From: Dean Gundberg <dean.gundberg@n...>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:57:58 -0600
Subject: RE: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions
> Dean's "Starship Combat News" pages (Dean, the URL please <g>) is IMO
Thanks for the plug Oerjan :-) The URL is in my signature below.
I have thought of offering to post a brief weekly message of the latest
releases and news in the world of space games and minis but I don't want to
get this list too off topic and would do it only if the list would like it.
For example, some of the most recent news items are:
- Fat Messiah Games releases 'Hard Vacuum' a game of W.W.II pulp space
fighter combat (US vs. the Nazis)
- The Necron minis have been released for 'Battlefleet Gothic' in the
UK, US to follow next month.
- Pre-orders are now being taken for the 'Starmada' Expansion Two
supplement.
- AOG has a special offer where you could get a Warlock mini to give as
a Christmas gift.
- 'Red Chicken Rising' tactical space rules in the Generic Legions
universe are now available online (the only known rules that begin with a
shower scene).
- 'Spacedock', the unreleased ship construction supplement for LUG's
late Star Trek RPG is now available online.
If the list feels this type of info would be appropriate, I can do a weekly
post of the latest news but it would be mainly non-GZG products and it
may be a bit too far OT.
Dean Gundberg
Starship Combat News The latest information on Space Games and Miniatures
http://star_ranger.homestead.com/
star_ranger@my-deja.com
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:10 2000
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Subject: Noble Armada Metal ships and Star Ranger's site notice
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***
I actually like the metal minis they put out though they do have a bit more
flash than I'd like. They are scuplted and cast by AOG and the Dreadnoughts
have no bottom detail but otherwise I will have a fleet of Decados ships
painted someday.
***
Having finally seen completed models, I admit to finding them not shabby. My
comment about 'disappointing' referred to my complaint earlier of
somewhat mangled/twisted in-box parts. Flash, likewise.
As far as getting painted, we all have piles of lead bought with best
intentions. ;->=
For a news update to the list, I think you are wise to to show concern, but a
reminder of your site is a Good Thing, and an inclusion of 'latest' news
headlines would seem appropriate.
Adding one or two other 'reminded' URL's, say, GZG's FAQ's and/or the
Unofficial's, and such an update note would be VERY useful, I think.
Is this getting too much like work?
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:56:52 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: [FT] SML-AF Was Re: More weapon...
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> I will make some humble suggestions (ignore at will).
I TRY not to ignore suggestions (even though the poor misguided
people who give them just don't realize just how right I am ;-)
> I would remove the prohibition against fighter secondary movement, but
I actually thought of this and didn't include it on purpose. The question was
one of balance. An SML salvo is 2 MASS, equal to 2 PDSs, which are reusable.
If it's too easy for fighters to evade, then you may as well go with more
PDSs. Of course, on the other hand, you need
to make sure the SML-AF is not too overpowering either. As it stands,
the SML-AF will generally kill 1.2 fighters from every full squadron
in the area of effect.
My rationale: trading an offensive salvo for one that is only good against
fighters is already a penalty and (in the way that I designed it) you only get
a good payoff IF there are many fighters on the board AND those fighters are
close together.
Keeping the secondary movement out of the equation makes things much
more simple. Otherwise you'll just trade that SML-AF for endurance
(and a couple fighters from one group).
As for the "friend or foe" problem, I was initially planning to say "all"
targets, but decided against it. I'm actually still vacillating on this one,
so please argue away (pro or con).
> Before anti-missile fire, roll to see how many missiles lock on target
As fighters only score kills on a 5 or 6, a full strength fighter group will
kill an average of 2 missiles. This means that an average 1.5 (1 or 2)
missiles will penetrate. Having each missile roll a d6 for kills seemed like
an overkill to me. Too powerful.
Likewise rolling one die for the number of missiles and then distributing
among available targets defeats the purpose of the weapon. It becomes VASTLY
less effective for even two fighter groups, who with 4 kills will generally
defeat the weapon.
