Got my copy of Stargrunt a few days ago, so pardon the newbie questions, but
I'm trying to work out TO&Es which are usable for both DS and SG. Easy with
the unarmored infantry (squad=2 Dirtside teams, 1 rifle team=4 men). But the
Power Armor is driving me up the wall. The
only way I can see to make it work with a 6-man squad of power armor is
to call a team of PA 3 men, and reconfigure all my APCs to carry 2 elements of
Powered Armor. Which only works (Folks, I'm NOT trying to use a size 4 APC for
a single squad!) if you use the SG construction rules and an element of PA
takes up 6 points of space, not 8. Anyone think this would be too unbalancing?
This kinda limits the firepower
of this APC to a GAC/1. But how much fire support does it need?
APFCs--how would I represent these in Stargrunt?
APSWs--don't appear to have an equivelant in Stargrunt. All the
Stargrunt machine guns are one-man affairs, LMGs. Or is an APSW team a
team armed with 4xSAWs? What happened to crew-served support weapons
short of light AT guns (RFAC/1)?
Finally, IAVRs and GMS/Ps. In Dirtside all your good infantry (and
some of your crappy infantry) carries IAVRs. In Stargrunt GMS/Ps are
issued at the rate of 1 per squad and screw the IAVRs. I'm working on the
basis that to qualify as carrying IAVRs in Dirtside, several have
to be carried by the Stargrunt team. And 1 GMS/P would translate to. .
. I'm torn between a 1 or 2 chit GMS/L or 1 GMS/P=Dirtside IAVRs.
Whatever. Comments?
> John Atkinson wrote:
Or a four man PA rifle/assault team and a two man PA heavy weapon
team.
> I'm NOT trying to use a size 4 APC for a single squad!) if you use
I always design vehicles under the SG rules, if your going to use the same TOE
for both games it's the only way to go.
> APFCs--how would I represent these in Stargrunt?
The anti-IAVR properties can be represented by upping the armour of
the vehicle vs those attacks. The anti-Infantry by using the rules
for claymores, (um, er, CDMs are they called in SG?)
> APSWs--don't appear to have an equivelant in Stargrunt. All the
Yeah this is a problem. We had a big debate about it earlier this year. Look
in Jerry's archives. In short SG SAWs and DS APSWs serve the same function in
the rules despite the fact that they represent different classes of weapons.
SAWs are LMGs and APSWs are HMGs. LMGs are factored into the standard rifle
team in DS2 but HMGs are absent from SG2.
The other support weapons, (AGL and PPG/I) are more or less like
combined APSW/IAVR when converted to DS2, though I tend to reduce the
range. I'll dig up my exact stats and post them.
I have some rules for Heavy Support Weapons (HMGs etc.) which are still
undergoing change as a result of that debate I mentioned above. When finished
I'll put them on my mythical SG site.
> Finally, IAVRs and GMS/Ps. In Dirtside all your good infantry (and
In SG2 it's less book keeping to keep track of a 3 shot GMS/P than it
is to keep track of a squad with one IAVR per trooper. The infantry rocket
line on the SG2 weapons chart gives the stats for
IAVRs (and for reloadable rocket launchers). I treat the GMS/P as a 2
chit, 12" GMS in DS2. Points costs 10,15,20.
cheers,
> John Atkinson wrote:
Increase the stargrunt armour by 1 vs missiles & IAVR (armour 1 becomes armour
2) This also works for Ablative armour vs lasers.
> APSWs--don't appear to have an equivelant in Stargrunt. All the
The APSW teams is the SG machine gunners, you work it by combining 1-2
standard infantry bases with the APSW base, this gives a SG squad of 10 men.
All the other weapons smaller than towed guns or GMS/L are taken into
account as part of the infantry firefight & infantry close assault rules
(6" in DS is about equivalent to 40-50" in SG)
> Finally, IAVRs and GMS/Ps. In Dirtside all your good infantry (and
.
> . I'm torn between a 1 or 2 chit GMS/L or 1 GMS/P=Dirtside IAVRs.
The stargrunt GMS/P would probably convert to an IAVR is DS, due to the
range classifications. The only real difference is the SG GMS/P carries
multiple rounds, whereas DS presumes the infantry have an unlimited supply of
ammo (they've got boxes of ammo with them if in a fixed position, or resupply
from their transports.)
