> On Wed, 2002-08-07 at 09:21, Allan Goodall wrote:
Yes, very much so. And that's something that really has struck me in my
project of wanting to run a WWII game in DSII... the work isn't already done
for me. Sure, there are plenty of people who have made a start of
it, but no-one has really gone all out and done it all.
That something that I want to do, time permitting (which it won't for quite
some time, unfortunately. I mean, IMO, DSII and SGII are superior games to
WH40K, but check out this site:
http://members.telocity.com/kpavlick/ww2/ww2intro.htm
in specific:
http://members.telocity.com/kpavlick/ww2/ww2lists.htm
Note how the "work" has been done in converting the forces over into WH40K. If
a substandard <CENSORED> piece of <CENSORED> game like WarHammer 40<CENSORED>K
can get that much work put into making it approachable to historical players,
why can't DSII and SGII?
I'm not knocking the work that HAS been done along those lines, it's good
work. Heck, I've presented some of it to a group of historical
micro-armor players that includes multiple rules designers and the
conversions of tanks into size-classes and the relative strengths of
guns vs. armor stood up to their scrutiny... It's just that the work isn't as
complete and comprehensive as the site I mentioned above.
So... that's what I intend to get started on once I've cleared my
workbench a bit and learned more about WWII. I _intend_ (hey, maybe I
can pave a road *grin*) to begin a project similar to the above site for DSII,
then consequently SGII. I want to create something where a WWII
gamer can grab a set of DSII/SGII rules, a printout of sections of my
project, his collection of models, and then start learning how to use SGII and
DSII to play WWII games.
I just have a whole LOT to learn about WWII... *sigh* I'll need help,
playtesters, critics... etc... I'll try to recruit some local historical
players to my cause... Once I get started, I'll post results and
information on my homepage for this group to maim/spindle/mutilate and
comment on.
This is all headed toward my Uber-goal of running WWII, Moderns and
Sci-fi based games at Origins next year...
(Gaah! I don't know if I'm breaking a big project down into small pieces, or
just letting the contract grow larger. I hope it's the former, as the latter
means it's doomed to fail.)
On 07 Aug 2002 10:36:59 -0400, Flak Magnet
> <flakmagnet@tabletop-battlezone.com> wrote:
> Note how the "work" has been done in converting the forces over into
Note that this is essentially the same thing as is happening in roleplaying.
The dominant game system is being ported over to other "universes". In
roleplaying it's the D20 system (a _Call of Cthulhu_ book came out not
so long ago, and this week they just released the CoC Keeper's pack). In
miniatures it is Warhammer. Warhammer ancients has been out for a while (and
has three supplements!). Warhammer for the English Civil War just came out
recently.
These products (based on the older 3rd Edition of Warhammer) is to be praised.
They make fun, if not stunningly accurate, games, and they introduce players
to historicals. It's a great idea. After all, once you have your historical
army painted up you can always use other game systems.
> It's just that the work
Andy O'Neil did a good job of converting SG2 to WW2, but I don't agree with
some of the changes he made. IMHO he went a little past the "look and feel" of
SG2 in places.
I've done my own conversion of SG2, creating _Hardtack_, rules for the
American Civil War. However, I'm thinking about leaving them as a Stargrunt II
"plug-in", while creating my own set of stand alone rules from what I've
already done. This is the issue with converting a sci-fi/fantasy game to
historicals: there are some things that just don't work right for the
historical situation. I'm going to replace the combat system and other
mechanics in SG2 with my own system. I haven't decided yet if I'll actually
consider publishing them...
Hi Flak Magnet,
I presume you have seen my original article on the subject at
http://www.felixent.force9.co.uk/art26.html ? What more information on
WWII do you need? I don't claim to be an expert, but I have been wargaming
most periods including WWII for over 30 years, so I think I know a bit. I have
successfully played WWII games using the stats as given in the article. Given
the stats there already, it should be fairly easy to generate stats
for any other WWII vehicle - that was the idea. My own preference is for
ETO 1944-45, hence the stats in the article.
If you want to add a lot of "chrome" along the lines of the web pages you
cite, then go ahead. Personally, I find it difficult to remember too many
"special" rules, and I don't think they add a lot to a game anyway, apart from
the frustration when you remember that you should have applied such a rule the
previous turn and you forgot!
A lot of the historical information on the web sites you mention can of course
be lifted straight out (Plagiarism? Me?) as it is not rule system dependent.
Again, I would have thought most historical wargamer's would not have any
difficulty taking a set of rules like DS2 and modifying them to suit WWII, as
often these people know far more about the period than those who don't
normally play it. Besides creating vehicles is half the fun!
BTW, Jon has stated previously that he has no interest in publishing
historical rules.
Hope that helps, Mike
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On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 10:29:36 +0100, "Mike Elliott"
<Mike.Elliott@steria.co.uk> wrote:
> Again, I would have thought most historical wargamer's would not have
Sure, but folks are lazy. Why pick up a sci-fi game and then still have
to do some work to make it playable as a historical game when you can buy a
historical game that's got the work done for you? Then you can set about
dissecting the rules and writing your own version of it to suit the historical
minutae that you've read about. *grin*
The biggest obstacle, though, is the stigma that sci-fi games have with
historical players. I know that SG2 and DS2 can be adapted for historical use,
but it doesn't say so on the cover. If you're a historical player you are not
going to buy DS2 for Russian Front games unless someone convinces you that it
can be used for WW2/Modern games.
