> You just need to play SFB with people who can handle the energy
How true!! SFB is great if a tax audit is your idea of a good time. It seems
rules lawyering is a route to victory in that system, and they have admitted
as much in the Captain's Tactics Manual!
I would like to see some of the more interesting SFB ships converted to FT.
Maulers, anyone? How about the B-10 or those amazing Federation CVs?
What about the Andromedans??? And let's not forget monsters...
> At 7:49 PM -0800 1/27/97, Mark Sigerson wrote:
I tend to gloss over the rules lawyering when I reread the Tactics Manual.
Let's face it, the rules mechanics make some of your tactical decisions for
you. For example, spreading your fire over a number of impulses to maximize
the number of weapon and power hits. The designer wrote the Damage Allocation
Chart years before anyone noticed that.
The big problem with SFB is that it's not so much a game, as a very
sophisticated set of mechanics (in the scientific/engineering sense)
that defines the interactions of a large number of systems: weapons, terrain,
power, crew quality, etc. If you spread out the chart that gives the rule #
for how system X (Asteroids for example) interacts with system Y (plasma
torpedoes) you don't have anywhere to put your beer and pretzels. There's a
rule for EVERYTHING
And that's why I play Full Thrust these days. There just aren't as many things
interacting with each other. You lose a little in tactical complexity, but
gain by boring the rules lawyers into catatonia.
> I would like to see some of the more interesting SFB ships
It's the power systems that make an SFB mauler unique more than the mauler
itself.
> How about the B-10
A supership with some interesting campaign rules.
> or those amazing Federation CVs?
See above. It's the fighters and escorts that make Fed carrier groups unique.
What about the
> Andromedans???
Open MT to the Sa'vasku section. Place under your pillow. Sleep. The
appropriate energies for designing the Andros in FT have been absorbed into
your brain. Be sure and share the rules you come up with.
> And let's not forget monsters...
And endless possibilities for solitaire scenarios. Just design the scenarios
for fleets instead of single ships. Flying a single cruiser around is a
learning experience, but not much of an actual game.
> Mark
Anyone wanna buy a <no kidding> large </no kidding> SFb and F&E
collection dataing back to 1979??
> At 10:49 PM 1/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
What about the
> Andromedans??? And let's not forget monsters...
And how about those Gorn Cruisers! They have the best phaser arcs in the game!
No matter which side you aproach them, they can hit you with 6 phaser
1's!
> hosford.donald wrote:
What
> about the
Don't forget the Klingon '6 o'clock' phaser hose, or the 60 degree off arc
where (on the D7) 6 phaser 2s and all 4 disruptors bear. (even better on the
C7 as they use Phaser 1s)
> At 06:22 AM 1/29/97 +1100, you wrote:
Ya! My favorite tactic was to take a gorn DD add one Plasma torp to it, and
then during the game plot a maximum speed of "turn mode 1" (that is travel as
fast as you can, and still have a TM 1). This usually means a speed of
3-6. Too slow? Not for a certain dedicated klingon player...he just
raced across the map, trying to beat my plasma reload! When he was point
blank, I let em have it! My gorn DD lost a couple of shield boxs, and his ship
was a cripple! Three turns and it was over! It certainly makes those
"overun'em players" think twice after that!
<Sarcasm mode on>
It seems a lot of people are of the opinion that the excessive
rules-lawyering of SFB is a BAD thing. But if one wants to faithfully
portray space battles in the Trek universe then it's actually quite
appropriate
--
after all, how many Trek battles are won by anything as mundane as *tactics?*
They're won because someone figures out a new and interesting way to activate
warp drive, or because Scotty/ Geordi/ Wesley/ whoever figures out how
to
reverse the polarity on the frim-fram in time to destabilize the enemy's
whachamacallit! In this spirit, I offer the following system, soon to be made
standard on all my Federation ships:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
DOUBLE-TALK GENERATOR (Cost: 25, Mass: 0)
The Double-Talk Generator (DTG) must be charged prior to use in a manner
similar to a Wave Gun. Every turn, the owning player rolls 1 die and adds the
total to any previous rolls. (The DTG always begins the game at
zero-charge.)
