> Los wrote:
> > Now, on a CVL, maybe your spares are 20%, on a CVS maybe 30%, and
If you are going to use modern carriers as examples for carrying spares, then
you need to take into account the fact that most modern budgets do not cover
more than 10% for spares or maintenance parts of the existing fleet.
Procurement for extra planes and their parts has been low and stagnant for the
greater part of three decades, the air arms are lucky enough to receive
funding for the planes they ask for, let alone the follow on funds to acquire
spares and extra parts to keep them in the air. One reason for this is that
it looks much more impressive to say you can put up 72 aircraft from a
carrier, not 48 with 24 spares in case the you lose 24. In addition, how far
are you really from getting extra planes on a modern carrier? 12 to 24 hours
probably. Much shorter if there is a friendly airfield nearby. Case in point
would be supplying a carrier in the Persian Gulf, resupply is probably a
matter of minutes away with resupply from Saudi Arabia and so getting
replacement planes would be relatively easy.
FT doesn't quite fall into this model since the fighters have a much shorter
range (i.e. no FTL) than the carriers. I would suspect that you might build
an auxillary carrier as a storage area for ready fighters - it would be
able to launch something like one squadron a turn but be able to carry
something like
6 squadrons. The space would be 2/3 that of normal to reflect that the
carrier is sacrificing maintenance capability for added storage space and this
would
have to be reflected in the rules somehow - perhaps the fighters
maintained at a level where they can be flown but not necessarily "combat
ready" with stores or armed weapons.
--Binhan
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Binhan Lin wrote:
<big snip>
> If you are going to use modern carriers as examples for carrying
Lets go back a few years and look at WW2, the US fleet was well out of
aircraft range most of the time. To resupplie the main carriers, they use
"Jeep Carriers" or auxillary carriers. If I rember correctly they looked like
transport with dozen or so fighters stored on a open deck. These ships travled
with the main support feet, well behind the main body. After a battle they
would move up and unload the fighter. I recall seeing pixs of them moving the
planes by crane.
SA
> Binhan Lin wrote:
> it looks much more impressive to say you can put up 72 aircraft from a
I don't think naval policy is formulated with that kind of logic. You can
project more combat power with 72 AC than 48. If I have a job that needs a
bigger presence, than you are uncecessarily committing more resources to the
operational area and more risk. It takes a shitload of planes to suport even a
small strike against a defended targtet. Tankers, wild weasel, strike escort,
BARCAP, reception escort, SAR and then oh yeah, the actual mud movers. blah
blah.
> FT doesn't quite fall into this model since the fighters have a much
Here's what I been thinking. You have four levels of maintenence and
logistical support:
1. Level One: Your onboard grease monkeys and wrenches (Known in NAC parlance
as "dash ten") This is support that can be handled on the ship itself.
replenishment that the ship undertakes on it's won. A good example is Tom's
spare fighter bay example. Also damage to ships that can be repair (not
emergency repair but fixed good as new) by the crews themselves given what
resources they have on hand.
2.Level Two. The Fleet Underway Replenishment Vessel (FURV or "dash twenty"
maint.) This is a combat capable ship, maybe a few level one beams and PDS,
armored or shielded that acocompanies combat units. Similar to undersea
replenishment ships in today's navies with carrier or surface action groups. I
would reflect the carrying capacity by giving it a bay of some certainisze
then figuring out the math on how much that bay holds. For FT purposes we're
talking spare fighters, SMLs and Capital missiles (Am I forgetting any other
FT expendables?) In real life add POL power core fuel rods (or whatever),
food, water spare parts whatever. The ships have the abiility to replenish
underway
using autonmatic reloaders. So say for instance you culd have two DD/Ms
pull up amdiships, dock, and have the reloaded replenish the missles magazines
etc. The quuestion is how many turns to reload? Also carries major repair
parts like spare engines for fighters, Main Beam armament capacitors and
diodes, etc.
3. Level Three: Fleet Trains (Dash three)This is a convoy of supply ships with
specially constructed dry dock ships for major repairs. Yet larger stocks of
weapons supplies, spare fighters, etc.
4. Level Four: Depot Maintenace (dash four) This is major repais conducted at
fleet bases and orbital facilities. Had the ass end blown off you ship? Tow it
home.
