LOL- how very true!
combat soldiers will rapidly go through their weapons and equipment, making
vale judgements about must have, nice to have and must be tossed!
in the RVN ther were 20 plus USA inantry TOEs in use, and every one ofthem was
modified by soldiers in the field to sit their needs.
in the BIG RED ONE, we were issued piece of crap helmet radios for the use of
squad and fire team leaders.
we made a determined effort to destroy or sink into very deep water everyone
we were issued, until the powes that be wised up and issued 4
PRC-25s to each infantry platoon.
when issued piece of crap M-16s, we replaced them with M-14s, and even
AKs. when these were taken away, and "improved " M-16s re-issued, M-14A2
(the SAW ) was retained, USA issue 12-ga pump shotguns, privately owned
shotguns and pistols appeared in huge numbers, along with scrounged
M-3 grease gns, Swedishs and M-2 carbines as backups.
the brass took away the WW II backup weapons, but left the GI shotguns,
privately owned weapons and the M-14A2 SAWs alone.
TOE called for 2 LMG per infantry platoon, but we "liberated" enough to have
add at least a 3rd LMG per platoon, and the number of M-79s increased
from 1 per squad to 2 per squad in an effort to make p for lost
firepower during the routine mass M-16 malfunctions that occured in
almost every firefight.
soldiers will find a way to increse their own survivability regardless of what
is fficial or not.
DAWGIE
> DAWGFACE47 wrote:
> LOL- how very true!
*SNIP*
> soldiers will find a way to increse their own survivability regardless
It's a pity governemnts aren't smarter about paying attention to what soldiers
determine is "Must have." Hey, since it's fiction anyway, you can always have
your SF power do just that.
Or maybe that's more fantasy than SF.
2B^2
> when issued piece of crap M-16s, we replaced them with M-14s, and
I can't remember where I read this, but in LRRPs in Vietnam, the 5-6 men
used M-14s, shotguns, M-79 Grenade Launchers and even AK47s: anything
except
M-16s, not just because of (un)reliability issues, but because nothing
attracted the enemy more than the sound of an M-16 rattling away
Interesting to see that spill over into more regular (or am I making an
assumption here) units.
DONOGH, we ha so much trouble with M-16 malfunctions-due to design
problems with the weapon , the magazines, and the ammo-that it only
took a couple of firefights to make a soldier look for a better weapons to
stake his life on.
nothing more pitiful than seeing a dead GI with his Mattie Mattel disassembled
and in pieces around his corpse.
or wasteful of soldier's lives.
and the sheer pucker factor of firing off a magazine, or 2 or 3, during a
firefight, then hearing CLUNK! instead of POP! has to be experienced to be
believed....
or struggling to "TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION" (pull back and lock the bolt, remove
the magazine from the rifle, and then run the previously assembled (if you are
smart!) 4 piece cleaning rod down the length of the rifle's bore to knock the
baked into the chamber expended cartridge casing out of the chamber!
then remove the cleaning rod, retain it in your left hand, insert the
magazine, release the bolt to chamber a round, and then shoot POP!
and then repeat the "IMMEDIATE ACTION STEPS".
and all the while, you can hear those AKS and SKS banging away without
pausing, hear the SMACK! of incoming rounds or the CRACK! as they fly
by . . . . .
a wise soldier fixed his bayonet ASAP after the fight started, because
HE KNEW the NVA/VC were gonna rush his unit during the drop off in
firepower due to expected malfunctions....
the squad, fire team leaders, LMGs (especially the LMGs) and the grenadiers
would try and take up the slack when this happened. unfortunately, the Sls and
ASLs were soon in the same shape as the
riflemen after 2-3 magazines. . . .
i got an M1917 trenchgun (12-ga pump shotgun) and carried it in addition
to my M-16 at first, then later abandoned the M-16 completely and a dded
a.45-cal Colt autopistol to my personal armory.
the way the WINCHESTER was made, i could hold back the trigger, pump the slide
and blast off 40 projectiles (from 6 rounds) in less time than
a soldier with an M-16 could fire off and reload his M-16. if i loaded
with NO4 turkey shot from the States (which i had mailed to me by the case)
instead of GI 00 shot, i ld bang off 20 odd projectiles per round fired, so in
effect i became a LMG of sorts.
i cried my shotgun ammo in leather 50 round bandoliiers made on the local
economy, in GI ammo pouches, claymore bag and in some bit
ex-Canuch ammo pouches from the frozen north at times.
i held some exra rounds in my left hand (the one i worked the slide with, and
even in my mouth if needs be) and reloaded between shots if possible.
plus had a nice big bayonet, and a heftty shotgun for those up close and
personal encounters.
(the trigger disconnector was designed for this in the M1917s, but not in the
later military pump shotguns)
anyone that can find a USG surplus M1917 Trenchgun ought to buy it! like
having a nasty LMG for home defense.