When the accumulated charge reaches *10*, the player may activate the DTG; he
rolls 2d6 and consults the following table:
Roll:
-------
2-3: You drop into warp unexpectedly; move your ship up to 3" in any
direction, and all enemy ships are unable to target you for this turn only.
4: You have re-modulated your shields: all enemy ships will do only
half damage until they have made a successful repair or DTG roll to
re-modulate
their weapons.
5: Your weapons ignore the target's shields for this turn and for every
turn until target makes a successful repair or DTG roll to re-modulate
their shields.
6: Any destroyed or damaged system may be brought back on line, even if that
system was knocked out by needle beam fire.
7: Any one weapon system does double damage this turn only.
8: You use the sensor array to project a holographic image of another ship
(your choice) entering the map. All opposing ships must treat it as real until
they make a sensor roll as follows: Basic sensors: 6, Enhanced:
5-6,
Superior: 4-6.
9: You have reversed the polarity of your tractor beam; move any one enemy
ship up to 6" in a straight line away from you. (If your ship does not have a
tractor beam, roll again.)
10: You have confused the computer of any one target ship ("Norman,
coordinate...."): that ship may not use any thrust or fire any offensive
weapons until it has made a successful repair or DTG roll.
11-12: By re-routing the tractor beam through your shields, you have
created a one-turn only Reflex Field, as per MT rules.
(Can ya' tell I'm a Babylonian at heart?)
> At 05:15 PM 1/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
Oh, come on. I distinctly remember Kirk using tactics once, in the second
movie. In fact, he used the third dimension and a big smoke screen (nebula) to
come up behind the Reliant! Unfortunately, the Organians rescinded that tactic
as throwing the balance of power out of whack. For that reason, the Q
continuum was called in to change the universe from a sphere (or a three
dimensional saddle, if you're a Hawking fan) into a big pizza, kind of like a
big, flattened cylinder. In this respect, the 2D tabletop of Full Thrust is
actually quite realistic for the Star Trek universe.
> They're won because someone figures out a new and interesting way to
I'd prefer the term Dual Phase Oral Logic Destabilizer, myself.
> (Can ya' tell I'm a Babylonian at heart?)
Me too!
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So, have you seen the first new episode since Kosh was killed? I once thought
the Borg were the most interesting aliens on TV, but they're wimps beside the
Vorlons and the Shadows.
And Picard never had to order a man and his ship to its death! All this and
political assassination too! I love Monday nights...
In message <970129153413_40626355@emout19.mail.aol.com>
> FieldScott@aol.com writes:
If Scott hadn't made this point, I would have done so (and I don't think it
would have been nearly so funny).
Star Trek is about characters and stories. Taking battles out of episodes
defeats the point. Episodes serve better as a model for RPGing rather than
wargaming.
The thread-originator mentioned the Kobiashi Maru, for example. I
don't know what it is in SFB, but in the film it was a no-win
encounter, to see how the examinee reacted to mission failure. An
exercise, therefore, specifically in role-playing and not in
wargaming.
(Presumably they were looking to see if the examinee retained the air of
heroically smug cultural superiority even in death...)
> (Can ya' tell I'm a Babylonian at heart?)
Do you really think B5 is any better? I'm not an expert on B5. I've got a heap
of borrowed tapes of season one. One story concludes
with a space-battle settled, not by tactics, but by the "player
characters" effecting the destruction of the enemy fleet by suitably heroic
action from a nearby planet. They even brought along a sacrificial NPC. Very
Trek. I hope that's far too vague not to count as a spoiler.
In message <199701300135.UAA17056@smtp1.sympatico.ca> Allan Goodall writes:
> In this respect, the 2D tabletop of Full Thrust
Indeed, there isn't even the need to impose a "ground scale" on the tabletop,
since Star Trek ships genuinely *are* that close when they fight each other...
> David Brewer wrote:
In a word...yes.
> I'm not an expert on B5. I've got a heap of borrowed tapes of season
Just wait until you see "Long Twillight Struggle" and "Fall of Night" from
season 2, or "Severed Dreams" and "Shadow Dancing" from season three. Massive
space combat, with lots of tactical wins. Cpt.
Kirk-like charisma, "heroic action," and
dramatic......................................pauses doesn't save the
crew in these battles.