> I would also suggest limiting the range of AFSMs to 12mu for the
I don't care for the 12 MU limitation. I wanted to keep everything, except the
effect, the same as standard SMLs. In that spirit, I'd thought that the arc
question would have been readily apparent. Of course you can only use the arc
of the launcher AND of course that launcher can only fire one salvo a turn,
regardless of what type of salvo it is. I guess I should have stated that
explicitly.
Thanx for the comments!
Schoon
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:11 2000
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:07:49 -0500
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
References:
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> "Jones, Tim" wrote:
If I had the time I'd take a few pics of my bad paint jobs for you and post
'em. Luckily for you (or me?) you won't have to be subjected
to my poor painting. ;-)
In any event, what I did was do an in-depth search for any American
Indian art/design/warpaint-type stuff (even though a lot of it isn't
real 'warpaint' schemes) and adapt those designs to the shells of my
Phalons (the shells are an off-tan and the Phalon bio-ships themselves
are a purple color). Designs like concentric diamonds of alternating colors
(usually two colors, such as black and red), stacked or parallel
lightning bolt-like jagged lines, concentric circles, stacked wavey
lines, etc.
If that doesn't help, or you REALLY want to see pics, then I guess you'll have
to give me time to dig things up and take some photos (and then scan
them, post them, etc them ;-)
Mk
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:36:47 -0500
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Paul Radford has some nice pictures of Phalon ships at
http://www.innotts.co.uk/~paulradford/ft/gallery-phc.html
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org
-----
> -----Original Message-----
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From: "Mark A. Siefert" <siefertma@netzero.net>
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<html><head></head><body>Hello:<br>
<br>
It has taken 7 years of bouncing from major to major to do it, bu
t it's done. I've finally graduated from UWM! <br>
<br>
Besides that fact that graduation means I've got to get a (shudde
r) REAL
JOB, it also means that my much-neglected Internet service at UWM
will be folding soon, taking the UFTWWWP with it. Right now, I'm in the
process of packing up the files and shipping them off to my new WWW
site. I'm als o going to work on "restoring" (improving interface,
updating links, fixing errors, etc.) the UFTWWWP. To help accomplish
this task, I could use some help from the list. If there are any sites
or files that I have missed or neglected, please let me know. If you can
think of better ways from me to present the information on the page, please
let me know. If you are an at tractive,
single female who's interested in a long-term relationship with a
mildly corpulent, somewhat homely, gamer.... maybe that's too much to hope
for.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature">--
Later, Mark A. Siefert
"The human race divides itself politically into those who want people to be
controlled and those who have no such desire"
--Robert A. Heinlein
"The Notebooks of Lazarus Long"
E-MAIL: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:siefertma@netzero.com"
> siefertma@netzero.com</a> WWW: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http:/
/www.homegame.org/siefert">http://www.homegame.org/siefert</a>
=======================================================================<
/pre>
</body></html>
____________NetZero Free Internet Access and Email_________
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> Pat Connaughton wrote:
> > I was chatting with a good friend yesterday and he mentioned
> In FT the missiles can all be launched from the ship itself in a
Yeah, this is about the closest thing that FT offers to HH "missile pods"; you
can increase your total "throw weight" (to use the HH term) for the first
salvo tremendously at the compromise of long-term ammunition by
substituting racks for launchers. If you were to, for instance, throw half of
your missiles as racks instead of launchers your first missile barrage would
be about half again as large.
It's been a little while since I've tinkered with FT, so I don't recall the
exact mass numbers involved.
