> devans@uneb.edu wrote:
> ***
But,
> you could say the same for Risk. And, I have. ;->=
Or Uncle Wiggly! :-P
> Enough [OT], on with the topic!
Agreed!
> ***
Well, the game I envisioned would only take place on the BR25 game board, so
nothing outside of the asteroid belt is "on board." I suppose you could have
some ships, even using Newtonian physics, leave the board, but it makes the
game much more complex and doesn't get you much else.
> I've looked at the board for sometime now, trying to envision how the
Restricting movement on the between orbit paths sounds like a good idea. I
don't have my BR25 game with me at present, but I've already made a note to
myself to take a look at that possibility. It isn't that much more complex and
might add another interesting level of play.
> Gradation between thrusts for movement isn't something I'd considered,
The idea I had was tat the ships were moving using Newtonian physics. As such,
the ships that possess the higher thrust (Pronounced "acceleration.") could
get wherever they were going much more quickly than the lower thrust ships. Of
course, if you are using Cinematic movement rules, I have no idea how a
gravitic drive would effect travel times, so feel free to choose the one that
seems right to you.
> ***
I like the intercept rules. Perhaps a quick comparison of thrust could be used
to see if an intercept is possible. Just off the top of my head, have each
fleet roll a number of dice (d6) equal to the lowest thrust factor in the
fleet. You can break up fleets at this point and let the slower ships fall
behind if you so choose. The fleet which rolls the most 5s and 6s gets to
choose if the intercept occurs. Resolve ties by the fleet with the most 6s. If
still tied, the intercept does not occur. Of course, two fleets in deep space
who both want to engage can feel free to do so.
> ***
Strategic mining could be handled by a simple roll of the dice. Depending on
the concentration of the mine field, throw so many dice for the fleet, or for
each ship if they decide to break formation, and mines hit on a 6.
> ***
except for
> landings, which would allow the defenders to roll for hits for one
I'd like to keep the ground stuff rather simple. I see this more as a space
game with the idea being to bring meaning to the space battles being fought.
But having a more complex ground combat system isn't a bad idea, it's just a
different game from the one I'm proposing. It would also make the game last
MUCH longer. I'm envisioning small fleets fighting with a victory condition
that can be achieved
within 8-12 hours of play, i.e. within one day.
I'd love to be able to play in a much longer campaign game that lasted for
months of afternoon and weekend battles, but I'm having enough trouble finding
one person to play Full Thrust for a few hours.
In a message dated 4/1/99 12:53:46 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> atomicat@geocities.com writes:
> > I've looked at the board for sometime now, trying to envision how
> Restricting movement on the between orbit paths sounds like a good
> Gradation between thrusts for movement isn't something I'd
> The idea I had was that the ships were moving using Newtonian physics.
As such,
> the ships that possess the higher thrust (Pronounced "acceleration.")
could get
> wherever they were going much more quickly than the lower thrust ships.
Of
> course, if you are using Cinematic movement rules, I have no idea how a
gravitic
> drive would effect travel times, so feel free to choose the one that
Having just purchased the game (again, I can't belive I got rid of it the
first time) from EBay, and for the same purpose, hope you don't mind if I
chime in here..
I was figuring on the ships being unable to do constant accelleration, so your
fleet speed, (using the lowest thrust in the fleet) determined the "orbital
track) you could take. Higher thrusts could take a more direct orbit, while
low thrusts had to take more "Homann" type orbits to reach thier target
planet.
If your using the gravitic drives, then you should be pretty much able to pick
and choose a path.
I'd also considered adding some rules for detection and stealth. It might be
possible for the various planets to know your coming, or for you to hide as
you come in. I'd also considered adding an ability to have a "passing" fight
if two fleets were traveling through the same circle along the path. No actual
stand up fights as the transfer velocity would be too high.
> I like the intercept rules.
As do I. It gives a "reason" to have those high thrust home defense ships:o)
> I'm envisioning small fleets fighting with a victory condition that can
The main reason I bought the game again:o) And I hear you about finding
players.
Randy
> Michael Sarno wrote:
> Well, the game I envisioned would only take place on the BR25 game
If anyone wanted to game fleets traveling around the outer solarsystem, I have
some direct experience in this...(seems a while back, I was trying to do a
game-able
"solarsystem map". Because of the enormas size of the solar system, it is not
possible to put all of the planetary orbits on one map, without some
abstraction.
