Hi, I just got DS2 and SG2, and my first mini, a Di'Tok (it is much smaller
than I wanted). I have looked at the rules and have the fallowing stats for
UBW hardware: UBW Military Tech:
Mauler Tank: Mass Cost
1x Size 4 - 20
1x MDC/3 (Primary Turret) 9 30 50
1x HEL/1 (Turrets) 2 12 62
1x GSM/H (VLS) (Superior Guideance) 4 60 122
1x Arty Observer - 50 172
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 247 1x Enhanced Point Defence System 3 45 292
1x Superior ECM - 45 337
1x Stealth 3 - 240 577
1x FGP - 23 600
1x Grav - 38 638
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 656
3x Superior Fire Control System - 18 674
APC Version of the Mauler Tank:
1x Size 4 - 20
1x MDC/2 (Primary Turret) 6 20 40
1x HEL/1 (Turrets) 2 12 52
1x Arty Observer - 50 102
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 177 1x Basic Point Defence System 2 30 207
1x Superior ECM - 45 252
1x Stealth 3 - 240 492
1x FGP - 23 515
1x Grav - 38 553
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 571
3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 583
1x Power Armor Base 8 -
Missile Support version of the Mauler Tank:
1x Size 4 - 20
4x GSM/H (VLS) (Superior Guideance) 16 240 260
1x Arty Observer - 50 310
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 385 1x Basic Point Defence System 2 30 415
1x Superior ECM - 45 460
1x Stealth 3 - 240 700
1x FGP - 23 723
1x Grav - 38 761
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 779
MRLS version of the Mauler Tank:
1x Size 4 - 20
1x Arty Observer - 50 70
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 145 1x Enhanced Point Defence System 3 45 190
1x Superior ECM - 45 235
1x Stealth 3 - 240 475
1x FGP - 23 498
1x Grav - 38 546
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 564
3x Superior Fire Control System - 18 582
3x SLAM/3 15 108 690
Command Version of the Mauler Tank:
1x Size 4 - 20
1x MDC/2 (Primary Turret) 6 20 40
1x HEL/1 (Turrets) 2 12 52
1x Arty Observer - 50 102
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 177 1x Basic Point Defence System 2 30 207
1x Superior ECM - 45 252
1x Stealth 3 - 240 492
1x FGP - 23 515
1x Grav - 38 553
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 571
3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 583
1x Command Systems 8 100 683
Area Defence Version of the Mauler Tank:
1x Size 4 - 20
1x MDC/2 (Primary Turret) 6 20 40
1x Arty Observer - 50 90
1x Local Air Defence 2 75 165 1x Basic Point Defence System 2 30 195
1x Superior ECM - 45 230
1x Stealth 3 - 240 470
1x FGP - 23 493
1x Grav - 38 531
1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 619
3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 631
1x Basic ADS 10 200 831
Tank Platoon: 4x Mauler Heavy Grav Tank 2x Missile Support Tank
Mech Inf Platoon: 6x Heavy Grav APC 6x Power Armour
SLAM Battery: 4x SLAM Carriers 2x Air Defence Tanks
Command Section: 2x Command Tanks
Cav Troop: 2x Tank Platoon 2x Mech Inf Platoon 1x SLAM Battery 1x Command
Section
A Cav Squadron is 4 Cav Troops. Comments and questions would be helpfull.
Thanks Bye Stephen
> DracSpy@aol.com wrote:
Before I get myself in trouble, this is 100% intended as constructive
criticism--I think everyone playing with the DSII construction system
has made these mistakes at least once. Take it in the spirit
intended--I know it gets a little. . . pushy at the end.
> Mauler Tank: Mass Cost
Three weapons systems? Why? You can only shoot one at a time. Go for a size 5
MDC, throw the rest out.
> 1x Arty Observer - 50 172
You don't need that many FOs or LAD systems, but your funeral, not mine. The
temptation is to throw everything and the kitchen sink onto every tank. It's
too expensive, and less efficient. Why spend almost 700 points on a tank to do
nothing in an activation
but call for fire, when you can have an 80-point APC in it's own
seperate platoon to do nothing but that? Why stick a LAD on every tank when
it's more efficient to have a dedicated ADS vehicle or two chopped down to the
company to cover the entire thing?