As for Jon not doing any historical games, I think the playtest group is doing
a good job keeping Jon "realistic" enough with FMAS that it will be usable as
a historical game (as well as its specialty: sci-fi and fantasy)...
> On Thu, 2002-08-08 at 05:29, Mike Elliott wrote:
Yes I have seen it. It's good. Your information was, in fact, the data
that "stood up to the scrutiny" of the micro-armor group I mentioned.
It will no doubt play a very large part in the overall project I have laid out
for myself. I agree that it ought to be fairly easy to generate stats for
other vehicles. What I meant by the work being "unfinished" is just that...
the troops and vehicles need "fleshing out" before it's a "grab and go" option
for DSII. That's what I want to create, mainly for my own use, but once I've
done that work, I might as well share it.
> If you want to add a lot of "chrome" along the lines of the web pages
I want to add "flesh" (as mentioned above and chrome. I won't add special
rules really. I think modifications to communications and possibly artillery
rules ought to suffice. Nothing specific to any
given troop-type or units... that's stilly, and going away from what
DSII is (at least to me).
> A lot of the historical information on the web sites you mention can
Right, like TO&E's, and the like. That's what I'd like to put together for
DSII and eventually SGII, comprehensive and easy to read. Historically based
TO&E's for WWII forces, as complete as I can manage. Most of the T0&E work
will be done tomorrow, hopefully, as I hope to pick up a Wargamer's TO&E book
from Battle Honors tomorrow. That's the meat of the project, the rules mods to
get a WWII flavor is the easy part.
> Again, I would have thought most historical wargamer's would not have
Nope, no problem at all. I'm just looking at doing it completely (with
help, duh) and sharing the results with some polish/chrome. Why should
everyone have to invent their own wheels? And, as Allan mentioned,
people are lazy - I did make the subject "Spoon Feeding <blah blah>"...
you don't have to spoon feed the do it yourselfer crowd.
Basically, when I decided I wanted to use DSII for WWII gaming, I wished
someone had done all this project I've taken on, kind of wishing I'd been
spoon fed it. It's a case of me thinking "Somebody should..." and then
deciding that I'm that somebody. (Yay me.)
It also serves as an impetus for my research into WWII... I can't very
well produce a well-informed TO&E and design units for DSII without
becoming at least somewhat well-informed myself, now can I?
> BTW, Jon has stated previously that he has no interest in publishing
He doesn't need to... DSII is well-suited with a tweak here or there.
And as Allan also mentioned, FMA ought to be even moreso.
> Hope that helps,
It does. Anything that makes me clearly state or refine the definition, scope
and scale of what I want to do helps.
> Mike
> Allan Goodall wrote:
So given the fact that all wargamers are lazy, and that DS2 doesn't say it can
be used for historical games on the cover, who IS going to convince
them that it can be used for WW2/Modern games? (Incidentally, I am
planning to play some Vietnam games using DS2. Its all helicopters and
infantry so DS2 should work like a dream with virtually no modifications.)
Seems to me the best way of doing this is to run some demo/party games
at shows. Whet their appetite with a game actually being played. Enthuse about
the game to all the punters. When they say "Where can I buy the rules?" Tada!
Produce a copy of DS2 and point them at the nearest GZG stockist.
When they say "But its a sci-fi game!" you reply "But you didn't know
that until I showed you the rulebook!" QED.
You won't need the encyclopedic stats database that Flak Magnet was talking
about creating first, just enough stats so you can play the game at the shows.
Food for thought? Mike
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> On Thu, 2002-08-08 at 11:08, Mike Elliott wrote:
Yes, the closer you get to modern the more readily adaptable DSII is... I
think the main aspects that DSII has that doesn't fit smoothly into WWII is
the ease with which different echelons communicate over distances and how fast
arty arrives.
> Seems to me the best way of doing this is to run some demo/party games
That's great for running a game at a show for an introduction and a starting
point, but what about later? The "punters" grab a set of rules, go home and
realize... "Dang... I have to design all the forces from scratch?" Lacking
that encyclopedia I want to create, I think
you'll find DSII getting set aside for more "out of the box" Micro-Armor
games as far as WWII goes.
My undertaking this project doesn't mean that I'll be holding off on
running/playing any games until I'm finished. On the contrary, I'll
start off with the models I have, flesh out those Nations, then move on from
there as my collection directs and time permits. First thing is to get my own
models on the table using DSII, then I'll worry about the models my buddies
want to bring... then I'll worry about whatever else I missed.
> Food for thought?
<I'd answer directly, but I don't think with my mind full, it's rude...>
On Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:08:57 +0100, "Mike Elliott"
<Mike.Elliott@steria.co.uk> wrote:
> So given the fact that all wargamers are lazy, and that DS2 doesn't say
Folks like you and me who play both sides of the fence (uh,
sci-fi/fantasy
_and_ historicals, I mean! *grin*). The best thing to do is to have your
mods on a piece of paper and hand them out during the game to anyone
interested.
Then those who liked it will maybe by the sci-fi rules to play the game.
> (Incidentally, I am planning
Post your mods on the web or on here, pretty please?
> You won't need the encyclopedic stats database that Flak Magnet was
The only problem with not doing the stats is that often it takes experience
with a game system to know how to change it to get "historical" results. I
couldn't have written _Hardtack_ without playing SG2 for a while first.
Someone who has played DS2 once at a convention might find coming up with
North African desert stats for DS2 in WW2 a bit overwhelming.