The best
solution I could come up with was: Put everything from the Sun to the Asteroid
belt on one map, and the rest on another map. Both maps being the same size.
The "outer map"
scale would be 1 "inner map" per hex.... :-)
> Donald Hosford wrote:
The "outer map"
> scale would be 1 "inner map" per hex.... :-)
In the game Dark Stars, they have a solar system display with a logarithmic
scale. The hexes in one "ring" of hexagons are
> ShldWulf@aol.com wrote:
> I was figuring on the ships being unable to do constant accelleration,
That's a good idea. I hadn't really thought about anything except a constant
acceleration type of movement. But I like your idea here much better. What do
you propose as the specifics of this rule?
> I'd also considered adding some rules for detection and stealth. It
I like that idea a great deal, but all the ideas I've had on making that
happen require way too much in the game mechanics department and hence
playability suffers greatly. If you have any ideas on this I'd be very
interested. So far, the best idea I've had in this regard is to have counters
on the board that correspond to the fleets and then keep each fleet's ships'
records in a separate pile clearly marked with the same symbol, letter,
number, color, whatever as the fleet's counter on the board. You'd have to
trust the opposing player when his fleets meet in space and he starts to
shuffle papers between fleets, or you'd have to have a referee. It just seems
like a lot of work and you still don't get to have a genuine sneak attack.
> I'd also considered adding an ability to have a "passing" fight
No
> actual stand up fights as the transfer velocity would be too high.
That's not a bad idea. I had thought about having this occur when the roll to
determine intercept is tied.
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Donald Hosford wrote:
Ah, an abstraction...How big was the map?
I don't think I have ever heard of DS....Is it a new game, or an old out of
print one?
> Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
There are currently five copies of this game for auction on eBay. Item
#85152416 and #84753961 will conclude shortly.
> Donald Hosford wrote:
The solar system map took up a bit less than one quarter of
> On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> In the game Dark Stars, they have a solar system display with a
this also has the advantage that one thrust point (ie the ability to climb one
hex out, sorta) gets you further when you're further out: this is true, as the
star's gravity is less at greater distance.
in terms of properly correct physics, it doesn't quite work out (i think
-
it depends just how it was done) but it's better than nothing.
incidentally, the historical boardgame 'kingmaker' (AH, i think) had a
slightly similar scheme: the terrain units were irregularly-shaped,
often with boundaries defined by rivers in nice flat east anglia, the units
were big, so you could march from londond to cambridge in one turn (why anyone
would *want* to go to cambridge is beyond me, of course :-), whereas in
lovely hilly wales, the units were barely bigger than a counter, so it took
ages to get anywhere.
Tom
> On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Michael Sarno wrote:
> ShldWulf@aol.com wrote:
you could put the ship sheets in manilla envelopes and clearly mark which
fleet they're for. you could then give them to the other player so he can be
sure you're not cheating. of course, you then have to be sure he hasn't looked
at the sheets.
> you still don't get to have a genuine sneak attack.
i recall a scheme used in wargaming where a huge matrix of drawers (made from
matchboxes in this case) was used; each tray corresponded to a cell on a map
grid, and counters were placed in each tray to denote the units present. the
player would go to trays with his units in, and move them. if he moved into a
tray with opposing units in, there would be a battle. this sort of depends on
people not peeking in the trays. it would be trivial to
replace the grid of trays with a set of envelopes - ordinary letter
envelopes would do, with fleets written on index cards. you would then label
each envelope with the grid square it corresponds to. again, we assume the
players can be trusted not to peek.
perhaps the best option is a computer. computers are fairly good at automated
refereeing in simple cases like this. you are bound to either be or know
someone who has enough mastery of computing to knock up a simple tool to do
this.
one other thing springs to mind. a while back, joe dever (the chap behind lone
wolf of fighting fantasy knockoff fame) brought out a series called 'combat
heroes', which contained two pairs of books. one is "black baron"
and "white warlord". these could be played as escape-from-a-dungeon solo
games, or as a two-player game: this involved both players reading out a
string of numbers which accompanied the location they were in (printed at the
bottom of the page). if there was a matching number in both lists, both
players turned to a new page, specified next to that number in the little
table at the bottom of the page. this new page had, as well as the expected
terrain, the other character, who you could then have a crack at.
it really was fiendishly clever, and i've never figured out how it works.
basically, it allowed you to check if the two characters were adjacent (in
some sense) without ever revealing to the other player where you were! well,
if he had an index of the number lists correlated with locations, i expect he
could figure it out, but that's a nontrivial task.
anyway, if it could be figured out, reverse engineered and applied to this
situation, it might allow computerless, refereless blind movement. which would
be nice.