> 1x Enhanced Point Defence System 3 45 292
Diminishing returns get hit here--stealth 2 is all you need.
> 1x FGP - 23 600
Multiple FiCons is a super-tank-only option. Can't do it on size 5 or
less vehicle. And why have more ficons than weapons even if it was
legal? You know how I'd kill these? Infantry--you've got nothing but
one APSW. Get rid of the crap and add APFCs and a spare APSW or three.
> APC Version of the Mauler Tank:
Again, too many guns.
> 1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 571
You shouldn't need reactive armor on an APC. Against GMS/Hs it won't
matter anyway, and against buzzbombs, you've fscked up royally if your power
armor can't keep the evemy infantry away.
> 3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 583
Too many FiCons.
> Missile Support version of the Mauler Tank:
More than two GMS/Hs are overkill. They all have to go at the same
target, so why bother with more than two--on average, about half the
GMSs I fire hit. And about 5 out of 6 of those reduce their target to
smouldering wreckage. Pulling 20 chits, you are garunteed a systems
down result. And with 2xGMS/H, you can go for a size 2 chassis, which
saves you a lot of points. My favorite Tank Destroyer is the Romanus
Lecapenus, at 201 points. Let me assure you the sight of a platoon of these on
the board (5xTD, 1xAPC) is enough to send some of my regular opponents into
twitching fits. Actually, all my Akritai do that. I
think they are the most cost-efficient troops I have. :)
> 1x Arty Observer - 50 310
It was a bad idea on the tanks, it's a worse one on the support vehicles.
> MRLS version of the Mauler Tank:
Actually, it's not. MRLS is artillery system, this is direct-fire
unguided rockets. See comments about the GMS version, plus the comments
about multiple direct-fire systems and multiple firecontrols above.
> Command Version of the Mauler Tank:
Why? Are you going to kiss the enemy, or kick his ass? Pardon the vulgarity.
If you're going to kick him, you need much more ooomph. If you're going to sit
in the rear areas and contemplate your navel, you
need to strip out the weapons to make room for a real PDS--your only
threat is from aircraft firing GMSs.
> Area Defence Version of the Mauler Tank:
No and HELL NO. This thing has ONE, rpt, ONE function in life. That's to shoot
down aircraft and VTOLs. You waste him for a turn on shooting
at ground troopies, and that's the turn that every lizard-rapin'
aerospace fighter in the world is going to dive in and bomb it to hell.
> 1x Local Air Defence 2 75 165
Considering that an active ADS nullifies all stealth, you might as well save
your money. Ditto ECM. So upgrade that PDS with the space you saved throwing
out that MDC. It'll save your life.
> 3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 631
WTF are you thinking? It almost made sense when you had three guns on your
vehicle, it makes none here.
> 1x Basic ADS 10 200 831
Scrap the non-essentials, and you could stick an Enhanced ADS.
> Mech Inf Platoon:
Kinda light on the Crunchies, but that's your call.
> SLAM Battery:
What is the tactical function of this unit? IOW, what can it do that an
MDC-armed platoon couldn't?
In a message dated 99-02-05 00:05:19 EST, you write:
***
Thanks for the warning:)
***
<< Before I get myself in trouble, this is 100% intended as constructive
criticism--I think everyone playing with the DSII construction system
has made these mistakes at least once. Take it in the spirit
intended--I know it gets a little. . . pushy at the end.
> Mauler Tank: Mass Cost
Three weapons systems? Why? You can only shoot one at a time. Go for a size 5
MDC, throw the rest out.
***
These tanks are designed to emulate the idea behind the FCS that the army is
working on. It has a VLS in the back (it shows that this area can be changed
to a 3-man recon team, this might be a better idea)
***
> 1x Arty Observer - 50 172
You don't need that many FOs or LAD systems, but your funeral, not mine. The
temptation is to throw everything and the kitchen sink onto every tank. It's
too expensive, and less efficient. Why spend almost 700 points on a tank to do
nothing in an activation
but call for fire, when you can have an 80-point APC in it's own
seperate platoon to do nothing but that? Why stick a LAD on every tank when
it's more efficient to have a dedicated ADS vehicle or two chopped down to the
company to cover the entire thing?
