The greetings of the Holidays to you all and I come before you with a plea for
help.
Christmas has been berry, berry good to me and thus I am able to start on a
Full Thrust project much sooner than I anticipated.
I got into the FT addiction about a year ago and quickly purchased all
available books and started collecting my own figs. Chiefly, I used B5, Task
Force, and other miscellanous figs. (a kind friend is supplying my addiction
with a dose of Superiors presently).
However, I've gamed with various folk and they, along with my own regular
gaming group have commented on the lack of canon vessels in my collection.
I've pored over the books and read through the brief descriptions of doctrine
and concept in the FB's as wells. Here's my request (sorry for the long
intro).
I plan to aquire a set of each of the principle human fleets represented by
FB#1. The FSE, NAC, ESU, and the NSL. Could the 'list suggest an Order of
Battle for a typical task force of say 15 to 20 ships that woudl represent the
appropriate mix of weapons and ships to typify each of the afforementioned
spacial nations? SInce, plan to play a lot of FT this year, this seems to be
the best way to approach this.
Also, any comments, suggestions or notes on doctrine, fleet tactics etc from
the list would be welcome. Part of the fun of the game is to attempt to
succeed while following the concepts of the nation that your're representing
on the gametable.
(Hopefully, Kieran will be gentle with me on this order)
Please feel free to send me a reply of list if you like.
Thanks in advance
On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 12:18:30 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com> writes:
> Pat Connaughton wrote:
Okay, I'm extremely green - tell me how this works, please?
> What I run for a fleet is a Super Dreadnoughts a few BBs a couple of
Hmmm, Maybe the original use of such ships wasn't in fleet actions at all just
because of this. Didn't Light Cruisers in WW1 and WW2 tend to stay far away
from "Big Bad BB's" because of that reason? Maybe Light Cruisers should be
used as per past historical actions (IIRC) in small
actions and screening prior to heavies duke-ing it out? Wish I was more
knowledgable about historical naval practices...
They
> are basically disabled after one exchange of fire and are useless
I did not understand the example in FT/2nd that shows "Carriers" having
"C" class guns... Wouldn't it be better to have larger guns "BB" types
for that and stick to PDAF/ADAF weaponry plus screens?
> For weapons I usually have a balance of PT and regular beam batteries.
Well, my first and only FT experience has made me *very* missile conscious...
> For PD most of my ships heavy cruiser or bigger carry 3+ PD and an
Sound like sound doctrine to my unsophisticated mind. <snip>
> I don't have much experience with the "official" fleets but here's
Good stuff here, please keep it going.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:37:18 +1100 "Alan and Carmel Brain"
> <aebrain@dynamite.com.au> writes:
Are heavy cruisers in this example part of the 50% Capital ships? Or is this
50% by "points" Can you tell i am extremely new at this? 8^(
> ESU
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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If it could only be.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
On Sun, 24 Dec 2000 22:22:30 -0600 "thurvin" <thurvin@netzero.net>
writes:
> To the day, the only battles fought on the 4' x 6' sheets of
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On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 10:37:00 -0800 Mark Reindl <mreindl@pacbell.net>
writes: <snip>
> Well, it really depends on what you think is appropriate :). I've
Great comments! Have you seen anyone run "BC plus" type fleets against
"Light" heavy fleets (Gee almost sounds like WRG terminology - Light
Heavies)? What were the results? <snip>
> When the guys in my group first started playing FT, one of the things
Human nature, it's a constant...
> Hope that helps,
Can't speak for Pat but it has helped me start thinking about fleets and
tactics so Thanks!
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
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On Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:19:02 -0600 "Pat Connaughton"
> <patconnaughton@earthlink.net> writes:
<snip>
> I plan to aquire a set of each of the principle human fleets
<snip>
> Pat Connaughton
Pat, given the 'naval' atmosphere of the game and my complete inability to do
anything quite by "the regs" (Inborn genetic thing) I would
suggest that your plan has merit (quite a bit) but in general I would
suggest that given the naval 'prejudice' <grin> and the purpose of the fleet
being to be very general purpose you should consider WW2 or modern naval task
forces (SAG's etc.) for possible force structures.
A major capitol ship or two, specialist and possibly general purpose
"Cruisers" to provide inner ring forces plus significant outer ring forces.