Later,
One thing I've been thinking on regarding Star Trek/SFB ships is linking
of power to engines. In Star Trek, the silly Warp Engines are always going
offline, leaving the ship without sufficient power to fight, run, or operate
the cigarette lighter. The opposing theory of ship power as seen in Traveller,
etc. is that the ship has a bunch of fusion reactors buried in the center of
the ship and the power from those runs the engines. If the ship takes enough
damage to reach the reactors, its a goner anyway. This system also allows fire
into the rear arc, which is seen in the Star Trek universe. I want to be able
to use this as an alternative drive in the same universe as the regular
drives. Certain races in the game (bearing striking simularities to Klingons
and Federation) would use this system and I hope that the power loss would
balance the loss of the rear arc restriction. I'm not sure if that is the case
though. One idea is to possible have Warp drive be slightly more efficient,
giving a small amount more space available for weapons, etc. ANy comments?
Warp Drive:
Replaces normal FTL drive and provides FTL capability and main power for ship
systems. The Warp drives take two hits to destroy, as per main thrusters.
Since the warp drives provide power as well as FTL capability, when the drives
take damage, the player loses power to certain systems. With the
first hit, the player must take 1/3 (round down) of his current systems
offline. The player chooses which and marks them in some way. The systems
taken offline can be changed during the damage control portion of the turn as
long as correct number remain offline. The old "I can give you phaser power,
but we won't be able to use the transporters" gambit. The second hit on the
warp drives forces the player to take another 1/3 of his systems
offline.
Impulse Drives: Function exactly as normal Main Drives except that they are
only used in conjunction with Warp Drives and create no interference into the
rear arc.
> (Can ya' tell I'm a Babylonian at heart?)
*chuckle*
I hope you put your abestos suit on when you said that, David. ;-)
> I'm not an expert on B5. I've
Well, for one, your sacrificial NPC here plays roles in later eps. There was a
purpose to that whole event (though I agree, I would have liked to have seen
more in the space battle in that story).
Two, there are actually quite a number of space combat segments laced through
the B5 storyline that utilize tactics and strategy. Some of the ones that come
to mind are "Signs & Portents", "The Coming Of Shadows" (albeit massive tech
level differences there downplay tactics, but the tactics *are* there: 'the
Shadows only send as large a force as is minimally necessary to do the job'),
"All Alone In The Night", "And Now For A Word" (okay, so that was more of a
slugfest than really using tactics), "The Long Twilight Struggle" (most
prominent with tactics, even though the tech levels were vastly different),
"Fall Of Night" (again, good tactics using fighters vs ship), "Matters Of
Honor" (though some may argue that wasn't 'tactics'
but rather cheesy, lame method of resolving a situation - but then what
*is* tactics but using whatever's at your disposal to resolve the situation in
your favor??), "Messages from Earth" (again, 'cheesy' tactics, but it works,
and I count 'em), "Severed Dreams" (though action here is a bit fast to pick
out a lot of overall tactics), "Interludes & Examinations" (though we dont'
get to see NEARLY enough of the space battle here!!), "Walkabout", and "Shadow
Dancing".
Three...I don't have a three.:) I hope you can get ahold of some of the eps
above (some are better than others for space combat).
Mk
> In message <970129153413_40626355@emout19.mail.aol.com> you wrote:
> <Sarcasm mode on>
No no no! You've got it all wrong.
Sam's Star Trek Rules for Full Thrust
1) Set a time limit for the battle. 2) Set up and play the battle as normal,
except the Federation fleet is not allowed to win, or even gain the advantage.
3) Five minutes before the end of the battle, invent some technobabble which
gives the Federation a huge, unfair advantage (they modify
the quantum phase regulator of their neutronic higgs-boson particle
acceleration shield to generate a fluctuation in the strong magnetic force
used by the enemies gluon powered energy containment fields), which promptly
does 24d6 damage to all enemy ships. Any surviving ships disappear in a puff
of common sense. 4) The Federation wins, but promptly forgets how to use this
new technology come the beginning of the next battle.
> (Can ya' tell I'm a Babylonian at heart?)