***
I'll take that into consiteration, I'll remove them from all but one tank per
platoon, I want the to be able to work on there own.
***
> 1x Enhanced Point Defence System 3 45 292
Diminishing returns get hit here--stealth 2 is all you need.
***
Okay, I'll do that
***
> 1x FGP - 23 600
Multiple FiCons is a super-tank-only option. Can't do it on size 5 or
less vehicle. And why have more ficons than weapons even if it was
legal? You know how I'd kill these? Infantry--you've got nothing but
one APSW. Get rid of the crap and add APFCs and a spare APSW or three.
***
There is only one fire con, I just reprented the fact that there were three
weapon systems that needed FiCons.
***
> APC Version of the Mauler Tank:
Again, too many guns.
***
Okay, I'll see what I can do about reducing that.
***
> 1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 571
You shouldn't need reactive armor on an APC. Against GMS/Hs it won't
matter anyway, and against buzzbombs, you've fscked up royally if your power
armor can't keep the evemy infantry away.
***
The Army is working on a methed by which that hull is used to generate a Mag
field that will deflect the incoming projectile.
***
> 3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 583
Too many FiCons.
***
Refer to the above point about FiCons.
***
> Missile Support version of the Mauler Tank:
More than two GMS/Hs are overkill. They all have to go at the same
target, so why bother with more than two--on average, about half the
GMSs I fire hit. And about 5 out of 6 of those reduce their target to
smouldering wreckage. Pulling 20 chits, you are garunteed a systems
down result. And with 2xGMS/H, you can go for a size 2 chassis, which
saves you a lot of points. My favorite Tank Destroyer is the Romanus
Lecapenus, at 201 points. Let me assure you the sight of a platoon of these on
the board (5xTD, 1xAPC) is enough to send some of my regular opponents into
twitching fits. Actually, all my Akritai do that. I
think they are the most cost-efficient troops I have. :)
***
They are desgined to be based in the same hull, with a project that the army
is working on (I have a lot of articles on what the army is doing, all of it
is unclasifed, if you want them email me at IntrpdDDX@AOL.COM) that can engade
upto six AFV at the same time, with a missile system, this AFV would alow the
same idea.
***
> 1x Arty Observer - 50 310
It was a bad idea on the tanks, it's a worse one on the support vehicles.
***
Okay
***
> MRLS version of the Mauler Tank:
Actually, it's not. MRLS is artillery system, this is direct-fire
unguided rockets. See comments about the GMS version, plus the comments
about multiple direct-fire systems and multiple firecontrols above.
***
Okay, I'll change this to a Arty, this would be a MRLS system, right?
***
> Command Version of the Mauler Tank:
Why? Are you going to kiss the enemy, or kick his ass? Pardon the vulgarity.
If you're going to kick him, you need much more ooomph. If you're going to sit
in the rear areas and contemplate your navel, you
need to strip out the weapons to make room for a real PDS--your only
threat is from aircraft firing GMSs.
***
It's based in the APC Version of the Mauler, look at the Bradly (sp?)
APC/IFV,
look at the weapons that it has, I think that you will see that it has simular
weapons, please let me know if I'm wrong.
***
> Area Defence Version of the Mauler Tank:
No and HELL NO. This thing has ONE, rpt, ONE function in life. That's to shoot
down aircraft and VTOLs. You waste him for a turn on shooting
at ground troopies, and that's the turn that every lizard-rapin'
aerospace fighter in the world is going to dive in and bomb it to hell.
****
Okay, I'll change it so that it has better AD Weapons, then keep a few tanks
around to keep the enemy away.
****
> 1x Local Air Defence 2 75 165
Considering that an active ADS nullifies all stealth, you might as well save
your money. Ditto ECM. So upgrade that PDS with the space you saved throwing
out that MDC. It'll save your life.
****
Okay, I'll take that under advicement.
****
> 3x Superior Fire Control System - 12 631
WTF are you thinking? It almost made sense when you had three guns on your
vehicle, it makes none here.
****
The same as above.
