THe SML vs Banzi Jammer Debate

Okay Alan,

I was with you till you said that SML's are too powerful if you completely
remove Banzi Jammers. Are you'all ready....... Yup..

[Large Caliber Flaming On]
Frigging Lame Pansy's....... you're afraid to loose quickly! I say lets delimb
ya'll........ SML's are cool... unfortunately not cool

enough really.	Why.........
[Flame mode off]

Okay, back to some logic + what I've experienced in my groups play.
I'll modify this to say:

Yup "sub" type SML boats have seen considerable use in my group
(Waldburg-M type of design).  However, we did use the Free Cal Tex
Kennedy Class missle cruiser quite extensively (Mass 90, 4 SML's (2 rounds of
SML's each))... I've got an updated design I'll have to post at some point. We
use cinematic movement, 6" lock on radius and tend to

use either fleet book designs or our own setups (Sometimes against fleet

book designs). And Yup... everyone seems to like the NSL designs.

FSE standard designs bite. They're fast, have reasonable SML launch's but
don't have enough SML's to do the job they're ment to do. Aka hit
hard and fast for 2-3 turns and then scoot.  They sacrifice additional
protection/salvo's so they have the drives to run.  Makes more sense
from a campaign perspective then a 1 off perspective. Our 1 off missle boats

have average thrust (4) and tend not to be larger then cruisers. We try

to pack as many salvos as we can in them. Why you all ask?

Yup there 2 things that SML's do really well: 1. Reduce Opponents movement
choices: What do I mean by this. Yup you can use SML's to make an opponent
want to move in a certain direction ( great for setting up a 2 prong attack or
a feignt... but really expensive in terms of expended weapons

mass) 2. Hit hard and (hopefully) destroy ships in 1 turn: What does this
mean. Just that the SML (if it can overcome PDS and
        class-1 defensive fire) has the potential to way last to your
enemy's ships in 1 turn. However you need to examine the disadvantages very
carefully(*).

What do they do poorly: 1. Run out of ammo really quickly: You usually don't
want more then 3 rounds of fire from you launchers. Usually you loose the
launcher or the mag by the 2nd threshold (Murphy's law there... which is
usually by the 2nd or 3rd round of intense

fire hopefully you've shot the wad by then...) (Hum... hum.... Alan said BJ
hummmmm.... Errr Fire! Fire! Fire!) 2. Get Defended Against: The average SML
salvo does ~13 pts damage lets say (3.5 missles hit
        roughly/strike doing roughly 3.5pts damage each or so...)
An average PDS mount shoots down.8 missles. An average
Class-1
beam shoots down.33 missles (Not counting rerolls). You're average
        FTFB cruiser can fire 2 pds, 2 class-1's so we're talking about
        -2.4 missles ( or maybe 1.1 missles hit doing 3.5 pts/each ) or
3.8pts
        of damage for that salvo.  Now if I have an 2*Class-2 beam (4
mass)
        vs 4mass of SMR (or 5 mass for 1 SML + 1 round mag).  I can do
.8 * 2 (1.6 at 24" or 3.2 at 12", not counting reroll damage) And I Can keep
doing this! What That's not fair... WAH!! WAH!!! WAH!! 3. Select their targets
(This one doesn't make too much sense to me, even from a PSB pov, don't
         we have guided missles/wire guided stuff now!  DOn't we have
fire and forget missles that are pretty small now! Can't we say that SML's can
distinquish targets [ that's how we play in my group]. But this does lead to
how do you fix MT missles...
         (We're using mv 36"/turn, 3 turn endurance, 2pt max heading
change/
turn. Armored (treat like hvy fighters). Follow your orders
... but
no one really uses them...) Now this is where the Banzi Jammers really ruin a
neat weapon system. For the SML to overcome DISADV 2, it needs to have a good
ADV 2 point to it. Without the ability to strike hard at its intended target,
        why would you ever take them?  Yup I know, 1/2 arm, 1/2 hull
crap.. but
        P-torps do that.  And you can keep firing them... no stinking
ammo crap. Look I don't think SML's are overpowered.... why... see below.

[ Rant and Rave mode on ]
Our group has found the following to be true of SML fleets...

1. If you use them...(or fighters) and your opponent has a head on his
shoulders... most ships start sporting 2-3 pds+ and some adfc's.  What
then happens is that you need to put a lot of salvo's on target in 1 turn to
actually damage something!

