wish to garuntee that your host
government will have a free hand in supressing the revolution in order to
"rescue" these diplomats? Perhaps you've got your cranium inserted somewhere
so firmly you can't see the light of day? Without outside support revolutions
don't suceed (except Eritrea, which is a hell of an exception to a lot of
rules). Imagine if the US had, as our first act as an independant nation,
rounded up a bunch of Frenchmen, kidnapped them, and abused them. Would we
have had de Grasse whupping a French fleet and 4,000 French Marines assisting
in the siege of Yorktown, thus garunteeing our independance? Somehow I doubt
it.
> sensible folk. If it were a FCT colony, it might well be that if the
Oooh... that's brilliant. If you were a FCT colony breaking off of FCT, seems
to me you'd WANT NAC interference to prevent FCT regulars from recapturing the
planet. And revolutions tend not to involve
really organized troops--like I said, rate them as leadership 3 since
they are holding debates on how to fight "OK, that's three votes to call for
fire support, 2 votes for fixing bayonets and letting the indomitable will of
the People carry us forward, and 3 votes to hold hands and sing songs of
Revolutionary Solidarity... " Also you're going to be understrength, and
especially short on commanders.
> Or what if someone at an embassy had conducted some espionage or
Somehow I doubt you'd get deniability out an operation like that. Legal
standards of proof aren't necessary when something like that occours.
John spake thusly upon matters weighty:
Without outside support revolutions don't suceed (except
> Eritrea, which is a hell of an exception to a lot of rules).
What about the American Revolution, the Communist Revolution in China, the
Russian Revolution? Do you really think that outside support was the major
factor in all of these?
> Imagine if the US had, as our first act as an independant nation,
Except that weren't you pals with the French at that time? Do you think
embassies in the history of the world have never been attacked by regular
forces? I think in that you'd be mistaken, although I'll admit I could be
wrong.
> >Or what if someone at an embassy had conducted some espionage or
> >crowd or on their own in a 'deniable' mission. The embassy might be a
> >long long way from help or investigators.....
And right now the US has trouble carrying out 'reprisals' against people who
commit terrorist acts against it. Sometimes they'll launch a reprisal, but one
has to ask oneself how many times they have no one to launch one against or
how many of the ones they've executed are in fact at the right targets (as
opposed to at a target for the purpose of saying reprisals have been
conducted). And that's when their forces are the biggest and baddest anywhere
and they're operating on one globe, not scattered across the far flung reaches
of space.
Now, I'll give you that the Major powers are to be respected, and I'll also
give you that some would have a reputation for NOT dealing with 'terrorists',
although some may well do so. I'll further give you that shooting diplomats
wouldn't always be bright. OTOH, you seem to think that the major powers have
phenomenal ability to project their power everywhere into all the corners of
the universe at once, that they have a gift for insight as to who did what
that far exceeds any demonstrated current day capability, and that having the
technical ability to carry out a reprisal is the same as having the political
will or ability to do so. I guess it all depends on your world view. I don't
think the Major powers are quite so monolithic or capable, and their actions
will (as US has demonstrated) reflect their territorial interests. An offence
against them in a small backward area that they aren't too concerned about
will be unlikely to result in a full scale military response. Now, if someone
moves with identifiable force against consuls on major worlds, that is of
course a different story. I imagine in many revolutions, capture (excuse me
'temporary detention for their own security') of foreign personel has actually
transpired.
:) Anyway, it's all just a game and we can agree that messing with Major
Powers is a risky manoevre, so its best that if you do this, you don't let it
be known who is doing it.
Tom.
> John M. Atkinson
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> How about Deserts? Mojave, Saharrah, etc.
Veru Good.
> How about Cities? New York, Hong Kong, Kyoto, Melbourne, etc.
This duplicates too many "national" naming conventions.
> How about Towns? Boise, Kingston, Berwick, Alice Springs, etc.
Ditto.
> How about Volcanos? St. Helen's, Krakatoa, Vesuvius, etc.
