> John Leary wrote:
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
but as a
> > deterrent from getting too close to a planet, fine. You wouldn't
What about gun mines...
assuming you can make the mines stealthy enough... and use some sort of
passive sensor system to detect ships...when a ship comes with in gun range
the mine goes active and begins firing...this also gives the mine an
engagement range, thus requiring less mines
> Nothing personel here, I JUST HAVE AN INTENSE DISLIKE FOR
How long engagement envelope does the mines have? How good stealth can you
equip them with - ie, can you make them difficult to detect at ranges
longer than their own engagement range? If so, you might be able to hide them.
But you miss the main point with mines: they're there not as much to harm
the enemy as to make him go somewhere else - ie, either where your heavy
guns are waiting for him, or where your vulnerable units aren't :-)
> 2) If you can hide a mine in space, the same tech that hides the
Except, perhaps, that the ship has more active emissions than the mine -
especially if it is trying to maneuver...
> 3) Mines in orbit around a planet can cause a lot of bad PR when
Not if they don't have warheads. These FTL mines cause damage by jumping
into hyper, not by a bomb - and if you program them to engage targets in
a certain size bracket (or have IFF gear on your planet <g>) they'll simply
burn up when they fall out of orbit. I doubt they'll accidentally drift
away from the planet :-/
> 4) Consider the amount of mass that would have to go into a mine-
Again, how long engagment range does the mine have? I see no real point in
surrounding an entire star system with a mine shell (...the enemy might jump
to a point inside the mines, depending on your background...) but as a
deterrent from getting too close to a planet, fine. You wouldn't need that
many either, I think - a couple of hundred, provided they can damage
ships far enough away... and don't tell me the mines cost more than ten
superdreadnoughts each <g>
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> > 1) Lets face it, where/how do you hide a mine in space?
Oerjan, I will try to address some of the points you have brought up, but the
bottom line from a personal point of view is 'MINES IN SPACE
ARE SILLY... Now back to a somewhat more rational discussion.
Presumptions on the construction of a mine: 1) The mine has an active power
source. 2) The mine has one mass or close to it. 3) The mine by its very
nature does not have standard sensors or IFF, some type of passive sensor
(Mass detector) is the sensor of choice for the mine.
POINT 1) The mine must have an active power source or it would freeze in
space. This means the stealth aspect becomes meaningless, even if the mine
were totally (normal active) sensor invisable the mine would light up like a
candle in the dark on a IR sensor. POINT 2) You might be able to make an
argument against this but I like it. Point 3) Standard or advanced sensors and
IFF will not be found on a mine because they are active devices which would
pinpoint the location of the mine instantly.
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
(Needless to say the mine will not survive to jump if facing
a warship.) JTL
XXXXXXXXX
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
XXXXXXXXXX If the enemy jumped into the system, they have jumped into a
gravity well and will suffer accordingly. I realize that I did not bother to
compute the number of mines necessary to surround a planet with mines, I
didn't have that much interest. To deter an attacking force with a planetary
minefield you must set the outer limit of the mines beyond the range of the
enemy fleets
weapons. In FT this is a minimum of 54", but lets say 60" for fun.
The minefield would have to be at least 10 rows deep, and a minumum
of of 6" between mines. The minefield now stretches from 30" to 90"
above the planets surface, and if one does Pie*D for each ring the
number of mines cn be determined. Or calculate the surface area
of all mine shells and divide by the surface area of a single mine area to
determine the total number of mines. (No way I am going to do this.)
Minefields in space simply have to many holes in both theory and practice (Yes
the pun was intended.) for them to be of any value. (Other than as a game
device to play navy.)
This may come across more harshly than intended, if so, I am sorry.
Bye for now,
> John Leary <realjtl@sj.bigger.net> wrote:
> Oerjan,
Glad this is a "personal view", otherwise this could get dicey...:)
> POINT 1)
Very false assumption. What type of "active power" source are you talking
about? And what do you mean freeze in space? There are satillites in long
orbits right now that are powerd down
and emit no radiation. They are back up Command/Control/Communication
satillites. You can insulate against the cold/heat, (depends on
whether your in the sunlight or shadow part of the orbit) and just a
trickle of power, (Solar cells, or Radio-stope generated) would be
more than enough to keep the systems on standbye, and preform self
checks. If it is Radar/Sensor stealthed, you won't see it till your
"on-top" of it, by which point it is too late.
> POINT 2)
According to FT, the entire system, including 3 mines is Mass 3, so it is more
like the mines are.75 mass or less, but round up. So your size is, i'd think,
relative to a fighter, (6 mass for 6 ea. plus bay) Still, a mine is less,
"seeable", No active Drive, No active Sensors. A hole in space. Real tough to
sort out, unless you're activly looking for it, probaly with a dedicated
sensor, ie: Mine Sweeper system.
> Point 3)
On this I have no argument. But, I'd assume, (military doctrine would call for
it in this type of mine warfare anyway) you'd have a dedicated set of "Master"
mines. These would mass the same, but would have no "attack" capability.
Theyre job would be to be sensor platforms. Sense a target? Interrogate IFF,
(burst transmission), No IFF reply? Arm nearby mines, Go to Active sensor and
scan target, Get
blasted? Your datalink just fell off-line, mines auto engage. Scan
matches "enemy" profile? See above. Any mine patterns around a planet would
probably rely on the Planetary defense sattilites, or a mine layer in orbit
for additional sensor support.