2. SML fleets need to have roughly (Ships payload mass I'm talking here)
        30%+ ships mass in SML's to force opponent movement (or make him
sweat)
        50%+ ships mass to inflict damage on a well designed pds/adfc
force This is also the point where you have a chance of vaporizing big ships
with SML fire and might actually have SML's contribute to your win. However
this is roughly were the FSE are sitting And this seems to be a crappy design
point. You don't quite have the SML firepower to plunk down on a turn by turn
basis to really destroy enough enemy ships that your remaining beam armament
will
             let you finish them off ... you've got to fight 2-3 rounds
then run when you're out of missles unless you got really lucky.
        70%+ ships mass in SML's.  Plus you need a lot of SML launch
capabilty At this point you can be a terror. You can and should be able to
Wack several opponents ships in 1 turn, Even if they're well
             built/defended.  However, you MUST destory the majority of
his fleet by the time you're out of missles or you're dog meat!
 What
does this mean

		[ Yup... ask that cock Jason kid... he had like 3 kenedy

                   cruisers (4 SML's + 2 rounds fire nothing else though
), a
                   couple of Waldberg-M's and I think 2 frigates or
something like that. He was fighting an NSL force that had a BDN, 2 CE's, 2
CL's, a couple FF's and a DD or two. Both
                   CL's had -1 class-2 for +2 pds.  I think he vaporized

the BDN, one of the CE's, and an FF or two, hurt the DD and both CL's. However
I still managed to vaporize his entire

fleet... he was out of missles, and all he had really was a
                   couple of class-2 and class-1 beams.  I had armored
ships
                   with probably 2-3*'s his beam fire power still.  He
didn't realize that he didn't quite inflict enough damage in the 2 turns of
intense fire... And in those 2 turns I watched The BDN vaporized in 1 turn, a
CE the next along with a couple o' FF's and DD's! It was pretty nuts. But I
was a Stuborn SOB... and yup We agreed the fight would be till a commander
decided to retreat ( 50% pt level) which by all rights I should have... I just
decided my pissed off force realized that I still had more FP and I'd fight my
Way through them. Turns out doing that I wasted his FF's and started hurting
his missle cruisers and there really wasn't much he could do about it. I think
1 missle curser and a couple of the Waldberg's survived but that was it. All
told and done I still had more points in ships left then he did.]

The above... Yup that seems to happen an awful lot at the 50% <
level...
infact usually its worse... they didn't do anywhere enough damage in the

SML fight turns to warrent the mass that they invested in the SML payload. And
yes when you're going with straight missle fleets and your

opponent knows it and puts on a lot of PDS... you'll end up wasting a lot of
SML's just to take down 1 or two ships.

[ we have some fleets of large ships with nothing but pulse torps,
screen-1, slow, armor, strong hull, class-1's, pds, and adfc.  Most of
the ships have 6+ pds and lots o'class-1's.]  You get a couple of ships
like this in close formation and you can kiss your SML fleet good
bye....
They can't really hurt a lot of adfc pds protected ships.]

3. Speed can just about completely eliminate the threat of SML's. If your
opponent is traveling fast enough... you're pretty screwed.... you usually
will end up wasting your SML's trying to hit something, or they expload in
your racks because you were waiting too long for a good shot.

So what does this all mean....

1. Get rid of Banzi Jammers.. they're lame and not in the spirit of the

rules. 2. Let SML's pick their target 3. Know still that fighters seem to be a
better weapon then SML's
........
4. SML's are big SHOCK weapons... Waste a couple ships in a round or two then
    whoops.... the outnumbered beam/pulse torp ships start kicking the
stuffing
    out of a lot of lamely armed/defended ships.

Just some thoughts and Flames to get the fires burning.......;)

Chuck

P.S.: Actually I'm really interested in seeing how NOAM can get SML's to work
around Banzai Jammers and win. Hell I'm really interested to see
someone win with the FSE on a consistant or majority basis (like 3+/6
battles)... I can't seem to win very much with FSE... only with my own missle
fleets and even then its like a crap shoot.

P.S.2: I admit it really sucks to watch a large chunk of your fleet,
especially the big capital ships go BOOM! in 1 friggin turn. Its really

demoralizing... but when you start to realize that if they've got enough

missles to do that... they don't have enough beam fire power to finish you off
usually. By then you're mopping the floor against large fresh
ships with weak hulls usually that have corvete/frigate fire power.  So
what if you're outnumbered and they've got a lot of big ships left... they
usually end up dying pretty quickly and don't really do all that much to your
ships.