Tom
> On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Stars were colonized by
Clarke's
> THE SONG OF DISTANT EARTH for details.
that's "the songs of distant earth", to be pedantic about plurals :-).
or vernor vinge's "long shot", which is a short story and as such is more to
the point about seeding, with less space elevators, etc.
Tom
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
This system has a long history.
The first place I saw it was in a game called ACE OF ACES. This simulated
combat between WWI fighter planes, Sopwith Camels, Fokker Triplanes, and the
like.
Say you have the Camel, and your opponent has the Fokker. She gets the book
with the pictures of the Camel in it (because that's what she's would see over
her cross hairs) and you get the book with the pictures of the Fokker. At any
given point, each of you are on a given page. (both of you will be on the same
page number) Both of you choose a maneuver secretly. A complicated system
allows you both to determine the new page you are on.
If one of you is lucky (or skilled) enough to get to the
page with your opponent in the cross-hairs, you get to
shoot at them.
A variation of this system was made for Ann MaCaffrey's THE DRAGONRIDERS OF
PERN.
Later somebody adapted it for the LOST WORLDS series. This had various fantasy
creatures fighting each other. This got more complicated, as now some
creatures had maneuvers that other creatures didn't.
This also turned up as a sort of Star Wars Light Sabre duel.
(For those who want the gory details: Each page is numbered. At the bottom of
each page, or on a separate sheet is a list of maneuvers, paired with page
numbers. After you both choose your maneuver, you call out the page number to
your opponent. You both turn to that page number, ignore the image on the
page, and look up your maneuver again. Find it's page number and turn to that.
If both of you have done your job, both of you will end up on the same new
page number)
Another interesting system was FASA's micro game STARSHIP DUEL. It had two
"wheels", one for each player. The wheels were like secret decoder rings, but
with 3 layers. They allowed one to calculate the quadrant one's opponent was
in relative to your own ship.
So it would show, for instance, that your opponent was at four o'clock, and
turned so he was showing you his rear (i.e., it showed two pieces of info,
your opponent's angle to you and his orientation to you)
The top wheel has an overhead view of your ship in the center, surrounded by 8
wedge shaped
holes. The middle wheel (marked View-Port on
the finger tab) has a single wedge shaped hole open. The bottom wheel (marked
Enemy's Move) has 8 images of your enemy, in the 8 possible orientations,
positioned so as to show through the holes. This wheel also has code numbers.
To use, you first change your heading. If you are turning 45 degrees right,
you turn the upper wheel one window to the right. For 90 degrees, turn two
windows.
> On Fri, 02 Apr 1999 20:28:00 -0500 Jon Davis <davis@albany.net> writes:
I can recommend eBay. I just snagged some 2300ad and Classic Traveller stuff
for a very very good price.
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
> that's "the songs of distant earth", to be pedantic about plurals :-).
Also an excellent album by Mike Oldfield. If you have a Mac, you also get an
interactive bit on the CD.
In a message dated 4/2/99 8:41:40 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> atomicat@geocities.com writes:
> << ShldWulf@aol.com wrote:
> I was figuring on the ships being unable to do constant
> That's a good idea. I hadn't really thought about anything except a
What do
> you propose as the specifics of this rule?
I hadn't quite gotten that far yet. (Still waiting on the game I got off EBay
to get here:) But I recall someone once mentioning a plan to divide the orbit
tracks up
into (basicaly) out-tracks, (away from the sun) and in-tracks (towards
the sun), which might work. I'd think you'd need to assign a "thrust rateing"
to each track arc. IE: to take a "short" track you need a higher thrust than a
longer, (but more fuel efficient) track. Thrust 8 can pretty much cut a
striaght shot across orbits, while Thrust of 1 or 2 has to take a long shallow
arc to the target.