'Neath Southern Skies
Hi John,
Re: the Dirtside/Stargrunt dilemma, well no-one ever promised that SG
and DS were a seamless join and there a plenty of places where overlaps and
ommissions occur. My advice is "Don't fight the Pink" ie just accept that
there are differences and play the rules as they are. If you need to meld the
two then just be flexible (an oft quoted Principle of War
eh?)
1. The Dirtside fireteams I think you'll find are 3-5 men and often
include a SAW, the GMS teams are 2-3 men plus cost of GMS which is
effectively the GMS/P of Stargrunt. PA squads in Stargrunt generally use
two APCs, eg NSL TO&E state taht they use one for the troopers and one for the
armour suits.
2. The APFC belt charge is not really covered in SGII; lets face it vehicles
are not meant to play a huge role in the game. It is menat to be focused on
the infantry firefights. Vehicles are generally just a battle taxi to get onto
or close to the objective or else an annoying target for the 'grunts'.
Personally I'd advise against using them in SGII; if you MUST then simply any
enemy infantry who come within 3 inches of the vehicle would face a HE blast
probably d8 similar to mines
or artillery. If you want to be nasty make it d12 as in the Anti-Pers
arty rounds. Mind you I'd say that you should consider a chance some friendly
Infantry IFF may be faulty and would have a chance of setting the charge off.
Really though the APFC should probably only be found on Tanks and similar AFV
not APCs or MICVs?
3. The APSW dilemma has been raging for ages. GZG have tactfully avoided
becoming embroiled in this. For whatever reason there is no heavy calibre
machine style support weapon in SG II. APSWs generally include the Auto GL and
PPG. If you go back through the mail archives you'll find plenty of discussion
material on peoples personal arguments for a HMG.
4. IAVRs are there in SGII, people just tend to not use them. The TO&E in the
rules just don't happen to include them but then again they don't include Auto
GLs either. My TO&E for OU and PAU make good use of IAVRs inplace of the GMS.
Let's face it, the weapon systems have individual optimum employments. GMS are
best in open country and IAVR
and PPG against bunkers/light AFVs or in close country (jungles or
urban). IAVRs in SG have a range equal to the firers skill eg Regulars max
range of 40 inches; what does that equate to in DSII?
Good hunting,
> You wrote:
> two APCs, eg NSL TO&E state taht they use one for the troopers and one
That's gotta be hideous if they're attacked. With the weapons in one and the
men in another, how do you react to an ambush?
> the charge off. Really though the APFC should probably only be found
Of course. I was thinking I'd like to do a scenario where a tank w/o
infantry support is caught, fat dumb and happy, in a restricted area and my
opponent learns to speak of satchel charges with fear and trembling.
Hah, tanks without infantry support is really fat dumb and DEAD.
We've played a number of games where a lone tank ends up crippled slowly
chewed to pieces. Yeah, he can engage two targets, one with main gun and the
other with coax or other MGs but the infantry just get around him. Eventually
his mobility goes and then systems then
morale.........................................We never needed the
satchel charges limpet mines or whatever, the IAVR and GMS rounds will work.
Owen
[quoted original message omitted]
Glover, spake thusly upon matters weighty:
Of course, I'd have to ask, how many infantry per tank? One section
(probably 2 fireteams)? Or a whole platoon (about 6-10 fireteams
counting the weapons det)? If you assume a normal tank formation is four or
five tanks, and pitted that against a platoon, especially if they are grav
mobile and equipped with gauss saws, megawatt lasers, RFACs, etc. with good
armour and good EW, then I don't think the infantry will find it a walk in the
park.
But I'm not taking the tanker's side here.... (another holy war....) I'm just
saying like most things it is a matter of balance. Deploying infantry without
support or armour without support is a force divider rather than a force
multiplier. Each arm serves a purpose and they are meant to be deployed
together (or at least in support of each other). (Which is what you are saying
I think).
Tom.
> Hah, tanks without infantry support is really fat dumb and DEAD.
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> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Glover, spake thusly upon matters weighty:
The big IF in this situation is the terrain. In the city, in closed terrain,
then the tankers basically have their pants around their ankles. Out in the
open they stand a good chance.
> But I'm not taking the tanker's side here.... (another holy war....)