Lets use the recent action at Rot Hafen for example. As soon as the KraVak
warp out the ships establish local security protocols. Crews everywhere are
doing dash ten stuff. Then in ones or twos while the rest remain on GQ or
conduct SAR, they pull up to the FURV and replenish SML magazines. The CVs
pull up and draw any spares they can. As soon as 1st CAF commander has his
available figters rearmed and his MSLs (and capitals) reloaded, then he can
breath again. The FURVS continue to hang around and now dispense stuff like
modular armor replacement units to any ship that can until the FURV runs out.
A courier drone or messenger is sent to YANKEE STATION (holding point for the
Fleet trains and their escort) telling them to come on in Rot Hafen is secure.
They arrive. The first thing that Cmdr 1st CAF does is offload casualties and
replenish his FURVs. Plus get as many fighters out of cold storage as possible
and get them up to speed. The Fleet train has Tugs, so it drags off the
crippled KRS Friedrich. This SD is a couple damage boxes shy of dead and has
no power core. Well that thing is on it's way back to te fleet base at Nue
Salzburg. ALso major end ite repait is conducted where possible. Maybe a whole
engine on a DD is replaced, whatever. Maybe a ship with major armor damage as
well as a PDS and two beams out can have that repaired byeth Fleet train. etc
etc.
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> You've said this before about people being unable to live tightly
1. Sub crews are very select. Not everyone is cut out to be a submariner. I
know a number of them. They are...different. 2. A sub can surface. Going for a
spacewalk may be the equivalent, but it lacks sounds, gravity, and air against
your face. Carrier crew
can get topside (or out to the big openings on the maintenance/hangar
deck) pretty easily from what I've heard (not often, but often
enough). A carrier is like a city (lots of waste - in sense - space -
but they can afford it). Sure its cramped. But it pales by comparison to how
cramped some attack subs are. US subs have relatively large amounts of space
(especially the boomers) internally. Some of the old diesels (a la Das Boot)
are damn small. And the sub life really has high stress (more incidents of
breakdowns and stuff). You could design your space navy around this premise.
But in a world where troops are your value (highly trained) and thrust is
cheap (relative to today), then build your ships the minimum size required for
military operations WITHOUT side effects. And even the sub isn't fully self
contained as a spaceship (or at least, the diesels aren't
- the nukes may just be but they are palatial compared with the
diesels). And a carrier does not have to carry LS for its crew of 5000 like a
space carrier will. My point was that the ratio of
gear/personnel will tilt in favor of gear in the future in space
because of the increased overhead (relative to anything today) of
maintaining men and women in space - and the
miniaturization/sophistication of tech.
> Nor must we suppose that every fleet operation will take six months.
The scenario I'm thinking is carrier operations along contested borders or
behind enemy lines in exploitation or attack scenarios. This would be times
which could be six months or longer without pit stops (depending on how long
you think travel takes). I think creeping up on enemy locales is slow.
> Think about it. The CVN Enterpise carriues 72 aircraft. Look how huge
Okay, why is that a problem? Because you have to push it through a resisting
medium (and keep it afloat). In space, things float without reference to
bouyancy. And thrust is an issue, but I'm assuming the mass of railguns,
antimatter plants, aligned superdense unobtainium armour and such is all very
heavy, so the palty weight of even 50 extra fighters (given you don't need
extra crew, extra maintenance gear, etc. is not required because these are
replacement spares) isn't a big issue. Space might be a bit of a concern. But
maybe a
packed fighter only takes 1/3rd the space of an unpacked one. And
maybe if we talk about a fighter bay as including launch/rearm
equipment, the figure is more like 1/4 or 1/5th. If I was a carrier
commander and could devote 2 boxes to getting 10 replacement spares, I'd sure
think about it.
> I agree that you could build the mass to carry these into the ship. I
I guess most naval design is balance. You don't have to account for a lot of
systems in the GZG FB case (or at least it isn't anywwhere near as complex as
some ship design schemes). I figure ready spares don't take a lot of space or
weight. If you figure they do, relative to ready fighters with launch bays,
maintenance bays, repair and reload crews, etc. then you wouldn't have them.
If they were small enough, they offer some important options.
Or more simulator space so not as many crew get shot down in
> the first place so we don't have to repalce their birds!