****
> 1x Basic ADS 10 200 831
Scrap the non-essentials, and you could stick an Enhanced ADS.
****
Okay.
****
> Mech Inf Platoon:
Kinda light on the Crunchies, but that's your call.
****
This is modeled as a Cav Troop (as discribed in Armored Cav, Tom Clancy), the
reson for the large number of PA troops is to combat the enemy inf.
> SLAM Battery:
What is the tactical function of this unit? IOW, what can it do that an
MDC-armed platoon couldn't?
****
To meat the enemy and kick his *ss, but as you have pointed out that may not
happen.
> Stephen <DracSpy@aol.com> wrote:
Great!
> I have looked at the rules and
For a tank of this size, I would suggest size 5! :-)
For weaponry, I would suggest a MDC/5, and lose the HEL/1. You only
need one fire control system, not three. If you're trying to duplicate the
tank design on the Fort Knox web site, or a Soviet missile through barrel tank
design, one GMS/H is probably about right. Provided you use my
unofficial rules for indirect GMS fire, available on my site. Add in Superior
PDS at four capacity points. Fill the spare space with an extra APSW or two,
you can never have enough APSW when being overrun by infantry. Forget stealth
or only have one level. You don't need the Artillery Observer ability or the
Local Air Defence (LAD). That should make it a lot cheaper, so then you can
have more of them!
:-)
> APC Version of the Mauler Tank:
Have an unarmed armoured personnel carrier (APC) to carry observers in, as
it's cheaper on points.
> Missile Support version of the Mauler Tank:
Now you can have more of them and they're harder to hit automatically (smaller
vehicle).
> MRLS version of the Mauler Tank:
SLaM packs don't make a MLRS. Think of SLaM packs as like the unguided rocket
launchers on a Apache helo. Use Medium or Heavy Artillery instead of SLaM. You
don't need an artillery observer on a artillery vehicle.
> Command Version of the Mauler Tank:
Make it the command version of the unarmed APC version of the Mauler Tank.
> Area Defence Version of the Mauler Tank:
The point of combined arms is to use the strengths of your army against the
weakness of your opponents army. So make sure that your army has strengths, so
you can exploit the weakness of your opponent. Use the strengths of one part
to compensate for the weakness in other parts. This force's prime weakness is
numerical inferiority. So avoid contact with your opponent and stay out of
range of their weapons, but in your range.
> Stephen wrote:
Were these the Armour magazine back issues in.PDF form on the Fort Knox site?
I've got a copy of them. I was particularly interested in the tank designs
that are there. Particularly the Future Combat System and the replacement MBT.
Really interesting and informative. To get the abilities you need to simulate
this system, you really need my unofficial DSII rules extensions to GMS
available on my site. If these articles aren't the ones you mean, then please
email them to me
On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, John M. Atkinson fumed :-):
> DracSpy@aol.com wrote:
just a tad, but that's just part of the atkinson magic :-). what john
says is basically right, although there are a few points where different
opinions may be valid.
> > Mauler Tank: Mass Cost
a general rule with vehicles is to try and get them to do exactly one job very
well. you can give your force flexibility by including an appropriate mix of
units. note that this gives you more flexibility: you can't change your
vehicles much once you've built them, but you can reorganise your forces.
i see your comments on basing your PDS on recent US army proposals. this is
all very well, but unless you can work these proposals into the rules under
which these vehicles will be operating, these designs do not make
sense. under vanilla DS2, your HEL/1s are futile.
> > 1x FGP - 23 600
APFCs are a must on big tanks, otherwise they're just screaming out for
infantry assault. multiple APSW is nice, too - three APSWs on one squad
will usually be a pretty short story.
> > 1x Armor 4 Reactive - 18 571
i disagree. an APC - especially a big chunky APC like this one, with PA
on
board - is as much a target as an MBT, and is maybe more likely to face
missile attack, from other APCs and AFVs which wouldn't dare face a real tank.
reactive armour gets you bonuses against a bundle of annoying attacks,
including buzzbombs. making armour reactive doesn't add that much cost,
anyway.
> Against GMS/Hs it won't
so why would you need reactive armour on, say, MBTs? only if your infantry
have failed to properly screen them. no, given that these tanks have
armour 4, the edge gained from reactive armour is useful against GMS/H.