> Well, I still need a name-type for the Light Cruiser, Destroyer,
how about human rights? the UNSs:
Life, Liberty and Security Freedom from Slavery Freedom from Torture Legal
Recognition Legal Equality Effective Remedy Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest Fair
Trial Presumption of Innocence Privacy Freedom of Movement Asylum Nationality
Marriage''Property Freedom of Conscience Freedom of Expression Assembly and
Association Participation in Government Social Security Work Rest and Lesiure
Standard of Living Education Cultural Participation Order
i admit they are pretty long-winded names, but then that's the UN for
you.
however, you could then get amusing stuff like the UNS Life, Liberty and
Security bombarding civilian population centres, the UNS Privacy being
assigned to sigint work or the UNS Freedom of Movement to blockade duty.
the un declaration on human rights can be found at:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
alternatively, the names of treaties etc could be used: the UNS Charter, the
UNS Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the UNS Geneva Convention, etc
God I'd hate to serve on a battlecruiser named the UNS Cultural
participation...
Los
> tom.anderson@altavista.net wrote:
> > Well, I still need a name-type for the Light Cruiser, Destroyer,
> At 16:57 11/08/98 -0400, you wrote:
Not at all. You "participate" in the culture by blowing the hell out of them.
Not much more that you can do with a Bcruiser. Like the old slogan "Join the
army. See distant places, meet fascinating people, KILL THEM
ALL!".
> At 08:20 12/08/98 +0100, you wrote:
Fine by me. What about "UNSC Delicate balance of power" in that case?
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
Although I'm thinking the Replenishment vessel UNS Rest and Leisure sounds
like a fun berthing.....
> God I'd hate to serve on a battlecruiser named the UNS Cultural
Thomas Barclay replied to John A:
> Without outside support revolutions don't suceed (except
> the Communist Revolution in
> the Russian Revolution
> Except that weren't you pals with the French at that time? Do you
I can't think of any examples. If you can, quote 'em.
> And right now the US has trouble carrying out 'reprisals' against
That is a political incapacity, not a military one, as you noted.
> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> What about the American Revolution, the Communist Revolution in
Not to mention the Chinese Republican Revolution. (the one that overthrew the
Ch'ing dynasty)
ROTFLMAO!
Good point, Tony! Niall, are you listening? We've found them!
UNSCS Order - SDN, no two ways about it.
Noah
[quoted original message omitted]
> You wrote:
> What about the American Revolution,
If you were a USian, I'd shoot your high school history teacher. As you ain't.
.. The reason there was a conclusion to that nasty boondoggle was because of
France. At a dump called "Yorktown" some overbred idiot named Lord Cornwallis
got himself trapped. See, it's on a peninsula. The original plan was for him
to evacuate his army via the RN to New York to link up with another Brit army.
So he digs in to await retrieval. Besieging him are 8,000 Allied troops, split
evenly between American regiments and French Marines. The French contingent
also includes a lot of the artillery and engineers. So we're closing in on
him, when all of a sudden the RN finally arrives. As do the French. And once
in the entire French Navy's history, it beats the RN to little bloody
toothpicks. Then Corwallis gives up. Plus we had the French shipping arms,
uniforms, money, and ammunition to us like madmen. In fact, the French crown
went so far into debt to save us that it is considered one of the major causes
of the French
Revolution--the debts had to be repaid with crushing taxes, etc, etc,
etc. Plus there were independant foreign volunteers like Layfayette, Stuben
(neither von nor a Major General. He was a corporal who gave himself a field
promotion on the ship over here) and a Pole whose name I can't spell who
basically created our entire Cavalry branch from nothing.
> the Communist Revolution in
Yeah. Communists wouldn't have suceeded in China without Russian
support, plus the Japanese attacking the Nationalists--not intended to
support Commies, but had that effect. Russian Revolution would not have been
possible without German support.
> Imagine if the US had, as our first act as an independant nation,
You get my point? It's stupid to attack people who aren't involved. And yes, I
do think so. At least in the past three centuries when such rules had been
invented. If I'm wrong, cite an example.
> And right now the US has trouble carrying out 'reprisals' against
Political ones which aren't as much a factor in the much nastier world of
2183. And again, that's TERRORIST. I'm arguing that REGULARS would not be
involved. Since when does REGULAR and TERRORIST mean the same thing?