Now I'd think there should be one cockpit sim for every 4 pilots but that
doesn't take a lot of space either (compared to total ship size). Could be
fold down units that are easy small storage units.
Fleets would
> be accompanied by replenishment vessles anyway. SO the fleet train is
True. I think deep strike vessels may well try to use non ammo consumptive
weapons such as beam batteries. Main Wall of Battle forces will obviously need
replenishment.
> Of course you might special build patrol carriers for extended
This is (I think) really where I was going. I'm thinking deep penetration
raiders (CVS by my def'n). High speed, big fuel capacity, overloaded on spares
for key systems, operate either as deep strike, cutoff, or commerce raiders.
> How can you not be tied to your fleet train? Hit and ruun operations I
Sorry, that was part of my point about wanting more logistics organic to your
carrier.
> You Carriers are already tied to escorts and otehr ships?
A CVS in SFB sometimes had two very fast, high endurance CE (Aegis) with it,
but it was more than capable of self defence, packing the firepower of a light
cruiser. It was a deep strike carrier capable of operating without escorts. It
would be killed by a CVs fighter groups, or massed enemy fleets, but it could
run fast, launch a fair
number of fighters, and operate with an almost non-existent logistics
chain. Pretty hand, I thought.
Add
> armed replenishment ships. That what the US navy does. They
Hmmm. I'd arm them, but they are still big targets.
> Just stating the rules as written in Full Thrust. Not real life. It
True, and a turn has no set duration. I was just saying with 15 min turns,
this is a LONG time.
Tom.
/************************************************
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Well, you may suggest these are on replenishment vessels. But I have
Very much agreed about space being at a premium...
You've said this before about people being unable to live tightly packed in
ships, etc. I think you mentioned something about how crews are usually at sea
for only about two weeks or so. (Trying to remeber back a month) In the US
navy, Trident Sub crew go under for six months, no surfacing for air, shore
leave or anything. (This may have recenty changed to 90 with the reduction in
cold war stuff etc.) It's not unusual for Carrier crews to be at sea for up to
six months or longer in times of crisis.. And many of them seldom get a chance
to see the light of day. There's no gawking allowed on carrier decks etc.
These are military crews not elemantary school kids or old ladies. While it is
important to allow for crew comfort, humans can live and function in tight
quarters for months at time if necessary. They've been doing it forever.
Nor must we suppose that every fleet operation will take six months. There are
plenty of planets to stop in at here or there for shore leave or whatever.
> Now, on a CVL, maybe your spares are 20%, on a CVS maybe 30%, and
Think about it. The CVN Enterpise carriues 72 aircraft. Look how huge the mass
is on that ship already jsut with everything you need, power, maintenace bays,
ordnace storage etc etc just to keep those up. now you want to lug around
another 36 fighters? That's a huge commttment in Mass and space.
I agree that you could build the mass to carry these into the ship. I disagree
that they are so designed now. I also don't feel that valuable space on fleet
carriers are best tied up carrying spares. I'd rather be able to sortie more
FGs is that was the case Or more crew space, or more PDS etc. Or more
simulator space so not as many crew get shot down in
the first place so we don't have to repalce their birds! Fleets would
be accompanied by replenishment vessles anyway. SO the fleet train is right
with you in teh fight, though it can hang back a bit. (Hell I fired off every
SML I had in the fleet in just 45 minutes).
Of course you might special build patrol carriers for extended operations
beyond the rim etc. They may carry more spare fighters...
> But that makes you dependent on your fleet train. Not good for CVS
How can you not be tied to your fleet train? Hit and ruun operations I can
see. But extended combat operations use up resoruces at an alarming rate. You
Carriers are already tied to escorts and otehr ships? Add armed replenishment
ships. That what the US navy does. They replenishment ships are right there
with the rest of the SAGs and CAGs.
> 45 minutes? If one is using 15 minute turns, I'd say that is an awful
Just stating the rules as written in Full Thrust. Not real life. It takes
three turns to rearm fighters and get them out the door again....
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
> 1. Sub crews are very select. Not everyone is cut out to be a
As are spaceship crews
> . A sub can surface. Going for a spacewalk may be the equivalent,
Do you think on the rare occasion when a sub surfaces (BTW missile subs NEVER
surface, attack subs surface when they are coming into port and ging out) That
crew members are allowed to even go topside? I too have a lot of friends that
are sunbmariners and live near Groton which is one of the biggest sub base
around. When subs are surfaced there's a few (4 or 5) crewmembers up there,
it's not time for the crew to get out there and sunbathe. The majority of the
crew will not see the sun again until the tour is over.