Never would have guessed:)
<Sarcasm mode off>
In message <01IETDBQ1K5KEE63NR@avion.stsci.edu> "I know as a lemming I
> shouldn't be forming my own opinions, but such is life" writes:
> In message <32F02D16.3292@csd.uwm.edu> "Mark A. Siefert" writes:
Oh, you're too hard on them Mark. I'm sure someone on Babylon 5 actually has
charisma. We just haven't met them yet.
Still, as for... pauses, there could almost be a Full Trek rule in that for
combat initiative. When two ships unload on each other, count the dice and get
a referee to count them off, one, two, three... First one to say "fire" in
their best Pat Stewart voice (Klingons may sub in the correct Klingon word)
resolve that many damage dice. The enemy then resolve all their dice, then the
remaining damage is resolved. Would you go for shooting first, or wait for
your full allocation, and the chance that their first shots will kill or
cripple you? When do you break?
> At 04:23 AM 1/30/97 GMT, you wrote:
The problem with Star Trek is that the characters never change, never evolve.
Everything must end the episode at status quo. A group of them are made into
children and not one of them thinks that adding 20 to 50 years to their life
is a good idea. Picard is made into a Borg, there's one episode of remorse and
one where it's mentioned, but no other lasting effects. There's a Klingon
civil war, and then it ends in the next season with a return of the balance of
power. Diana gets pregnant, has a kid, the kid dies, she's back to normal in
the next episode. I could go on (and on, and
on, and on...).
Spoiler space for anyone who hasn't seen 4th season
B5's story and characters have been plotted to evolve. Sheridan died, was
brought back to life, but now has a drastically reduced lifespan. The Centauri
ambassador has become the Prime Minister due to assassination and WILL become
the emperor. G'Kar, the Narn, has been slowly, but noticeably, changing from a
vengeance seeking hot head to a calm man of spirituality, in spite of being
tortured and having an eye plucked out. Garibaldi, the security chief and
probably the number 2, or 3 character seems to have been influenced by the
Shadows (or is at the very least some sort of mole). And this doesn't even
BEGIN to touch the plot developments. In fact, in 4th season we discovered
that the War between the Shadows and everyone else is not that at all!
Sorry, but Star Trek pales in comparison.
> Do you really think B5 is any better?
Yes, by an order of magnitude. B5 is developing into I, Claudius in space.
> I'm not an expert on B5. I've
Ooo! Not all that hot. In fact if it wasn't for some back story, you'd be
better off jumping into season 3.
> One story concludes
There was a bunch of that. The first Shadow ship to be destroyed was destroyed
by using a dangerous and untried tactic. Not really double talk, but sort of
Trek like. The second Shadow ship was destroyed purely by tactics. Most of the
battles so far have been won by tactics, usually involving the Alliance
jumping the Shadows with a bigger fleet. Lots of ships destroyed on both
sides, but the victory was due to tactics, not double talk.
> Allan Goodall writes:
@:) The problem with Star Trek is that the characters never change, @:) never
evolve. Everything must end the episode at status quo.
To be fair, although they haven't reached B5's level, the DS9 writers have
been a lot better about this. In fact, given that they
haven't got the self-imposed apoptosis of B5, I think they're doing
about as well as can be expected. Much less pleasing is Voyager.
Here is a perfect opportunity to plan the large-scale plot of the show
in advance and move everything slowly towards a conclusion, and they
completely blew it.
DS9 has a continuing plot involving the Dominion and the insidious
shapeshifters thereof. The Federation is (apparently) riddled with spies, and
the Klingon empire was actually being run by a shapeshifter until recently.
Also DS9 doesn't dance around the religious issue as much as typical ST.A few
weeks ago, Sisko turned into a prophet and vision junkie who was willing to
die rather than lose the
ever-clarifing ability to understand the future.
So it's not B5 - where a character vanishing is usually NOT (gasp!)
the sign of a contract deal falling through, but it keeps me interested. It's
better than nothing.
> At 03:52 PM 1/31/97 -0500, you wrote:
You could be right. I've only seen two full episodes of DS9 this season and
one was the Tribbles episode. I noticed that Odo, who supposedly lost his
powers after a trial by the Dominion, just got them back on this week's
episode. Back to status quo.
> Much less pleasing is Voyager.
You mean Gilligan's Island in Space? You know what my favourite Voyager
episode is? The one where they almost get back to Alpha Quadrant. (Buh dump,
dump, ching)