> > Missile Support version of the Mauler Tank:
this is very true - missiles are very much a light forces weapon,
whereas big massdrivers are a heavy forces weapon. there is no bonus defence
against a massdriver, whereas missiles are vulnerable to ADS, ECM, PDS and
reactive armour.
> My favorite Tank Destroyer is the Romanus
your regular opponents will soon learn to pull constant twitching fits to keep
you guessing ("who're you playing tonight?", "john a.", "oh, right. i've got
some amphetamines you can borrow...").
> > MRLS version of the Mauler Tank:
actually, it's not. MRL is a generic term, and MLRS is an artillery
system. you have to love that army word-ordering. anyway, i think
Stephen
can call his tanks whatever he likes - this vehicle does indeed have a
system for launching multiple rockets.
> > Command Version of the Mauler Tank:
i believe strongly that a command tank has no business possessing
offensive weapons - it is enough of a target that it needs all the
defence it can get.
> > Area Defence Version of the Mauler Tank:
completely and utterly. you need ADS as long as there are missiles and flyers
around, and you won't have time to shoot at surface targets.
besides, an ADS in ground mode fires as an RFAC/2, which isn't much
worse
than an MDC/2 in terms of range, and it's as good against infantry. if
you use andrew martin's rules for advanced ADS, you can even have an ADS based
on an MDC/2.
you might also want to get rid of ADVs and use the points to beef up air
defence on individual vehicles. you lose the AA capability, but i think you
can get PD to be just as good by beefing up armour, ECM and PDS. this
is just a thought - has anyone tried this?
> > Mech Inf Platoon:
if you're going to do infantry, do it properly, either get two squads of
ground-pounders in each APC, or make sure it has the right firepower mix
to effectively support infantry missions. what you don't want to do is have
the APCs "playing at tanks" and getting battered by real cav whilst your
infantry are dying for lack of fire support.
> > SLAM Battery:
it's better against infantry and massed light vehicles? i seem to recall SLAMs
having some sort of area effect. i could be wrong here. if i am, get shot of
this vehicle.
i hope this helps, Tom
> DracSpy@aol.com wrote:
One of the List Great Elder Ones wouldn't get it, but this is your first time
with the patented Atkinson Effect...
> Three weapons systems? Why? You can only shoot one at a time. Go
The HEL is only useful against ground targets, and anything it can hit, a
large MDC can hit harder and better.
> I'll take that into consiteration, I'll remove them from all but one
Do note all your platoon leaders can call for artillery on their own.
> There is only one fire con, I just reprented the fact that there were
You don't have to do that, and it's _expensive_. Cost with no benifit
is bad.:(
> They are desgined to be based in the same hull, with a project that
You'd have to houserule it to allow that. If your opponents let you, fine. If
not, cut the vehicle in half down the middle.
> ***
Yup. Med or Heavy.
> ***
APC/IFV,
> look at the weapons that it has, I think that you will see that it has
But a M557 Command Post isn't an IFV, it's an unarmed mod of an APC. That's
what you're emulating.
> > Mech Inf Platoon:
I said kinda light--that means I don't think you have enough of them.
I admit it--I cheated to get enough infantry. I used the Stargrunt
construction rules to say that since PA teams are usually three men, they fit
into 6 spaces instead of 8.:)
I would like to say thanks to all of you who have pointed out were I have
messed up. after rereading the rules I'm changing the HEL to an ADS, this
represent that the army is working on. The idea is to have a HEL (That is also
what the Army calls it) that can kill airplanes in inf, something that the ADS
does very well. I'm also reworking the other tanks, after I do a play test
tonight I'll let you know what happens. I have also done a little more work in
the Gawain Defence force, it has 4 Cav Troops, 6 Platoons of Milishia Assault
Cav Troops (Horse Mounted, they are the local Polo Team) 6 Platoons of
Milishia Rifle Cav Troops (The hunters and what not), they should be
interesting to play.
-Stephen
> On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:
> the Gawain Defence force, it has
> 6 Platoons of Milishia
<lol> now that's cool! however, it is a pretty big polo team - 6
platoons is something like 180 men, surely? surely that's not allowed!