A bastardized WW2 model would be a major Task Force of 2 CV's, possibly 2
CVL's, 2-4 CA's, 4-6 CL and CLAA types, and 6-8 DD types.
Or a CV-less force of 4-5 BB's, 3-5 CA's, 3-5 CL/CLAA's and at least 8
DD's.
But a lot depends on what kind of scenarios you plan to run with these forces.
Planetary assault? Going to need the appropriate LHA, LSD and LST equivalents
plus significant escorts (Running BB's with these babies seems a tad
unusual...) And I have no idea if planetary bombardment is
aa consideration in the FT environment - much less what kind of
ships/weapons would be used... Economic Denial Raid? Asteroid Fighter
Base neutralization? Death Star destruction assault? Take (Beth's?) scenario
off the web and instead of one force trying to kill the UN representative,
imagine what would be needed to kidnap a high
muckety-muck for nefarious purposes...
A lot depends on your interpretation of the nations and their
ethics/goals (yes, I know canon - there are no "good" guys) as to what
kinds of ships and weaponry would be 'right' for each nation. Plus all the
optional possibilities (Nova Gun anyone?)
Or you can take the idea that a task force might have taken "Game wise"
optimum weaponry for those one on one points games and/or tournaments.
But I am enjoying the few posts so far on this thread. Beams have no
nationality.
I am soaking it all up since I have so little rules specific knowledge myself.
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
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From: "Dean Gundberg" <Dean.Gundberg@noridian.com>
To: "GZG List" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: St Jon - Exposed!
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 16:10:20 -0600
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For those of us who have never had a chance to meet Mr.Jon Tuffley in person,
or if you have ever wondered what a GZG booth looks like at a UK convention, I
just ran across some pictures of Bifrost 2000 on the web which has just those
shots.
http://www.sealteamsix.com/tonsha/bif00_5.html
These pictures are from Tonsha who does the scratch-built FT minis out
of balsa wood, cereal boxes and dried vegetables.
Enjoy, Dean Gundberg
Starship Combat News The latest information on Space Games and Miniatures
http://star_ranger.homestead.com/
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From: "bif smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk>
To: "full thrust" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE-Ship names
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:15:45 -0000
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I know you said reply off list, but I thought I`d share these titles by ian
m. banks (and just from memory)-
consider phlebas the player of games use of weapons the state of the art
excession (I think?) Probably more in the culture series, but memory not work
very well today.
BIF "yorkshire born,yorkshire bred, strong in arms, thick in head"
Glenn M Wilson wrote in a couple different posts:
In reply to Alan Brain:
> A good, balanced fleet could consist of:
50% by points.
> ESU
Should be Konstantin Super Carrier (the Komarov is the SDN)
> 5 Heavy Cruisers whose name I also forget
Gorshkov or Voroshilev.
> 2 Beijing-Bs (Escort Cruisers with ADAFs)
This might be a bit difficult, since there are no models for the Krivak
DDs - in the FT universe they were replaced "long ago" by the Warsaw
class :-/ I'd get a mix of Warsaws and Volgas for variety, though.
> 2 Nanuchkas
Same model as the normal Vandenburg.
In reply to Jaime Tiampo:
> Can't help you too much there. I play with ships that I've created
In the cinematic (normal FT2) movement system, ships always move in the
direction the model is facing (like Star Trek) and it takes time to turn
around. In Vector ships can move in directions other than the one they're
facing (like B5 fighters, or Star Wars TIE fighters at least in episode 4) and
any ship can turn to any facing pretty much instantly, but changing the ship's
*course* takes considerably longer. This
difference means that high/low thrust ratings and wide/narrow fire arcs
vary quite a lot in usefulness between the two movement systems.
> What I run for a fleet is a Super Dreadnoughts a few BBs a couple of
Which makes the above-mentioned fleet composition sound a bit odd -
destroyers are generally larger than frigates but smaller than heavy cruisers,
yet Jaime uses a bunch of destroyers?
> Hmmm, Maybe the original use of such ships wasn't in fleet actions
They got quite close to them during torpedo attacks...
