Hello As I've posted before under the title "Heinlein Arachnids" we know that
the bugs in the book were not at all like the ones in the movie. First, they
were tool users (they build spaceships and had weapons). Second, their soldier
bugs were not that large (they are about the size of a large dog), they used
their numbers as their most effective weapon. Third, they did a lot more
digging than the movie and used a LOT of trapdoor spider tactics. The list can
go on but I want to get to how I'm going to model Heinlein Arachnids. The
Leadership: Brain bugs have six action markers and are always level two
leaders. They are telepathic and cannot be jammed by EW. They use a d12
quality die. If directly attacked they are automatically destroyed and all
units under their command are immobilized until recontrolled by another Brain
Bug. Whatever any bug under the brain bugs command sees, the brain bug sees.
This is what makes Arachnid heavy weapons so deadly. The brain bug has armor
of 1D4 and moves 6 inches in SGII. Lesser bugs cannot move on their own and
must be activated using an action marker by the Brain Bug. However, they are
capable of responding to local threats and will fight CC and fire within their
range when forces rush their positions. The Workers: Worker bugs are about
half the size of a Soldier bug and have a quality die of 1D4 for combat but a
quality die of 1D12 for digging, work etc. They can tunnel 6 inches a turn in
SGII and otherwise conduct all actions like combat engineers. If added they
can operate support systems like EW etc. They have 1D6 armor and move 12
inches in SGII. A worker squad can carry the brain bug to move him 12 inches.
The Soldiers: Soldier Bugs are about the size of a large dog. They have 1D8
armor and carry Close Combat weapons similar to an assault Shotgun and
have HTH weapons that shift +2. They have a quality die of 1D12 and
ignore morale and modivation factors. They can be suppressed. Soldier bugs can
tunnel 3 inches and move 12 inches in SGII. Heavy Weapons: Because the Brain
Bug sees whatever his minions see they can be very deadly whith artillery and
it is really the only heavy weapon they use. Often they will have their
workers build trap door systems to hide the tubes in tunnels. The Brain Bug
uses an action marker to spot
through an observing soldier/worker squad and then the next action the
shells start to land. The Brain bug could then have the supporting worker
squad move the artillery tubes in the tunnels to a new position or just relie
on the dug in position to enable the tube to survive counter fire. Suicide
warrior bugs may just carry a large bomb into the midst of their enemies and
self detonate. Order of battle. A standard Bug Platoon consists of a Brain
Bug, at least one squad of 10 Worker bugs, and four squads of ten soldier bugs
each. Usually the
platoon will have an additional squad of 10 soldier bugs to operate/move
artillery and another squad of ten soldier bugs to defend them. At the Platoon
level the artillery will consist of one or two RA Mortar tubes.
Another platoon type is tunnel-diggers/engineers where the
ratios are reversed but they carry mines that can be used in the tunnels or
secretly placed for surface dwellers to find... Another platoon type is the
heavy artillery where the ratios are even and they have the big guns plus
possible counter battery radars etc. Arachnids have ships and drop boats but
will generally conduct orbital drops of their soldiers followed by brain bugs
in assault boats.
> *I haven't worked out the rules just yet, I'll pour over the Novel and
> --
Mark, you must have missed this on SST for SGII posted a few days ago (sorry,
don't knw who posted it):
Hi all, With the release of SST, I thought, about the inevitability of
somebody going out and actually doing this on a tabletop! BTW? anybody got
info on the micromachines, esp their cost and how many to a pack?
SO without further ado, here's the writeup for SG II!
Bug Warrior Quality Die=D10 Save Roll=D4 Moves as Fast PA Has Close Combat
Edged Weaponry and PA bonuses for Close Combat Terror Effect May capture a
human if it wounds him in Melee Must recieve 2 kills to kill it, but if the
roll by the firer is a natural even number that results in a kill, the Warrior
is automatically taken down(hit to the nerve stem).