> 'Course, you *can* design an engine-less, Fragile-hulled "ship"
Yeah... there's no combination of engine-less "pods" and FTL tugs that
will
allow you to more efficiently throw missiles in deep space with non-FTL
towed vessels than you would by just piling racks and launchers onto the
FTL-capable
ships under the FT rules. In a long-term campaign game, you could
theoretically make it viable by having tugs haul pods around before the battle
and come up with some house rules to allow ships to tow them under
non-FTL thrust, but in one-off games there's no way to do it more
efficiently than just sticking the missiles on the regular warships.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stiltman@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and > < surrender your
money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. > < Competition is irrelevant. We will add
your financial and > < technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software
> < will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:12 2000
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New Conversion of Babylon 5 for FT
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:46:33 +0100
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> Peter Mancini wrote:
> Hm? Not sure if you mean 3-5 crew members or 3-5 crew stars on >>SSD
Some people have previously suggested that the G'Quan-class cruisers
had a total crew complement of 3 (because they hadn't seen any shots of the
rest of the crew), but I couldn't remember if you were one of them
:-/
> I can name another well-known SF series (movies though, not TV)
Why don't today's navies use the terminology of the Napoleonic War fleets? A
"frigate" today has very different tasks from what a "frigate" had 200 years
ago, or even 100 years ago. B5 is set some 260 years into the future. What
makes you think that the naval terms will stop changing their meaning today,
when they have changed continously for the past two centuries and more?
> The same problem as the Shadow beam weapon, but we've >>swapped roles
"Always" = "since FB1 was published". The KV armour in MT didn't ablate, ever.
(Funny thing though - before MT was published people complained that
the KV armour was unrealistic, so they created house rules with armour
boxes; now that the FBx armour rules are in place they - yes, some of
them are the same people - argue that *this* is unrealistic and want to
go back to the MT-style armour...)
> In my version it must take checks. You can punch holes in my armor
Please do. Remember to keep track of the die rolls though - I've played
far too many playtest battles where luck with the dice completely overshadowed
the things we wanted to test. Like my tendency to roll an
average damage of 1 per beam die whenever I use C-tuned Pulsers rather
than the more usual 0.8 per beam die; or why not Indy's performance
when playtesting Kra'Vak (same to-hit rolls as P-torps - go figure...)
<g>
> In the standard game the EMP MT missile and the Needle Beam >>clearly
Then you may want to re-word the PSB as well. K-guns are archetypal
high-velocity kinetic weapons, and the current PSB specifically says
that the armour blocks are meant to stop kinetic weapons.
> See the comments about the Shadows vs Minbari above. In the >>show it
Like when? The only such occasions I can recall at the moment have the Narn
ships supported by psykers of other races.
> Shadows are tough, but even the fricking Minbari beat them 1000
The Minbari won the previous Shadow war only by being allied to the Vorlons as
well as just about every other minor race in existance at the time, *and* by
getting rather impressive material aid from the future (the appearance of
Babylon 4 was one of the decisive things in
that war)... pretty much the same situation as in the B5-era war.
If that makes the Shadows a "biker gang", it must be rather nastier
than the world-wide Hell's Angels and Bandidos baked into one unified
organisation :-/
> The real question is, at what point do I need to worry about this?
At least the early battles were like this. After a while it got less
one-sided :-/
> Sort of like the transition for
If they had figured this out prior to 900BC, why didn't they stop
having one mounted horse-holder for each mounted fighter until around
750BC...?
> As my friend comments about the Omegas, "Ram Speed Mr. Sulu!"
"[Only one human has fought the Minbari and survived]. He is behind me. You
are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
:-)
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: FT-Bug designs
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:59:10 +0100
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Hm. Isn't it fun when the post people reply to arrives a day or two after the
replies... Some comments to Brendan Robertson's post are included below, but
most of it is replies to BIF:
> Let me check I`ve got this right-
Yes.
> If they are a effective anti-fighter weapon, instead of using 2D6 >for
Pulsers don't need FCSs to fire in anti-fighter mode; they work exactly
like PDSs. Heavy fighters getting no bonus is less effective than an extra
die; though whether or not you want to add an extra die to the
Pulser's point-defence firepower (each such die increases the weapon's
cost by 1xMass) depends a bit on how many fighters and/or missiles you
plan to throw at it.
Come to think of it, Plasma Guns can't shoot down Starfire missiles (only
fighters, against which they're very nasty), but OTOH the Starfire point
defences are rather better at hitting missiles than FT PDS is... using the
Pulsers as they are in FB2 (though restricting them to C tuning) probably
evens out fairly well, giving a reasonable approximation against both fighters
and missiles. I was thinking of the
anti-fighter capability only and forgot about anti-missile firepower
<sheepish grin>
> Archer SD-Pure heavy missile platform, designed to provide heavy >long
Yes. Outranging the beams on the Avalanche - IIRC your Archer design in
the FTSR has SM-ER rather than standard SMs, which is right on target.