> I'd also considered adding some rules for detection and stealth. It
> I like that idea a great deal, but all the ideas I've had on making
records
> in a separate pile clearly marked with the same symbol, letter,
opposing
> player when his fleets meet in space and he starts to shuffle papers
Very true, but then again I was kinda assuming a refree'd type game:) The only
"genuine" sneak attacks were going to be slashing pass'. ie: Your fleet boosts
up to transfer speed and then pass' the target planet at transfer
speed, dropping bombs and shooting up anything they can range on and keeping
going along the orbital track. No manuvers or stand up fighting. Very similar
to the "passing" fight below. Other than that the only thing "detection" was
going to allow was less collateral damage to the planet (Civil defense has
more time to kick in) and more defensive preparedness. The whole thing was
loosely based on the ECM rules and stuff in MT. A fleet ship with Area ECM
would give the defense less time to prepare for your arrival. This would also
have given more incentive to use the longer orbits as I was assuming, the more
Thrust you use to slow from transfer speed, the more visable you become to the
defenders. I was using a similar rule for my Star Trek conversion to track
cloaked ships. Both have gone missing since I came back from Korea. so I'll
have to reconstitue em when I can.
> I'd also considered adding an ability to have a "passing" fight
No
> actual stand up fights as the transfer velocity would be too high.
> That's not a bad idea. I had thought about having this occur when the
Again this was going to require a "detection" roll in my thinking as space is
big enough that you have to be LOOKING for enemies in interplanetary space.
And if you did spot em, it was one good shot with everything and worst odds to
hit, basically hope for the best.
Either way, the compication factor may be too high. I'll keep thinking on it
and would appriciate input also:)
Randy
> ShldWulf@aol.com wrote:
> >> I'd also considered adding an ability to have a "passing" fight
To determine intercept, each fleet rolls a number of dice (d6) equal to the
lowest thrust factor in the fleet. You can break up fleets at this point and
let the slower ships fall behind if you so choose. You can also break up the
fleet into several fleets for whatever purpose you choose; just roll for each
fleet. Remember, each fleet can only attempt to intercept one enemy fleet. The
fleet which rolls the most 5s and 6s gets to choose if the intercept occurs.
Resolve ties by the fleet with the most 6s. If still tied, a "passing" battle
occurs. Of course, two fleets in deep space who both want to engage can feel
free to do so.
> Again this was going to require a "detection" roll in my thinking as
I'm thinking of a game that would not require a referee. In such a game, I was
thinking about requiring a detection roll for ships in the same system track
space along these lines: Take the current thrust of the fleet and add the
number of ships in the fleet minus one to determine the target number. Then
roll 2d6, (3d6 might work well if you want detection to be more difficult.) if
the number rolled is less than the target number, the fleet has been detected.
This system creates a situation where slow speed fleets, current thrust of 1
or 2 (Current thrust of 3 would be included if the 3d6 option were used.) are
undetectable. Therefore, I'd recommend that this system only be used if you
were allowing automatic detection in planetary orbits.
> On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
> Thomas Anderson wrote:
the Magellan uses a space elevator (of the non-synchronous type, iirc)
to lift ice from the planet's surface to orbit, to repair its dust shield.
there's a scene where Kumar (iirc), one of the characters, is sitting on an
ice block when it gets lifted, and consequently dies of vacuum exposure.
> There *was* a space elevator in THE FOUNTAINS OF PARADISE.
now that you come to mention it, yes there was :-). in fact, there is in
most of clarke's later stories.
Tom
> On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Nyrath the nearly wise wrote:
to
> lift ice from the planet's surface to orbit, to repair its dust shield.
Niven's newest book, RAINBOW MARS, has a beanstalk as well...a literal one in
this case! The book is part of the "Svetz" time travel stories ("There's a
Wolf In My Time Machine", et al.). It's a fun book; Niven uses the martians of
Wells, Weinbaum, Burroughs, and a bunch of others
to populate his Mars. It's not his best work--I'm still waiting for
DOWN IN FLAMES to actually be written--but it's still Niven.