DAWGIE
> On Fri, 2002-03-01 at 12:21, DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
I saw what you described in the movie "Platoon Leader", I wondered how close
to reality that might have been... Apparently pretty close. Weird how
Hollywood does that sometimes, just to freak us out...
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
> DONOGH, we ha so much trouble with M-16 malfunctions-due to design
I got the impression that the was a very good weapon *except* for the problem
that the maintenance instructions that were issued with it assumed that it was
firing a cartridge with a different (cleaner) powder composition, and that if
it was cleaned at much greater rates than suggested (probably a real PITA), it
was actually quite reliable. The south
vietnamese actually thought rather highly of the AR-15, and it was the
strength of their endorsement that got the US army to adopt it.
Using a cartridge that produced more fouling than anticipated, in a gas
operated weapon, without telling the GI's, was a horrible mistake, but the
weapon itself was not that bad. For truly bad weapons, you need to examine the
truly excellent* sporting piece, built by a friend of the War Minister, that
the canadians introduced to mud (with disastrous results), in the
WWI--
the Ross rifle.
* I am not being sarcastic, under ideal conditions it was a very accurate
firearm, but the trenches were nowhere near ideal conditions.
> On Fri, 1 Mar 2002, Richard and Emily Bell wrote:
> For truly bad weapons, you need to examine
The Canadian Army actually used the Ross *as a sniper rifle* until the end of
the Korean War, which is not a bad length of service for a weapon that
was so maligned and ill-suited to it's original role.
Canadian soldiers used to crawl out into no-mans-land in WW1 to retrieve
the Lee-Enfield rifles of dead British soldiers, so they could loose
their Ross rifles in the nearest shell crater.
The Yanks had to wait until Vietnam & the early M16s to have a similar
experience with their main combat rifle. Either way, it would suck for the
soldiers on the ground.
SF bit: imagine being the guy to carry teh first plasma gun into combat.
That would be highly entertaining - from a safe distance away!
M-16 was badly designed.
a. the buffer assembly group had to be redesigned to slow the rate of fire.
b.the ammo feed had to be redesigned to prevent the bolt from stripping off 2
rounds at once on occassion.
c. the extractor failed to extract fired cartridges, and another was jammed up
against IT.
d. primer fouled the chamber and then baked round into it, and the extractor
COULD NOT remove the expended casing.
d. magazine-steel originally was badly designed and would fail to feed
rounds.
e. aluminium 2nd generation magazines had faulty springs that collapsed when
20 rounds were loaded, so 18rounds were loaded, and the spring STILL COLLSED
UNDER STRESS.
f. redesigned cartridge propellants would occassionally NOT fire-only
the primer would fire.
g. the bolt failed to go all of the way forward after firing until a special
FORWARD ASSIST device was fitted.
h. three pronged flash suppressor-good for opening C-rat boxes-bad for
use in jungle! all too often the muzzle would spear into the ground when
hitting the dirt and plug the muzzle.
i. officiall KEEP IT CLEAN and CLEAN OILY RAG policy was a bit bizzarre in the
jungle. we cleaned matty mattel 4 times a day in dry season and as needed
during rainy season (usually 6 times or more), AND IT STILL MALFUNCTIONED!
j. matty mattel would JAM TIGHT WHEN IT GOT WET!
k. matty mattel would JAM TIGHT WHEN IT GOT DUSTY!
the later two bits of wonderfulness made life really grand during
wet season when EVERYTHING was wet and the dry season when dirt/dust (as
fine or finer than facial powder) covered EVERTHING!
as for the ARVN: they were using transferred WW II and Korean War issue
M-1 rifles (some full size, others cut down to be more ARVN friendly),
M-1 and M-2 carbines, M-3 grease guns, Tommy guns, BARs, and air-cooled
tripod mounted browning LMGs. pistols were.45s and.38 revolvers.
only the ARVN airborne, rangers, marines, and special forces had
AR-15s M-16s, M-79s and M-60s until about 1969 - 1970.
and the damned ARVN got first issue on all of the improved magazines and
rifles from 1970 onwards, while GIs made do with what they had.
all of the above is based on my own real life observations during 2years and 6
months RVN service in the III Corps, IV Corps, II Corps, and Capital Military
District.
i do not know what the new M-16 is like, but i would be very reluctant
to trust the "official reports" concerning these.
reason? when the "official reports " claimed wonderfulness, i saw "real life"
evidence of a piece of crap being pushed by the mcnamara crowd at the
pentagon.
in other emails i have discussed the upside of the matty
mattel-lightness, shortness, lighter ammo weight per number of rounds
carried, etc.
DAWGIE
> reason? when the "official reports " claimed wonderfulness, i saw
Ron, I carried one for 20 years and the problems you site never happened to me
thankfully. The rifle although of similar design did get a major
re-work
after Nam like a steel bolt carrier, and well made ammo (big difference).
> DAWGFACE47@webtv.net wrote:
[much snipped]
I learn new things everyday.