(If it doesn't have SM-ER, it should <g>)
> Avalanche SD-Pure long range energy weapon platform. Cl.3 bat >equipt.
Yes.
> Auger SD-Require a heavy needle beam type weapon, but is slow >firing.
We can represent this by making the heavy needle beams >require more mass. I
know this would make the weapons more >vulnerable to damage, so you could just
have limited firecons, limiting >the number of beams that can be fired at
once.
OTOH few large weapons are easier to repair than many small ones :-/
Unless you want to keep track of which weapons fire each turn (which is a pain
in Starfire as well), few large weapons is the way to go. Less
book-keeping, too.
(Brendan's "cutter" weapon is IMO considerably nastier than even the
Republican advanced primary beam featured in the battle of Zapata in
"Insurrection".)
> Ambush BC-??? I realise this design will be slower than a normal BC,
Thrust rating half-way between Bug and Alliance SDNs.
> What weapon loadout would be reasonable?
Massive short-range missile batteries - normal-range SMs fit the bill.
No beams.
Also, since the Ambushes were actually scouts and survey units rather than
"real" warships (...it took the Allies quite some time to realise this
though!), they should also have a small "science lab" to
represent the survey instruments - effectively a small "cargo hold", 1
Mass or so in size. (These instruments didn't give any advantage in
tactical battles, which is why I don't classify them as Enhanced/
Superior sensors.)
> I remember from the book that the BC`s had some missile weapons, >but
A mixed armament would be *better* (at least in FT), but the Bugs were really
hot on specialized weapon loads so it would also be very
*un-Buggy* as well. ('Course, some people say de-bugged is *always*
better... <g>).
The Allies OTOH only used specialized designs for carriers and
long-range missile platforms; the shorter-range combattants all had
various mixed armaments.
> Antilope BC-A later design, introduced as a direct answer to the
The Antelope class had slightly lighter armament than the
Dunkerque-class, but more point defence and armour. Same speed as the
Dunkerques (ie. a bit faster than the Allied SDNs, and quite a bit faster than
Bug heavies).
> Caterphact CLE-PDS ecort light cruiser.
Yes and yes (though "Cataphract").
> Cleaver CLP-Plasma gun (a.la. acid sd) light cruiser
No, the Cannon was the plasma-armed one. The Cleaver had primary beams
(the short-ranged version rather than the long-ranged version used on
the Augers), so a multi-arc version of the FT needle beam would be
appropriate. I'm thinking of using the same Mass scheme for Needle
beams as for Pulsers (ie. 1-arc = 2 Mass, 3-arc = 3 Mass, 6-arc = 4
Mass), but I haven't had time to playtest it yet so can't comment on its game
balance.
> Barfly CH???-
CL. You're probably confusing them with the Terran Hun-class survey
crusiers, which were undersized CHs.
> Cloak capable cruiser, design to scout or recon/lay dormant until
The Barflies were effectively half-sized Ambush-class ships, yes. Light
missile armament, no beams, plus the cloak and science instruments.
Side note: all the Bug BCs and SDNs (and some fleet auxiliaries) were
technically able to cloak, as were most of the Alliance ships, but since
Starfire cloaking systems are far less effective than Full Thrust cloak once
you reach combat ranges I wouldn't bother with cloak on these other ships
unless your gaming area covers half a star system or so <g>
> PDS weak (easy meat for a fighter strike).
Yes.
> Guardian? CH-Very slow (thrust 1) defence ship, designed to be a
2 types: Derringer (long-range missiles like the Archer SDN) and Danger
(plasma guns like the Acid).
> Bug capitol ship are slow and tough (except the antilope BC), while
Most cruisers are quite slow as well - the light cruisers discussed
above are no faster than the Ambush-class BCs. The assault cruisers
("C" names) are extremely heavily armed though. The only really fast Bug ships
were the Antelopes and their consorts (see below), and some suicide units
which should feature quite a bit in the sequel to IDG.