> French. And once in the entire French Navy's history, it beats the RN
> to little bloody toothpicks.
More accurately, the French didn't lose; the RN did because of disagreements
between commanders. French Admiral Suffren would be upset to hear you say the
French Navy only beat the Brits once, but he was in Indian Ocean and gets no
glory (except I think a FSE class is named for him).
> You wrote:
> More accurately, the French didn't lose; the RN did because of
It sounds better to say the blew the Brits to Toothpicks.:)
upset to >hear you say the French Navy only beat the Brits once, but he was in
Indian >Ocean and gets no glory (except I think a FSE class is named for him).
I apologize to his shade. Although I believe there is also a modern French
destroyer class named after him.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> If you were a USian, I'd shoot your high school history teacher. As
Isn't it just as easy to tell this story accurately as it is to beat your
chest over it?
> boondoggle was because of France. At a dump called "Yorktown" some
Well, I'd hardly call Cornwallis an idiot. He had a pretty good combat record
up to that point, and went on to continue a pretty good combat record after
the war in India where he engineered and led the campiagns which won the Third
Mysore War.
> a peninsula. The original plan was for him to evacuate his army via
There were approximately 17,000 US and French troops vs about 7,000
british. (Kegan, John "Fields of Battle" NYC 1996; Mackesy, Piers G.
"War for America" Cambridge, 1963)
> in on him, when all of a sudden the RN finally arrives. As do the
Umm actually it was an indecisive engagement, with out major losses by the
British. Still the commanders Graves and Hoods didn't feel they had enough
strength to push through the French to relieve Cornwallis and withdrew to
Yorktown. Hardly being smashed to Bloody toothpicks. (Mahan, Alfred T. "Major
Operations of the Navies in the American War of Independece" Boston, 1953;
Kegan, John "Fields of Battle)
> French shipping arms, uniforms, money, and ammunition to us like
Steuben was a "von". He was not a Corporal but a Captain who served with
distinction throughout the Seven years War and eventually wound up on the
General Staff, appointed Aide-de-Camp to King Fredrick II. It was
Benjamin Franklin and Silas Deane who decided that he should be represented to
the Continental Congress as a "Lieutenant general in the King of Prussia's
service" in order to ensure he'd be listened to. The rest is, shall we say,
history. (Palmer, John McCauley General von Stueben, New Haven, 1937)
Not that any of this changes the general story. But why diminish what your
saying by talking out of your fourth point of contact?
> On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, John Atkinson wrote:
> Yeah. Communists wouldn't have suceeded in China without Russian
> support Commies, but had that effect. Russian Revolution would not
The Russians didn't give too much support for the Chinese Communists, other
than the fact that some of the CCP leadership were originally educated in
Russia. (that was long before they became politically important in China, and
even then, the orthodox Marxist intelligensia
types were under the control of the likes of Mao Tse-tung) Most of the
Russian "aid" came after the Communist take-over, most notably in the
50s. The only thing important before that was the Russians gave the CCP the
equipment of the Japanese army in the Northeast. That would've wound up in
either Chinese or Russian hands anyways, and the Russians had absolutely no
use for them. But your point about the Japanese is
well-taken. They were truly the deciding factor in weakening the
Nationalist gov't. But even without them, the Communists already had leaders
like Mao who were not impetuous enough to use the failing
city-bound strategy the Communists were using in the early days.
As for the Russian example, I don't really recall what kind of support the
Germans gave other than sending Lenin to Russia. Also, what kind of foreign
support did Kerensky's revolution get? Along a similar line, what kind of
foreign support did the Chinese Republican revolution (1911) get?
We are seriously getting off topic here. I think the original problem was J.
Atkinson's argument that revolutions don't succeed without foreign support. I
find that hard to believe. There are many cases in history of indigenous gov't
overthrows.