Bug Tanker Quality Die=D10
Armour of 2/1(Treat as Vehicle Target)
As per slow tracked movement, but with Fast PA chart Has Close combat bonuses
as per Warrior Terror Effect
May fire a 12" flame/acid stream from nose, all MI hi by it dice as if
hit by Infantry Plasma Gun
Bug Brain Quality=D4 Moves as per normal infantry May Interrogate PW's(kills
them in process) May not fight and must be portected at all times
Other Notes Bugs have a Moderate ADA rating Unit Integrity=.5" No Morale
Checks except when Brain Bug is threatened No routs except to protect the
Brain Bug No surrender
MI Rifle(Name of the Damn thing escapes me?) Treat as Advanced Assault Rifle
and Shotgun Combo
Nuclear IAVR As per IAVR, but treat Blast and Effects as a hit by Medium Arty
firing anti-personell submunitions.
MI Retrevial Boat Class=5 Superior ECM VTOL Movement
Armour 5/4
Transport for 20 men
Fleet Fighters Class 5 Superior ECM Aero Movement
2 fixed foward HEL/3
racks for DFO
MI Platoon
Cmd Group: 1 LT w/Rifle, 1 SGT w/Rifle, 1 Sniper(w/conventional Sniper
weapon), 1 RTO w/Rifle,
1 IAVR Gunner
3 Squads of 5 men each:
1 Cpl(SL) w/rfl
2 Fireteams of 2 men with Rifles
20 men total
__________________________________________________________________ Sent
by
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Cheers
> Mike.Elliott@BULL.NET wrote:
Well actually I did. I was working on something that is patterned after the
book rather than that horrible movie. You know, PA suits, the bugs have
technology, etc.
> To: "Mark A. Siefert" <cthulhu@csd.uwm.edu>
> In message <346938C1.9F570DE5@csd.uwm.edu>, "Mark A. Siefert" writes:
What I want to know is why send youngsters to die armed with weapons that
obviously had little effect on the bugs. And hadn't anyone given any thought
to a proper perimeter defense (claymores would have
been extremely effective it seems to me!!) - the director and
the producers obviously avoided having any military personnel as
advisors - didn't want to sully their "vision" of the project!!
KR
> What I want to know is why send youngsters to die armed with weapons
KR, now stop that!! You're being entirely TOO sensible here! Sheesh...
Mk
<<What I want to know is why send youngsters to die armed with weapons that
obviously had little effect on the bugs. And hadn't anyone given any thought
to a proper perimeter defense (claymores would have
been extremely effective it seems to me!!) - the director and
the producers obviously avoided having any military personnel as
advisors - didn't want to sully their "vision" of the project!!
KR>>
They seemed to have forgotten the little nukes they carry. That would have
helped slow down the influx of bugs by hitting them as they were approaching
at range.
> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Geo-Hex wrote:
> > To: "Mark A. Siefert" <cthulhu@csd.uwm.edu>
writes:
> > >
No kidding - no area effect weapons, no vehicles, no claymores, no
regular grenades, no tactics whatsoever...
Apparently (this on a website I saw a couple days ago) there was a military
advisor connected with the film...he was either some
rear-echelon
non-combatant or (more likely) he was ignored in favor of the director's
'vision'.
OTOH, very cool sets & models...I want someone to get the rights to make a
'Rodger Young' class ship for FT so I can buy some...the scene where the
ship deploys its dropships on 'outriggers' prior to drop is cool - and
the
ships are really cool generally - although fleet tactics, like ground
tactics, really suck.
The micro-nukes are silly, as used in the movie. In the book, the MI can
fire nukes with gay abandon because they have fully-sealed,
self-contained
suits and so don't have to breath rads...the movie troopers, in addition to
having no tactical training and lousy weaponry for the job, must have
to worry about rad-sickness as well...no filter masks...the operant
(sp?)
phrase for this whole movie really is Poor Bloody Infantry...
OK, enough ST bashing...resolved that the movie was a bad movie with some cool
sets and cool aliens, and little else...just wait for another few weeks until
Alien 4:Resurrection comes out.
(I saw Aliens on tv the night before I saw ST - it made ST look even
worse)
(Has anyone ever produced SG2 stats for that weapon Ripley takes into the
atmosphere plant? The assault rifle + grenade launcher + flamer combo? I
want some for my SG2 squads! And what about that industrial exoskeleton
thing she wrestles the queen in? Any models in 15mm/25mm/6mm?)