> Bug Primary Beams (heavy needle beams)
Hm. Looks rather complicated, particularly when you need to keep track of how
much of the engine you can and can't repair... I'd prefer a
simple "2 dice at range 0-12, 1 die at range 12-24", though I'm not
sure of Mass ratings. Brendan's suggested 5+2 per extra arc up to 3
feels a bit too high for wide arcs of fire, but I don't have any better
suggestion myself at the moment :-/
> These are the way I`m going to attempt to redesign my bug designs,
Done <g>
> I don`t think I`ve forgoten any ships,
None that are explicitly mentioned in the novel, no. The two different types
of WP defence cruisers are IIRC only vaguely hinted at in the novel; at least
one of the two Antelope variants (Appian and Antler, the datalink command and
advanced fire control versions respectively) is mentioned in one of Admiral
Sommers' battles but never named. (It is easiest to ignore these Antelope
variants and just say that both advanced FCS and command datalink is subsumed
into the ships' normal FT
capabilities - trying to work Starfire-style advanced firecons into
Full Thrust is a *major* game balance pain, and datalinks aren't much
better :-( )
One last thing - as Brendan wrote, the Bugs historically used
commercial drives on most ships (all but the Antelopes, the Assault Fleet
(Cannon, Carbine etc) and the suicide units) rather than the normal military
drives. Commercial engines take up twice the size of military engines giving
the same thrust rating, but OTOH they are cheap
(Mass/2 rather than Mass*2). Since Allied units were the same physical
size as Bug units of the same type (SDN, BC, whatever), this meant that the
Bug ships had less weapons etc. than their Alliance counterparts.
This is only important if you use them in points-balanced battles
though - but that'd be about as far from the novel as you can get <g>
Later,
Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com
"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:13 2000
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:54 -0800
From: Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
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Subject: Re: [sg] Starter Group
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> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> From the looks of it you're going to go with the 25mm figs. Where I
Since there isn't much choice in what you get with 15mm it's fairly easy to
figure out what to get:) Each package comes with 5 rifle men in 2
poses, a GMS/P, a SAW, and a command figure, so 8 in total. The power
armour has a SAW and 5 sundry rifle men, 6 in total.
A decent starting force is 2 platoons. We've been finding larger battles to
more interesting but if you're just starting and have to buy both forces 2
platoons aside work. I run 3 squads and a command squad as a platoon, so
you're looking at 8 squads a side. You can get away with less but then you're
getting more into the FMA SG scale and it doesn't flow as well doing actions
by the squad.
Jaime
From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:14 2000
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
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Subject: RE: [sg] Starter Group
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:07:37 -0500
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Yes, I was looking at 25mm.
I, too, like the size of 15mm. But I am in the 'states, and KR (geohex) does
not carry the 15mm. Also, most of the people at
the local game stores play 25+mm figures (mainly Games
Workshops or L5R of which I play neither). And most alien fauna (read
monsters) that I would be able to pick up would be
25+mm.
I could send to the UK or Eureka for 15mm, but I am undecided at this point.
I guess that I should establish a relationship with Eureka as I love
the idea of the 100 club/300 club. OU Gravboard scouts, anyone?
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
-----
> -----Original Message-----
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From: "Peter Mancini" <peter_mancini@msn.com>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: RE: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:13:50 -0500
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> - 'Red Chicken Rising' tactical space rules in the Generic Legions
Hey, stop trying to re-introduce the Phalon thread. We know what you
are up to!
Shower scene? Egad!
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Subject: RE: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
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Those are pretty. Is the main weapon of the last one the "Phunn Gunn"?
Arrrrggggg! Stop, no, Phalon thread bad! Don't send, don't send! Body Strong,
Mind weak!!!
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Brian,
I would suggest that you check out the 15mm line of figures... The detail is
great and you get a whole squad at a time ( 8 normal or 6 power armour) I have
been busy painting mine up (FSE and NSL) and others in the group have the
UNSMC guys. Hopefully over Christmas I will have my web page up with pictures
of the lot of them ( Mind you I am all self taught on the programming side of
things so it might take a bit longer than expected!)