I'm consitering getting STII and/or DSII, I'm wondering if anyone would
be kind enuff to give an exsample of each combat system and give a little bit
about what the system will handle. Thanks
-Stephen
> On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 DracSpy@aol.com wrote:
> I'm consitering getting STII and/or DSII, I'm wondering if anyone
Oh, what the hell - I'll give it a shot. Anyone who thinks I'm utterly
wrong or wants to add something should of course feel free...
This is, of course, all based on my experiences with the two games, and the
style of play my gaming group & I use. YMMV.
Dirtside II is microarmour SciFi, using 1:300/1:285/6mm figures. One
tank/etc miniature is one tank/etc in the game; vehicles are grouped and
used in platoons of 2-5 vehicles, depending on type. Morale and
motivation recieve a fair amount of attention. As a 'generic' system, DS2 can
handle supertanks, Ogres, 'mechs, and many other monstrosities; it does best
with more normal types of vehicles and infantry. Game size can get up to very
large forces; a 'usual' game (for my gaming group) is between 5-12
platoons per side (that's roughly 15-50 vehicles per side, give or
take). Big games tend to get a bit slow...no surprise. A very cool game.
Stargrunt II is SciFi infantry action, using 15 or 25mm figures. One
miniature is again one person/vehicle/etc; infantry is grouped in squads
of 4-10 depending on type; vehicles operate singly. A number of
mechanisms are common with DS2; with suppression, command&control, and morale
recieving even more attention. A usual game for us is 4-6 squads per
side (lack of figures right now more than anything) and it moves fairly fast.
I
know people run Company-level games a great deal; that's 10-15+ squads
per side. An even cooler game than Dirtside II, in some ways...different
scales & aims.
I should give warning that our group has a fairly relaxed style of play
-
we're more than likely to talk a great deal while playing; if you got really
focused you could play a great deal faster than we do, I'm sure.
So our ideas of small/usual/large games might not be other peoples who
focus more on the actual game. But we enjoy it, and it's supposed to be a
social thing, right? If I just wanted to play a game I'd stay home with the
damned computer.
Bottom line: buy them both if you can. They're both very excellent games, well
worth some time and cash.
Comments always welcome.
> I'm consitering getting STII and/or DSII, I'm wondering if anyone
I am thinking about getting one of them as well.
<lamehumor>AND NOW presenting the most Powerful weapon of all time!!!
THE HEL/666!!!!!!</lamehumor>
Has anyone Hear seen Chaos Gate? I got it for christmas. It is a
Warhammer:40k computer game. All X-com Style combat in WH:40k
universe. It is rather good! I also enjoy Final Liberation. Epic 40k computer
game. Is anyone interested in multiplayer games for either
of them????
Quote From my ever Growing Quotes and jokes.txt
243. "To delight in war is a merit in a soldier, a dangerous quality
in the captian, and a positive crime in a statesman." -- George
Santayanna, The Life of Reason Aaron Davis
http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/castle/8274/index.html
In a message dated 99-01-20 03:47:59 EST, you write:
<< Bottom line: buy them both if you can. They're both very excellent games,
well worth some time and cash.
Comments always welcome.
Brian (burger00@camosun.bc.ca)
-- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/games.html --DS2/SG2/misc--
> [quoted text omitted]
Okay, I think that I'll take you advice, assuming that I get the raise that
I'm up for at the end of the month. On a side note I have gotten a few space
combat games, altho I stile play all of them FT is the one that I play the
most, no checking rules when I want to fire a pulse torp at 7"!
> At 08:47 PM 1/20/99 EST, you wrote:
I concur absolutely. Especially for SG2. I was very disillusioned with
squad based sci-fi games. SG2 got me interested again with a passion.
The figures are a) cheaper then almost all others b) look better then almost
all others and c) actually look realistic, a failing of almost all other
minnies of the same scale.
As for the rules, after a simple introduction they are easy to pick up and
play. They make far more sense to me, and sensible rules tend to kill most
arguments away. At least for me.
The only failing for SG2 is the scenario base of it. You need someone to
create the scenario and to try to make it reasonable or fair. One or the
other. Mind you this is also one of it's greatest strengths. No more of those
senseless stand 'em up and shoot games the other companies seem hell bent of
playing.
> Brian (burger00@camosun.bc.ca)