> I did not understand the example in FT/2nd that shows "Carriers"
It is *extremely* annoying to have completely unarmed carriers if the enemy
slips some light ships past the carriers' escorts. If you can prevent him from
doing that, then you can safely have carriers devoid of offensive armament; if
you can't, you'll most likely find a couple of small batteries quite useful.
> I don't use many missiles purely because I find it unbalances the
...and the enemy doesn't use proper anti-missile tactics, that is.
> As for personal feelings, I'd rather expend lots of MT missiles and
Suggests that Jaime plays on a fixed-edge table or uses some sort of
vector movement for the missiles. If you play on a floating ("unlimited")
table with the MT missile rules published in MT (rather
than one of the various house-rule FB conversions for MT missiles), his
opponents would be able to force him into close beam ranges to give the
missiles any chance of hitting simply by turning away. One of my
opponents thought that massed MT missiles were a sure-fire way of
winning... until my beam-armed fleet crushed his missile boats in four
consecutive battles without my losing a single ship :-/
> Well, my first and only FT experience has made me *very* missile
Your maneuvers *were* rather predictable :-/
Regards,
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:46:33 +0100 "Oerjan Ohlson"
> <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> writes:
<snip>
> Well, my first and only FT experience has made me *very* missile
You were there? Opponent or Kravak, (I know you weren't the "young" ernest
ensign type or Mr."teleporter" so if you were there you must have been playing
or observing.)
Or are you just concluding that from earlier statements?
And I am not sure what wouldn't have been predictable given my inexperience.
8^)
> Regards,
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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Subject: Re: Ship Names
Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:47:25 -0800
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From: Mark Reindl (who sent HTML mail)
> Any ideas for ship names for a Kra'vak fleet? Anything with an
There is a list of KV syllables, or phonemes, or something, which was started
before FB2 but was IIRC revised afterwards. You could use that.
My KV clan, the Ba'Das, has named their main capital ship the
_Ba'Das_. May not show much originality but they're noted more for
aggressiveness than creativity.
On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:03:04 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com> writes: Good question, in my first (only) game I
would assume we used cinematic. Pat, what did we use?
> Do you use cinimatic or vector? I find that splitting your fleet up is
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:46:30 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com> writes:
> Glenn M Wilson wrote:
Heck not the last! I have been playing with spaceship deigns before High
Guard! 8^)
I meant how the ships were compromised for vector and cinematic and what that
means in design terms? How does this compromise make them less
useful for the one and/or the other mode?
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:46:30 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com> writes:
> Glenn M Wilson wrote:
<snip>
> Well, my first and only FT experience has made me *very* missile
No Fighters, no ADAF IIRC; only PDA. And only one or two on my cruisers, IIRC.
Not sure about the capital ships the kids had...
> [quoted text omitted]
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
________________________________________________________________
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:46:30 -0800 Jaime Tiampo
<fugu@spikyfishthing.com> writes:
> Glenn M Wilson wrote:
<snip>
> >What I run for a fleet is a Super Dreadnoughts a few BBs a couple
Well, I only have FT/2nd right now...
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
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From - Wed Jan 03 11:05:24 2001
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From: "Andrew Martin" <Al.Bri@xtra.co.nz>
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Subject: Re: ADS
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:42:18 +1300
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Page 19 quoted: ADS vehicles MAY fire at ground targets if they do NOT
currently have their sensors active for defence use; in this case they may
engage with direct fire during their own activation turn as for any normal
ground vehicle.
So that leads to the following table:
Sensors? Can fire in own activation?
Active No firing!
Inactive May fire.
I may have said it the other way around.
Do you play in cm's, have a large table, or use the floor (Get it out of
the gutter, guys - I *Know* what some of you are thinking... Just
thought I'd head that off...)?
Gracias, Glenn/Triphibious
You don't have to be French to be a 'frog', or even human!
Nektons - Real Marines!
Starguard, Dirtside 2, Full Thrust, Ratner's Space Marines, Stellar
Conflicts and Uprisings, and Full Thrust/2nd. Resistance is everything!
On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 10:59:59 +1100 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
G'day Glenn,
> Do you play in cm's, have a large table,
We use a full sized tennis table and the floating map idea. If players
happen to fly off both sides/ends (so we can't slide the mat to keep
everybody on the board) but aren't disengaging then their position gets marked
on a gridmap until they come back on.