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:<
I'd agree with the FTL mine being not possible accoding to the books rules, it
looks that way to me too. But again, it depends on "your" background. The cost
would be prohibitive in my opinion, plus the
spectere of FTL fighter would rear it's head. (Hmmm, X-Wings and TIE
fighters anyone?:)
Most "Sci-Fi" type mines fall into 2 catigories:
Energy mines, or dormant missles. Energy projecting mines are usually
represented by the idea of a self consuming reaction that gives you a "burst"
similar to an energy projector. Ususaly, because these kind destroy themselves
you get to put a heavier "punch" beam weapon on them than they could normaly
carry. (Such as, instead of a "C" battery, FT mines act as "B" batteries)
Dormant missle mines, are missles, which when the target is engaged, sprint
towards the target seeking to hit it and detonate before the target can evade.
FT rules for mines actually seem to use both methods.
> If the enemy jumped into the system, they have jumped into
Jumping in to a "system" is a lot diffrent than jumping too close to a planet.
Jumping Into the system is how you travel, unless I missed somthing and we are
talking having to have real weak gravity gradiant. In which case we have
fleets dropping out of Jump outside
the Helio-pause, and taking months to years to get near enough to a
planet to fight
> snip about number of mines required<
You are of cousre very right, if we want a solid shell of mines around the
entire planet. We don't. We just want to ensure the enemy can't slide up
behind the planet while his diversionary attack is holding our attention. Or
maybe we just want a little more fire power on our flank. The military use of
mines is realy an art, not a science.
> Minefields in space simply have to many holes in both theory
See above, they can be both tacticaly, and stratigicaly useful if placed and
played right.
> This may come across more harshly than intended, if so, I am sorry.
I'll aplogize too, as I tend to lecture on weapons. My only defense is it
comes with the job.:)
> Bye for now,
Randy "Creative Financing is the key to any venture. Right John?" R. Hood
(Ret.)
I would add that current doctrine for the use of mines in, like, the US
military is that you don't just sow them some place and forget about them.
They are used as part of an active defense of an area, and any obstacle should
be covered with fire for it to be effective.
Mines should be sown in conjunction with other defending forces already in the
area. The enemy has to take time to either slow down and negotiate the
minefield under observation and fire by the defenders, or, bypass to a
different avenue of approach that the defense wants the attacker to take for
whatever reason.
> campbelr@dns.kunsan.af.mil wrote:
Randy, At this time of my life I am testing solar arrays for a
living. When I said 'active power source' I refered to either
a nuke power source or solar/battery power. Both of these are used
to maintain a temperature so high above space background that the candel
statement is basicly correct. (Persuming one is looking for it.) FT does not
explain 'gravity well' any more than it states
'scale', sun/planet take your pick. (Well perhaps the Sun was
chosen for dramatic effect.) Don't get me wrong, if someone hands me a
minefield I will use it. (Thusfar I have been disgustingly successful in the
use
of mines.) It's just that I will never buy them if I have a
choice.
Sometime it is just not a good idea to inject too much reality into the game,
just take it the way it is and go from there. (I must say that I do like a
little verbal fencing match from time to time, thanks.)
Bye for now,
> campbelr@dns.kunsan.af.mil wrote:
> Very false assumption. What type of "active power" source are you
Sorry, forgot to address this point in the last message.
Satillites go thru a constant cycle of hot and cold. Charge and discharge on
the batteries, to maintain a reasonably low temperature swing during the
cycles. Even on standby the satillite does this, the transmitters may not be
powered but low drain recievers are always on to take commands. If the
batteries get drained, its dead! In space you cannot insulate against cold,
all you can do is reduce the rate of heat loss. I guess the point here is that
you can never hide the mine thermally if it has an internal heat source.
Bye for now,
...Snip...JTL ( a large amount of text removed.)
> What about gun mines...
Chris, My prior messages have assumed a 12' spacing between mines. In modern
terms the passive sensor concept can be equated to
using a search radar to target your anti-aircraft missiles rather
than a dedicated target radar. Stated simply, not a good idea.
Remember, the captain signed the ship out, and if he losses it the cost will
come out of his pay.
Bye for now,
JOHN, DUDE!
Trim your replies a bit, man! It takes fragging forever to get to
the part which you wrote, meaning all the previous non-relevant
stuff had to be read in its entirety all over again. Gah...
[massive amounts of non-relevant earlier text msgs sliced w/extreme
prejudice]
> > POINT 1)
For an example you can use the TDRSS ("tee-dress") satellites (Tracking
and Data Relay Satellite System). There are 3 currently in active operational
mode,
and 2-3 others which are shut down to a 'stand-by' mode, minimal power,
to be
used as back-ups in case any of the primary 3 fail. I haven't gotten
around to measuring their radiation output lately, so can't tell you those
numbers. ;-)
> You can insulate against the cold/heat, (depends on
[a LOT more irrelevant material sliced/diced from here]
> At this time of my life I am testing solar arrays for a
Are the solar arrays you're testing for ground systems or
satellites/spacecraft? (asking out of curiousity, mainly)
Assuming your systems require it, you *can* surround them cryogen to keep
their temperatures down (the NICMOS camera on the Hubble is encased in a solid
block of nitrogen). That'll help against your IR detectors. That, and the
background
stars. ;-)
> Sometime it is just not a good idea to inject too much reality
I agree there's a point when reality becomes unplayable, but I think you can
get pretty durn close.
Mk
Mk, For use way up there!
I will try to be more brief.
I fear the hubble is not a cheap, throw away device like a mine, which of
necessity would be built in the tens or hundreds of thousands, at the least
possible cost.
Bye for now,