Star Grunts Point System -- the Reason Why -- Retort

3 posts ยท May 30 1997 to May 30 1997

From: DirtSider@a...

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:39:18 -0400

Subject: Star Grunts Point System -- the Reason Why -- Retort

In a message dated 97-05-29 04:26:18 EDT, you write:

<< You are playing the wrong game! If you want to try a campaign with an
entire planet or nation, you should move up to Dirtside!! >>

The background for my campaign is a mercenary universe a la Falkenberg's
Legion, Hammer's Slammers, et al. Different missions require different
forces -- sometimes fleet actions, sometimes mechanized forces,
sometimes commando raids. So the points I was making was that I needed some
way to integrate the equipping of a mercenary force down to the level of
specialist commandos (using Star Grunt).

No, even I'm not dumb enough to try to do a major war campaign at the platoon
level!

<<The only reason we would strive to make a balanced game is so it will be
FUN to play!!!!   Both sides having a chance to pull off victory!!>>

That's exactly what the campaign is about -- having a chance to pull of
a victory! So, in the scenario writing, we "bid" for "jobs", trying to do the
job with the least amount of force. Scenarios are written so that each side
has a reasonably equal chance at pulling off a victory, even though that may
mean entirely different things to opposing players. In fact, it is possible
for both players to pull off a victory in the same game, simply because the
objectives were different. This is exactly what balancing scenarios and forces
is all about.

But, again, I reiterate, I need some way to build the pool of forces from
which players "bid their contracts". I suppose I could do it based on "if you
have the model you can bring it to the fight", but then I'd win by sheer force
of numbers!

<<The point is, as a force commander, you are given a job to do. Your enemy is
given the job of stopping you from completing your objectives. That is the
basis for all scenarios.>>

Sorry, that's just plain wrong. It CAN be true, but not always. Prime
example, at middle echelon, the US Army is terrain-oriented.  Battalion
commands plan missions to take and secure key terrain to support the higher
HQ's mission. The Russian doctrine is totally different. They are
objective-oriented.  They'll happily bypass key terrain, ignoring any
enemy on it, in order to get to their objective. In the meantime, the US
forces are wondering why they're not being attacked (just suppressed). I used
to see that puzzlement all the time when I worked for the Army Command and
General Staff College running battle simulations.

<<Need inspiration? Grab any war history book>>

Not to be belligerent, but I got my start in historical gaming, and I probably
have more years of experience writing balanced, fun scenarios that
you do.  And when I say balanced, I don't mean equal points -- I mean
equal advantages, be it terrain, weather, technology, tactics, command and
control, training, or whatever. The point was, and still is, having some
thread of continuity between games; otherwise there is a great propensity for
the GW mentality of bringing killer forces to battle. When a loss in a
particular game can have a (albeit minor) effect on future games (because the
dead vehicle may not have been recovered), I end up seeing real tactics
working the way they should.

Don't mistake me -- I love Dirt Side, and Star Grunt is nearly as much
fun for me. I lavish as much preparation as possible on every scenario for
each. But I still want a framework to facilitate handling the continuity
thread.

From: Jerry McVicker <gmcvicke@w...>

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:35:45 -0400

Subject: Re: Star Grunts Point System -- the Reason Why -- Retort

> At 10:39 PM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:

We are not talking about real life here General. We are talking about
designing a scenario for a squad level game. I could really care less about
what is happening at the higher echelon and I doubt most grunts on the field
do either. I also doubt that a scenario in Stargrunt, where one force holds a
hill and the other simply marches past to meet up with another force off
board, would be much fun. I was simply providing a simple rule to follow for
designing a balanced scenario. Modern military doctrine has little to do with
this, of course unless you want to write an entire military doctrine for your
fictional forces. In which case I applaud your effort. You are, of course,
correct about the objectivity of different forces, but these guys were just
wanting some guidelines in designing some scenarios.

> <<Need inspiration? Grab any war history book>>

Belligerence not taken. I've been into historical gaming for over ten years.
I've got a Masters in History, one field of specialty is Military History and
I've played Advanced Squad Leader for over eight years. I may have not been in
the military, and lets face it, the military certainly doesn't always make a
person a great tactician, but I've played enough unbalanced ASL scenarios to
realize what is needed to make a good one. Its kind of arrogant to assume you
could write a more "fun" scenario than I, when you know little about me. I
suppose you missed my thread about adjusting the leader loss roll in order to
lower overall leader quality as linked scenarios form a campaign. Not to
mention the loss in manpower and equipment. If you've ever played the old
Squad Leader, you might remember the playing card scenario generator that was
provided...that's what a points system would do. I think the biggest problem
with players in this game is the inability to "choose" what they can take in a
fight. Some of the guys I play with, are (shudder) "GW powergamers". They did
not like SGII, mainly because I choose the forces for them and told them to do
the best they could do. By the way smarty pants, how many points are an Abrams
M1A2 tank, a
U.S.
paratrooper, a Russian conscript and an German Leopard I?   I'm sure the
army assigned points values to these items so they could devise a plan
against them! ;-) Hehehe.

> Don't mistake me -- I love Dirt Side, and Star Grunt is nearly as much
Continuity is just a line of ideas in the mind of the designer. He must be
prepared to take the unit in question to the next scenario or end the campaign
for that unit. You can always start over...unlike a real war.

From: Jerry McVicker <gmcvicke@w...>

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:43:42 -0400

Subject: Re: Star Grunts Point System -- the Reason Why -- Retort

> At 10:39 PM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
Actually, I've tried to talk some of my friends into a FT, DS, SG..type of
thing...they think I'm nuts.