> (Get it out of the gutter, guys - I *Know*
After the whole dremel tool fiasco I'd advise not to try and head anything off
as you just stir them up and they cane you for your efforts;)
Cheers
Beth
On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:29:45 +1100 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
"Switched" was bad enough as a child - i'll pass on the cane thing...
<shudder>
> Cheers
Well, they haven't made any off color remarks about your responding to a
thread 'soliciting' [but that may be an American/English/Aussie
non-translation thing...] which i will charitably assign to gentlemanly
behavior.
On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:29:45 +1100 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
That sounds good - how often does that occur? And if the table
'extends' forever what's to keep a bloodthirsty gamer from going 'for the
jugular'
other then self-preservation (and we have touched on the short term
styles most space/naval wargamers play with already in various threads
recently.)
Playing 'people wise' (or 'ship wise' for the naval types) seems to not
be a positively reinforced value in war games/war game circles. Once in
a pseudo-historical Napoleonic scenario in Espana (imagine a tilde there
okay?) during the Peninsula phase I had three SMALL Spanish local militia (and
some were armed with carbines) plus a small unit of militia lancers
trying to get armory emptied while an equal number of French/Bavarian
regulars (foot and Cav) came across a small river (Hussars (?) found crossings
first turn and Infantry found two fords by end of turn two) and
the scenario was appropriately titled - "Surrender, Flee or Die!" As
the Alcalde (my mother would have been proud <grin>) I refused to rally (to
it's destruction) one battalion letting it rout off the board in rough brush
terrain and voluntarily routed a second battalion off the board rather then
let its rallied remanent armed with carbines face (untouched)
french line with muskets and bayonets - I was promptly wrote up in the
newsletter (by explicit incident not name) as an example of how bad rules
allowed people to flee 'without penalty' in a game. The campaign I was a guest
in for that scenario had that province 'pacified' by the French the rest of
the game year so it wasn't quite the 'freebie' it was made out to be IMO. But
it was a 'people' decision I felt that a 1808 'born in the
village' [per the scenario] Alcalde (Mayor to non-Hispanics) might have
legitimately made in that scenario - as it was only 1/3 of the supplies
clearly got off the board and another third escaped due to die roll bonuses as
the pursuing cav chased the militia lancers overlong. And while the militia
was unavailable that game year they were alive to come back next year.
I also got flack when as a guest commander of French marines and North
African (Algerian) troops in a Franco-Prussian campaign (again as a
guest commander) when I saw a French force attack across a river against a
superior Prussian and Bavarian force I held the village until all
non-surrounded French troops were off the board then (facing multiple
battalions to my one and the Krupps guns moving up) (they started the game in
medium range of the entire board, IIRC) plus infantry from the crushed right
flank moving past the mopping up of the French martyrs (and
they say followers of Islam are suicidal - not that day!) I elected to
again voluntarily rout my battered but marginally intact battalion of
Algerians off the board (regular move would have resulted in multiple short
range fire in to my flank as I column moved.) Less historical in
some people's minds I am sure but the French C-in-C had stated we could
not win this game - we had to delay and withdraw intact (and promptly
the
French Right wing 'counterattacked' the advancing Prussian forces -
crossing the river to meet them!) THAT was good military sense??!! Maybe but I
would do it again (oh, I had the turn prior moved off another Algerian
battalion off the board intact so it's not like I left the French forces
completely uncovered.) If I had been able I would have had the intact force in
the village but due to the troops positions in relation to each other and the
only road 'out' it would have taken two turns under fire to effect the switch
of battalions. And I chose not to risk in for a battle already disastrously
lost by my French 'masters.' No regrets.
G'day Glenn,
> That sounds good - how often does that occur?
Well we float the table at least once ever game (its usually my fault...
"there she goes again" being a comon comment). However, as for having two
forces fly too far off either end and so having to use grid paper, that's
on happened a handful of times (I'd say less than 1- 5% of the games).
> And if the table 'extends' forever what's to keep
Well we play the "strike the colours" rule (though more as a morale "we're not
hanging around in the middle of all this" rather than a "we surrender"
kind of thing) and critical hits, so after about 3-4 rounds of combat
its pretty clear who should give up and go home. In campaign games where
there's an extra incentive no to die, we've seen games where people fly in see
what the other guy's got (for future reference) and then hightailed it out of
there without a shot ever being fired. There was also a
proliferation of "how can we cripple/capture ship without destroying it"
ideas.