> roops are your value (highly trained) and thrust is cheap (relative
I aboslutely agree. But I think you undersetimate the endurance ability of
crews. OK I'll leave a few rooms open for a holodeck. BTW Diesel boats? You
mean some navies still grub around in those things? <grin>
> - the nukes may just be but they are palatial compared with the
Hopefully we won't need 5000 guys to run a carrier! (Half of them are busy
cleaning out shitters <g>)
> Okay, why is that a problem? Because you have to push it through a
Whoa whoa obviously physical size and weight don't matter. It's the cost.
These materials don't grow on trees.
> A CVS in SFB sometimes had two very fast, high endurance CE (Aegis)
NSL FIGHTER CARRIERs should be up your alley then. They pack the punch of
dreanoughts (almost) as well as 6 FGs. Shitty thrust though (2).
> Hmmm. I'd arm them, but they are still big targets.
They are.
----------
From: Los
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 3:11 PM
To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Space carrier fighter philosphyRe: ADLER TAG AAR
SNIP
Here's what I been thinking. You have four levels of maintenence and
logistical support:
1. Level One: Your onboard grease monkeys and wrenches (Known in NAC parlance
as "dash ten") Snip 2.Level Two. The Fleet Underway Replenishment Vessel (FURV
or "dash twenty" maint.) Snip 3. Level Three: Fleet Trains (Dash three) Snip
4. Level Four: Depot Maintenace (dash four) Snip You forgot Level 5 (Duct Tape
and Bailing Wire) or "Dash it
all!"
Michael Brown
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> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Steven Arrowsmith wrote:
> Lets go back a few years and look at WW2, the US fleet was well out of
CVEs or escort carriers were called jeep carriers, but they were quite capable
of combat operations on their own.
> These
Well, their mission *was* to protect the supply convoys.
> After
That you can do with a plain old freighter.
Obviously, you could (and they did) resupply from CVEs, but those ships were
not built expressly for the purpose.
> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Binhan Lin wrote:
a sort of 'barracks carrier', hanging about with your supply train or
rear-area fleets, primarily as a storage / repair / recuperation point,
but also as a defence for the supply train.
Tom
Los spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Thomas Barclay wrote:
As select? I don't know. Seems to me there are more spaceships than subs and
more people committed to that (proportionately, but that is a guess) than to
the subs today. But YMMV.
> > . A sub can surface. Going for a spacewalk may be the equivalent,
And yet I've heard tales of half the crews getting ondeck when running surface
in the tropics. I suspect it depends on the mission, but you are right that
some guys spend a long time underwater. But that takes its toll mentally and
physically. Not what you'd necessarily WANT your troops to experience if you
could design around it.
> > roops are your value (highly trained) and thrust is cheap (relative
When they work. (sigh)
> > - the nukes may just be but they are palatial compared with the
Even in the future, a rotten job will be a rotten job. I assume you may need
less people (although carriers will be intensive). Do the FB designs back this
up? Whats the crew of a carrier? of a BB?
> Whoa whoa obviously physical size and weight don't matter. It's the
Given.
> NSL FIGHTER CARRIERs should be up your alley then. They pack the punch
The speed is more important than the armament. I'd want T4 if I'm behind enemy
lines (6 if I could get it).
/************************************************
> At 18:00 21/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
After
> a battle they would move up and unload the fighter. I recall seeing
IIRC during WWII the Brits had carriers running back and forth doing aircraft
resupply runs to Malta. The carrier would come within aircraft range of the
island and fly off its aircraft so Malta got new planes and new pilots. Also
the Brits had one carrier (HMS Unicorn I think) that spent
its war carrer (its very late/early and Ive been to the pub) simply
running aircraft from Britian to carriers and bases in the pacific. I'm not
sure about someone elses post about jeep carriers but I do know that this is
exactly what USS Langley was doing for island bases when she was sunk by the
Japanese early in the war. In short, wartime carriers operate with a minimum
of spares and rely on
"fly-offs" of supporting escort carrriers in the fleet train.
Tony. twilko@ozemail.com.au
> SA