Later, (before I get even farther off topic!)
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:34:18, "Phillip E. Pournelle"
> <pepourne@nps.navy.mil> wrote:
> As I've posted before under the title "Heinlein Arachnids" we
First,
> they were tool users (they build spaceships and had weapons). Second,
Okay, I may have some bugs for you! I mentioned a month ago about a new toy
called War Planets. They come in two sizes of packs, one with
a vehicle/robot and some figures and another with a base/fortress
playest and some more figures.
What you want to look for is the Ice Planet set. The Ice planet critters came
in two forms. One looked like an armoured tick with a gun mounted on the top
of it's carapace, while the other had a spider like body, a vaguely reptillian
head, and was holding two guns in its front limbs. It also has a gem on its
back that might be considered a "brain." The ticks would be large dog size for
20 mm figures and might even be passable in small 25mm. Most importantly, the
large set has between 8 and 10 figures for about C$15 (US$11). The smaller
set, with the vehicles, is C$8.
This might do for your purposes. You can check them out at a local Toys R' Us.
> <<What I want to know is why send youngsters to die armed with weapons
The problem is in abandoning the thrust of the book as a story about armoured
infantry problems like radiation from pee wee nukes, and the inability of each
man to carry weapons heavier than a tank emerge that were not present in
Heinlein. MI can tear up a bug with their armoured gauntlets if necessary...
> Brian Burger wrote:
> > What I want to know is why send youngsters to die armed with weapons
Sure as well wouldn't be the first time our military has been caught
unprerpared for a major war!
> Brian Burger wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Geo-Hex wrote:
The miltary advisor to the film was none other than Cpt Dale Dye (USMC-
Ret.). He's probably the best militatry advisor in hollywood and in very hi
demand. He was the advisor for platoon, (He also starred as the company
commander in that movie). Dye was a rifle company commander in Vietnam so he
knows his shit....which makes the easilty fixable tactics problems with the
film more dismaying. I can only surmise that Verhoeven runs the film,
regardless of what input anyone gives him. Of course Verhoeven was an officer
in the Dutch Marines too, so he should know better.
> Stuart Ford wrote:
TWIMC,
The TO+E for the SST is very slim indeed. Four shotgun(?)
shells to the squad, one grenade to the 'man of destiny' in the
company , one nuke to the regiment. Lets face it guys, the supply
types gave them a nuke on the last landing, the MI used it up on the
very first drop that they made! You can't really expect to have
another nuke handed out to people who dont take care of thier equipment!
Suggestions for those who have yet to see 'SST". 1) Suspend belief. 2) Suspend
disbelief. 3) Cancel Logic. 4) Cancel Tactics. 5) Ignore the Love Story. (Star
crossed Lovers?) 6) Remember the Alamo. (Or Zulu) 7) Try to figure out why
Dougie Houser was telling the general public how to kill bugs with one burst,
but this information was not passed on to the MI Troops. 8) Try to figure out
how the ships that were cut in half made it back to the starbase? 9) Try to
figure out why the ships did not adopt a nose down attitude when in orbit?
(this would have reduced the target aspect by 80%)
By the way, they leave a very messy battlefield.
I did enjoy the movie, even with the many flaws.
Bye for now,
Hmmm, by the same token and chain of thought - wouldn't claymores be
rather in-effective against burrowing targets? Claymores are aimed out
not down.
> ----------
> (Has anyone ever produced SG2 stats for that weapon Ripley takes into
I
> want some for my SG2 squads! And what about that industrial exoskeleton
Leading Edge used to produce a power loader in 25mm, however, they are next to
impossible to find now. Might be a nice piece of generic kit for a spaceport
though (hint here Jon, possibly for the new line of
non-combatant
space figs?)
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> Which leads to my theory that it was quite deliberate. I still think
You may be correct sir...
Hello We ran a SGII scenario with the Arachnids in play this last weekend and
here are some corrections to my previous postings on the subject. The
Leadership: Brain bugs have six action markers and are always level two
leaders. They are telepathic and cannot be jammed by EW. They use a d12
quality die. If directly attacked they are automatically destroyed and all
units under their command are immobilized until recontrolled by another Brain
Bug. Whatever any bug under the brain bugs command sees, the brain bug sees.