Cheers
Beth
On Tue, 02 Jan 2001 21:39:04 EST, Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
> Playing 'people wise' (or 'ship wise' for the naval types) seems to not
I liked what you were saying about your historical games. I often play to a
"people wise" method. I know that after we play our scenarios we sit back and
analyse who REALLY won. Often it's, "Well, you didn't make the scenario
objectives. But I think you probably did the right thing preserving your
force." or something like that.
I had a very interesting game with a friend who is writing a novel. It's an
alternate American Civil War novel, where the war takes place 10 years
earlier. We ran a scenario from his book, using the GDW "Soldier's Companion"
rules and stats from about the time of the Mexican-American War. We
didn't
play competitively, but co-operatively. We both played both sides. We
discussed general strategies, and then discussed what each side would do per
turn for what was best for them. No surprises, of course, but it was for a
novel. (The funniest part was when a main character in the novel had his
figure wounded. My friend looked at me and said, "I wanted him wounded in the
battle! I guess this is where it happens...") There are a number of
co-operative board games out now. It seems to be a trend. I have yet to
play a
co-operative SG2 or FT game (not sure FT would work with it, but SG2
could).
G'day Allan,
> I have yet to play a co-operative SG2
Its how we teach out kids (mostly Lachy as Janneke is still a bit young
concentration span wise) to play any wargame. After the first few games Lachy
starts to want to do things with less talking but every now and again he still
likes to have a game where we talk things through more. GZGwise, it works
really well for SG and DS and its OK for FT so long as the experienced players
have written their orders before we start discussing
options and ideas with him. Its been interesting seeing which ideas took
him a while to pick up (usually things to do with command and control and
using cover) and what came naturally (converged fire, grand batteries, fire
lanes). He's co-opting his sister into games on the lounge room floor
now its school holidays... Lachy's version of SG troopers (his SG squads vs
Janneke's masses of bugs, snakes and worms) may not be completely true to the
GZG vision, but the influences are very obvious;)
Cheers
Beth
On Wed, 03 Jan 2001 13:59:51 +1100 Beth Fulton
> <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:
You saw my earlier post about 'saving survivors' for the Napoleonic Spanish
and Algerian Turcos I am sure. If it didn't work they wouldn't say anything,
me thinks.
However, as for having
> two
Seems easier to use grid paper then buy another table for a 'standby spare'
IMO. <grin>
> >And if the table 'extends' forever what's to keep
Ooooh, rational long term planning. I have got to find a way for the agency to
send me for a couple of weeks of 'work' to Tasmania... I don't suppose you and
Derek can find any links from Tasmania to Singapore,
Burma (Sorry DOS - Department of State doesn't let us call it Manmade,)
Malaysia, or the Philippines that would justify the agency sending me TRY for
a few weeks? Well, it's an idea. <grin>
Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca> worte:
<snip>
> There are a number of
Alan,
What are some these co-operative games?
Enjoy,
> On Wed, 03 January 2001, Tom Granvold wrote:
> Alan,
See my message to Da Beast! He mentioned "Lord of the Rings", which is getting
some very good reviews. Another new one is "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". See the
other message for some more.
There's another one that is eluding my memory... I may have to go looking
through my stuff. I think it might be a Cheapass Game.
[quoted original message omitted]
G'day Glenn,
> Ooooh, rational long term planning.
Well as one of the major opiate growing sites in the world we are rated as a
drug risk at least;) If that doesn't work there's plenty of goofy jokes about
what threats 2 headed (inbred) Tasmanians pose to the depth of the gene pool;)
> I don't suppose you and Derek can find
Well I wouldn't hold your breath, but as an extreme possibility there is a
major centre of marine research (and modelling) now based in Malaysia.... I
still wouldn't hold your breath;)
On the flip side Derek and I plan to visit the US in a few years time, so you
never know;)
Cheers
Beth
From: "Beth Fulton" <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
> Well as one of the major opiate growing sites in the world we are
Beth, you really should have inserted the owrd "legal" before "major"