This is a GAMING list not a RELIGION list!

4 posts ยท Jan 27 2002 to Jan 28 2002

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 21:01:29 -0500

Subject: This is a GAMING list not a RELIGION list!

I direct this set of comments generally to the list and not specifically to
any one member. No one is being singled out or exempted, and I include myself.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. However, there is no obligation for
each of us to share his opinion in inappropriate forums.

Regardless of ones opinion on races, religions, or cultures, there really
isn't a need to make this list a place for debate. There are three good
reasons this is so:

1) We're mostly all of the "already have an opinion" variety hence all we're
doing is creating noise and changing the SNR of this list in an unfavourable
way. So why bother?

2) Some people are easily offended. It doesn't really matter if this is a
great way to be. It doesn't also matter that speaking your mind (regardless of
content or lack thereof) is your right. These facts are irrelevant to the fact
that some people will be upset and since that upset will serve no particular
function and perhaps suggest to them going elsewhere is wise, then the
community suffers. You have the right to say what you want. You have the right
to say that what somebody else said is a load of crap. You have a right to be
absolutely ignorant to one another. NOT ALL RIGHTS NEED BE EXCERCISED!
Ultimately, the value of this list is its diversity of contribution and
opinion. Another (IMO) value is interchange of ideas. Once people retreat from
interchanging ideas to sniping at one another in harsh ways, the ideas get
lost in the mix and the value of the list drops. So, let us TRY to not go
their needlessly. Politeness and discretion (the decision not to say things
that are controversial, upsetting, or offensive to others) aren't
requirements. But they are how one behaves in a community. When civility goes
away, and controversy and offense is all that is left, you no longer have a
community.

3) Getting a rise out of people and setting them off isn't a mature way for
anyone to entertain themselves. Most of us gave that up after puberty.

4) (BONUS POINT)

People stirring things up for no other reason than because they feel the world
needs to know their opinion (whether it is backed by fact, personal
experience, or messages from their
alien masters) _piss_me_off_!

My time is (at least according to me and those who pay me) valuable and I'd
rather not have it wasted having to parse through digests whose contents have
value except in outlining entrenched views (on both sides) regarding X
religion, Y cultural group, or Z race.

In simple fact, one can argue that X cultural group appears today to have a
cultural or historic tendency towards behavior B. What that says about an
imaginary future 200 years away is ENTIRELY CONJECTURAL. If one can make these
conjectures and projections in a civil manner with the willingly admitted
caveat that this represents one possible view, then they probably won't
offend. If one appears to offhandedly slander X because of B and asserts
without question that with certainty B will continue to be the behaviour of X
and that anyone who thinks otherwise is an <insert insult>, then one is
claiming a clairvoyance that suggests they shouldn't be wasting their time on
this list but should be busily advising world leaders, making themselves rich,
or heading off major future crises. Clearly this game is beneath their
inestimable talents. Don't waste my (and presumably other peoples time)
stirring up tempests in a teacup (or responding to
temptests stirred up in the teacup) - it won't
help the list, it won't convince the people you are in conflict with, and it
usually has bugger all to do with an IMAGINARY FUTURE WHICH IS ALREADY
UNLIKELY AS HELL AND EXISTS ONLY IN OUR MINDS.

Here endeth the sermon. Flame away OFF-LIST
or just decline comment. I'm going to spare the list by refusing to comment
again on crapulent
behaviour by long-time listers. Even
commenting on such petty churlishness leaves me with a befouled feeling....

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:41:51 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: This is a GAMING list not a RELIGION list!

> --- Thomas Barclay <kaladorn@magma.ca> wrote:

> In simple fact, one can argue that X cultural

Tom--one minor point.

We are discussing a future in which there "are no good guys", right??

If peace, love, and happiness haven't broken out among civilized democracies,
why should anyone be offended by the statement that Muslims are not terribly
likely to become Ghandian pacifists? Everyone in the
GZG-verse is a bit of an extrapolation from the more
"negative" tendencies of historical cultures.

The NAC is an imperialist, arrogant bunch with the delusion that the entire
universe should be given the benefits of their culture.

The ESU are Commies in Space, no more need be said.

The FSE are... French.

The NSL has resurrected both Prussian militarism and Austrian imperialism.

The PAU is... never mind.

The IC and OU fought a war over colonialist spheres of influence in the South
Pacific.

And the IFed runs around firebombing peace conferences!!

So in the GZGverse no one is going to become Ghandian pacifists. Would make
for a pretty damn boring wargame, in my opinion (Ha! You fool! My elite Hunger
Strike Squad has gotten CNN coverage. You're done for!). Feh.

Now In the Real World, no one knows (I certaintly havn't made predictions)
exactally what the future will bring. One can say that certain philosophies
will either engage in Behavior B or mutate until they are unrecognizable. Then
the question is exactally how mutable the philosophy in question is. Some
belief structure change heavily--would Henry VIII
recognize the Anglican church of today? Others stay
pretty much as they were--the Taliban's version of
Islam would be pretty familliar to Mohammed, once you explained why you
carried AKs instead of swords and bows.

From: Adrian Johnson <ajohnson@i...>

Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 02:52:22 -0500

Subject: This is a GAMING list not a RELIGION list!

Thanks Tom,

You said what I meant, pretty much, but way better. And more politely.

My apologies to almost everyone on the list for wasting bandwidth when Tom did
a better job of saying what needed to be said, and it seems some of the
discussion has gone off list, anyway. I get the digest, and posted my response
before getting this one...

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From: Donald Hosford <hosford.donald@a...>

Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 02:30:51 -0500

Subject: Re: This is a GAMING list not a RELIGION list!

I think this entire message should be added to the List FAQ (if it isn't
allready...)

Very well put!

(Should we send this on to the nobel group?)

Donald Hosford

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> I direct this set of comments generally to the