This is what makes Arachnid heavy weapons so deadly. The brain bug has armor
of 1D4 and moves 6 inches in SGII. Normal Brains are leader 2s and can be 1 or
3 as required. Lesser bugs cannot move on their own and must be activated
using an action marker by the Brain Bug. However, they are capable of
responding to local threats and will fight CC and fire within their range when
forces rush their positions. The Workers: Worker bugs are about half the size
of a Soldier bug and have a quality die of 1D4 for combat but a quality die of
1D12 for digging, work etc. They can tunnel 3 inches an action in SGII and
otherwise conduct all actions like combat engineers. If added they can operate
support systems like EW etc. They have 1D6 armor and move 12 inches in SGII. A
worker squad can carry the brain bug to move him 12 inches. Workers can also
carry blasting charge that can act like a mine or collapse a tunnel. The
Soldiers: Soldier Bugs are about the size of a large dog. They have 1D8 armor
and carry Close Combat weapons similar to an assault Shotgun and
have HTH weapons that shift +2. They have a quality die of 1D12 and
ignore morale and modivation factors. They can be suppressed. Soldier bugs can
tunnel 1.5 inches an action and always move combat movement of 1D8 inches in
SGII. Heavy Weapons: Because the Brain Bug sees whatever his minions see they
can be very deadly whith artillery and it is really the only heavy weapon they
use. Often they will have their workers build trap door systems to hide the
tubes in tunnels. The Brain Bug uses an action marker to spot
through an observing soldier/worker squad and then the next action the
shells start to land. The Brain bug could then have the supporting worker
squad move the artillery tubes in the tunnels to a new position or just relie
on the dug in position to enable the tube to survive counter fire. This is
very important because the bugs are at a disadvantage against the humans with
ranged weapons and can easily be pinned. I might use the movie bugs as super
soldiers to get something to offset the powered armor guys. They really tear
into the soldiers in hand to hand combat. On the other hand the normal soldier
bugs were very effective in HTH versus the normal troopers. Suicide warrior
bugs may just carry a large bomb into the midst of their enemies and self
detonate. Order of battle. A standard Bug Platoon consists of a Brain Bug, at
least one squad of 10 Worker bugs, and four squads of ten soldier bugs each.
Usually the
platoon will have an additional squad of 10 soldier bugs to operate/move
artillery and another squad of ten soldier bugs to defend them. At the Platoon
level the artillery will consist of one or two RA Mortar tubes.
Another platoon type is tunnel-diggers/engineers where the
ratios are reversed but they carry mines that can be used in the tunnels or
secretly placed for surface dwellers to find... Another platoon type is the
heavy artillery where the ratios are even and they have the big guns plus
possible counter battery radars etc. Arachnids have ships and drop boats but
will generally conduct orbital drops of their soldiers followed by brain bugs
in assault boats. If you are using my points system then a normal arachnid
soldier or worker costs 10 points each. The artillery costs are as from DSII.
Otherwise the point multiple is 2.5. This worked reasonably well for a bug
hunt game we played, but I got frustrated when my bugs kept getting pinned.
This meant I kept them underground a lot and used mines to annoy the humans.
Because it is easy to pin a bug hole I recomend that before you open a tunnel
you build an antechamber large enough to fit two soldier squads in it. The
first one can breach the surface and will inevitably be pinned, the second one
can then follow through and engage the enemy at hand to hand combat. Gort,
Klatu verada nictu!
Mr.Pournelle wrote
> ----------
> On the other hand the normal soldier bugs were very effective in
I don't have my copy of the book as I've loaned it to a friend but I don't
remember anything in the book to indicate workers were a different size than
the warriors. It does say they look alike and you have to look very closely to
tell them apart. Also after Ricco fell down the hole and got back out he
radioed his men to look very carefully to see if they were workers or
warriors. I would say they should be the same size. Also I believe I remember
Ricco saying a man in a power suit is more than a match for a warrior (I'm not
thinking of the gorrilla reference) unless he was swarmed.
As another issue MI were spaced out distance wise. Ricco mentions being about
300 yards or metres and that was the equivalent of being shoulder to shoulder.