I think the UN just became the Culture:)
Tony. twilko@ozemail.com.au
> At 16:57 11/08/98 -0400, you wrote:
> On 12 Aug 98 at 1:42, Los wrote:
> Umm actually it was an indecisive engagement, with out major losses
I think it's true to say that virtually all the naval engagments during the
age of sail were indecisive. Wooden ships can stand a tremendous amount of
punishment (HMS Victory had eighty shot holes in places where water could be
let in after Trafalgar and was still basically operational, some ships faced
many close full broadsides and did not sink, in fact only one ship sank out of
60 or so engaged during the battle rather than the storm following it, and
only because fire got into it's magazine.), casualties were usually
suprisingly light. (For Trafalgar HMS Victory had 102 casualties, 57 dead, of
a complement of around 800. The worst French and spanish casualties during
combat was around 500 out of 800 for some ships.) However, during that period
the average number of casualties per ship per engagement was about 5 dead! In
addition breaking off and escaping if things went against you was easily
accomplished. (Keegan, John "Battle at Sea")
This last point seems to be quite relevant to FT. I have found that using the
vector movement system, that unless one fleet is hopelessly outclassed in
thrust rating it's relatively easy to break off an engagement and escape if
combat is going against you.
This seems to reduce the chances of a decisive engagement.
My feelings are that SML based ships have a better chance of making a decisive
engagement under these conditions, since all of their punch can be used in the
early stages of the battle, perhaps making the battle decisive after only two
turns of contact.
While beam based fleets need to be able to have the time to wear their
opponents down... who in turn tend to have the chance to disengage and regroup
to avoid decisive defeat.
Has anyone any thoughts on this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Richard Slattery wrote:
> This last point seems to be quite relevant to FT. I have found that
In just about every battle I've fought I've sent ships packing once they were
damaaged to teh point where they couldn't contribute to the fight either
offensively or with PDS. I rarley do the battle of annihlation thing, (Space,
boardgame, or miniature), and to be honest with you it's really for the
completely hokey reason that having been on the sharp end myself a number of
occasions, I've not got the stomach to order the useless annihilation of my
forces even for cardboard victories. Especially since I'd rather have them
around to fight another day.
With SML, the problem is that they are too random in their punch. It takes a
lot of luck to cause massive dammage with SML (I had 3 missiles hit for 4
points!!!)
Especially against the NAC with their great point defense ships.
It makes rolling back escorts vital, so for the FSE,massive fighter attacks
and missile launches, and hoping to overcommit PDS the only way to go.
At least the FSE CAN run away!
Darryl
[quoted original message omitted]
> ---- noah wrote:
> ROTFLMAO!
i am glad that you find human rights amusing :-) these are comedy names
more than anything, but given that this is the company that brought you the
Phalons...
> Good point, Tony! Niall, are you listening? We've found them!
hold on! article 28 says:
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights
and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.
'Order' was the only obvious short name I could derive. it does not really
mean 'order' as in 'law and order'. Still, if anything this is even more
Cultured. "Diziet, the General Systems Vehicle 'Social and International Order
Conducive to the Full Realisation of Rights and Freedoms' is standing by.
Diziet? You seem to have fallen asleep..."
> Richard Slattery wrote:
> That wasn't my point. I was saying that once you *start* to get into
Fight somewhere he has to defend - his shipyards, colonies etc....
This solution seems to come up in every more or less serious essay of space
combat I've read <shrug>
> On 13 Aug 98 at 22:37, Los wrote:
> Richard Slattery wrote:
That wasn't my point. I was saying that once you *start* to get into a
potentially losing situation you can usually disengage (In the vector system
anyway). Or, on the flipside, once you start to win, the other side scarpers.
So how to devise a way of forcing a decisive battle under these conditions?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I was recently on the receiving end of a demonstration on how to use SML's. En
Masse. My opponent had cruiser sized vessels with multiple missle launchers
(but only 2 loads per launcher). He could, and did, through out enough SML's
in a single turn to overwhelm any defence on any ship. My big tough BB's died
in a single turn. When he ran out of missiles, his escorts closed in and
cleaned up what was left. He did this twice in a row. Once against me and once
against an NAC squadron run by another player. I think that the answer to this
is massed fighters but if he gets within range of any ship, that ship is
doomed.
Tim
> Darryl Adams wrote:
> With SML, the problem is that they are too random in their punch.