> they should be
very!
Tom
In a message dated 99-02-06 08:06:24 EST, you write:
<< > the Gawain Defence force, it has
> 6 Platoons of Milishia
<lol> now that's cool! however, it is a pretty big polo team - 6
platoons is something like 180 men, surely? surely that's not allowed!
> they should be
very! Tell me about it, I just got done playing out a little scen were a Mech
Inf Platoon (using MICV) (supported by a med tank) was ambushed by part of the
Cav
Troop (4 stands of assault, normal, GMS/L basic, and APWS and a stand of
GSM/L
basic power armour. The NAC forces fired first destroying one of the
GMS/L
basic cav troops. The remaining GSM/L cav troops fired in the MBT and
got a
system down-target, but no other damage. The NAC did not have any other
forces so the UBW APWS fired on the NAC inf, destroying all but the
GSM/L, not
that they could do any damage to the troops. The PA troops fired on one of the
MICV destroying it, the Cav Troops fired on another MICV damaging it. The
next turn the MBT tried to get the heck out of dodge, but the GSM/L cav
group fired on it getting a BOOM and M chits destroying it. The remnets of the
Mech
Inf Platoon fired on the GSM/L and destroyed all of the stands, the PA
troops got another MICV and the Normal cav troops damaged another. On turn
three the 2 MICVs fired at the PA troops, doing no damage, in return the PA
stand got the last MICV and the Cav troops fired at the damaged MICV causing a
System
Down - Target crit, as the Power Armour troopers moved in on the MICV
they
waved a white flag. for the loss of four stands of GSM/L basic Cav inf
the UBW
got 2 Line rifle stands, 1 line APWS team, 1 GSM/L Enh team, 1 Medium
Battle Tank and four MICVs, not bad, if you ask me. Tom >>
-Stephen
In a message dated 99-02-05 03:39:47 EST, you write:
<< Were these the Armour magazine back issues in .PDF form on the
Fort Knox site? I've got a copy of them. I was particularly interested in the
tank designs that are there. Particularly the Future Combat System and the
replacement MBT. Really interesting and informative. To get the abilities you
need to simulate this system, you really need my unofficial DSII rules
extensions to GMS available on my site. If these articles aren't the ones you
mean, then please email them to me
In a message dated 99-02-05 03:23:05 EST, you write:
<< For a tank of this size, I would suggest size 5! :-)
For weaponry, I would suggest a MDC/5, and lose the HEL/1. You only
need one fire control system, not three. If you're trying to duplicate the
tank design on the Fort Knox web site, or a Soviet missile through barrel tank
design, one GMS/H is probably about right. Provided you use my
unofficial rules for indirect GMS fire, available on my site. Add in Superior
PDS at four capacity points. Fill the spare space with an extra APSW or two,
you can never have enough APSW when being overrun by infantry. Forget stealth
or only have one level. You don't need the Artillery Observer ability or the
Local Air Defence (LAD). That should make it a lot cheaper, so then you can
have more of them!
:-) >>
Its also about the crewing requerments, we don't have a large military force.
<< The purpose of this vehicle seems to be confused. No need for
HEL/1,
Artillery Observer, LAD or Stealth. Make it carry more PA infantry, at least
two teams. Upgrade PDS to Superior. Have an unarmed armoured personnel carrier
(APC) to carry observers in, as it's cheaper on points. >> Okay, I'll think
about it.
<< Loose the artillery observer, LAD, PDS, ECM and Stealth. Make the
vehicle size 2, just enough room for 2 GMS/H. Then you get a vehicle
much like the M901ITV or John Atkinson's vehicles. Now you can have more of
them and they're harder to hit automatically (smaller vehicle). >> It might
work.
<< Make its sole purpose the shooting down of aerospace and VTOL.
Loose the
stealth, superior fire control, MDC/2, artillery observer and LAD. Put
in a Superior ADS instead of the Basic one. Put in Superior PDS as well to
help
defend against airborne GMS/L, GMS/H or GMS/3. >>
What about making it a size 6 Tank and combining most of the funshion of the
other vehicles?
-Stephen