Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

13 posts · Feb 16 2001 to Feb 20 2001

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:27 +0100

Subject: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

Scattered thinking during bus journeys to work:

Resonance Field Generator [Noam Izenberg]
[OO: Plain weird. Inspired by the SFB ESG, or something?]

FTL Missile (aka "Emergence Missile", "Hyperspace Concussion Missile") Damage
is exactly as for ships entering the board form FTL in the same
section: All ships/objects in 6" radius around actual point of
emergence takes 1d6 damage (1-5 damage = roll, 6 damage =6*1d6). Damage
is applied as with P-torps. Fighters may escape blast radius by using
reaction move, but will be destroyed if caught within.
[OO: PSB question: How do the fighters know where/when the missile will
emerge? *Are* fighters affected by ships entering/leaving hyperspace -
the FT2 rules aren't entirely clear on this?]

Globular Shield [Bif Smith] (GZG-L 1-Feb-2001)
[OO: Conceptually similar to the Phalon vapour glands, but the Globular
Shield gets better the more of it you can carry (ie., the bigger your own ship
is). Still, considering its size and penalties it probably isn't too
much of a problem - eg., replacing the normal screens on a
Komarov-class SDN with Globular Shields gives the Komarov 7 "free" DP
per turn - equivalent to the average damage its normal screens save
from 21 beam dice - but only if the ship doesn't maneuver or fire. All
in all I'd say this is a Kerr-style system: potentially very powerful,
but so loaded-down with restrictions that it becomes virtually
useless.]

Interceptors (Earth Alliance) [Sean Penn's B5 Conversion]
[OO: Way unbalanced, for the same reason the fixed-Mass FT2 screens
were unbalanced: Since the Interceptors are fixed-Mass, they becomes a
very cheap way of providing level-2 screens for large ships (and one
which allows for much improved multiple redundancy as well). Eg., an
ESU Komarov could replace its lvl-2 screens (Mass 22, Cost 66) with 4
Interceptors (Mass 8, Cost 40), saving 14 Mass to carry extra weapons etc.
Sure, it'll cost a bit more, but the extra cost is nowhere close to how much
more powerful it becomes with another 14 Mass of weapons.
Also, the PSB given seems to have little relevance for B5 - the Pulse
Cannon the EFSB Interceptors defend against in the B5 universe fire
relatively slow-moving plasma blobs, and the B5 Interceptors shoot down
those blobs with smaller plasma blobs of its own. No "energy shield"
involved.]

Jammer (Minbari) [Sean Penn's B5 Conversion]
[OO: Cost = Massx20... hm.

Massacred table follows:

Probability to get a shot off for varying numbers of FCSs: #FCS Range 1 2 3 4
5 Avg: Surv. Value: boost:
0-6     100%    100%    100%    100%    100%    100%    0       0
6-12    67%     89%     96%     99%     100%    84%     19%     2xMass
12-24   50%     75%     88%     94%     97%     71%     41%     6xMass
24-36   33%     56%     70%     80%     87%     54%     86%     15xMass
> 36 17% 31% 42% 52% 60% 31% 226% 38xMass

Note: The "average". is weighted by the percentage of the ships in my design
archive which have that number of FCSs (on the 9th of February, 2001). The
"Survivability boost" is roughly "how much more firepower does the enemy need
to throw at the ship to kill it", though in this
case it only applies fully if the enemy has no non-jamming targets to
shoot at - otherwise he can shoot at some other target instead. The
"Value" is a rough calculation of how good the system is at that range
(screens = 3xMass).

Hm... yes, 20xMass could work, or could be a bit high (as usual it's better if
the cost is too high than if it is too low!). A ship with
jammers and extreme-range weapons is dangerous if it has enough engines
to keep the range open, but so is *any* fast ship with extreme-range
weapons simply because they're so difficult to catch. Inside range 36 (where
considerably more weapons are able to shoot at it) 20xMass would seem to make
it somewhat overpriced, except that I assume that you need
to *dedicate* FCSs to the intended target (ie., if you fail the lock-on
roll you don't get to use that FCS to engage another target). The
jammer-equipped fleet needs to keep the range open at all costs though!
And, of course, this is another system which favours large ships (which can
carry multiple FCSs)...

What does it do to missiles etc.? (I assume that missiles can't be jammed
since they only aquire targets within 6mu anyway.) How does it
interact with enhanced/superior sensors?]

Parasite Fighter Rack [Mike Wikan]
[OO: The "Parasite racks may be used on civilian transports" and "a
parasite rack may launch at any time" bits are irrelevant in FBx, since *any*
ship can have fighter bays and *any* ship can launch all its
fighters in one turn. Balance-wise, I dunno... Put it like this: I can
put an entire fighter squadron on a single TMF 4 scout. Yes, it is
expensive - but it is considerably *less* expensive (about 75% the
cost) of a normally bay-carried fighter squadron. The proposal says
nothing about rearming and reorganizing fighters (FB2 rules), but IMO the rack
shouldn't be able to do either during combat (or else it should take very much
longer than for bays).]

Targeting Lidar[Noam Izenberg]
[OO: Looks interesting. Why "each full 10" of range" instead of the
normal 12mu bands? Or, if you want to include the various P-torps, use
each *begun* 12mu band (so a PT can benefit from 3 TLs)? Also, since this is a
piece of targetting electronics I think it should cost 4 just
like FCSs - for simplicity only, not really based on balance
considerations.]

Structural Analyzer [Andrew Ayres] (GZG-L 3-Feb-01)
[OO: Too expensive? If the target has no armour it improves the damage
from all beam-style weapons by 17%... 5 Mass/25 pts is certainly a bit
much for a DD, but it is quite a bargain for a SDN.

The description is incomplete. What does "System penetrates 1 layer of armour.
Rest of damage is done straight to ship." mean? The system itself doesn't
inflict any damage whatever...?]

Needle Pod (G) [Nick Garbett] (via e-mail)
[OO: This Needle Pod is *extremely* powerful. Also, a Mass-1 critter
being able to pin-point target an unlimited number of target
ships/systems, but only one system on each one? Why not allow it to
target every system on a single target instead - that's the same number
of target systems, and just as unbalanced?]

Reenforced hull  - Bif Smith and Charles Taylor
[OO: Thought I had commented this on-list, but appearently not :-/
Charles is quite right in that you can achieve almost exactly the same
effect BIF aims for (except vs K-guns) simply by replacing some of the
hull boxes by armour; similarly you can spend the 49 points BIF spent
on some 11-13 extra hull and armour boxes, making the first row
"effectively" 16 boxes long and the other rows 11-12 boxes each.

Another problem with BIF's suggestion is that it has very different effects on
larger or smaller ships. His example ship (40 hull boxes)
looks like a TMF 120-130 BB (transformed a 10/10/10/10 hull box layout
to 16/9/8/7), but if you do the same thing on the ESU Komarov it'll
cost 97 pts and transform it from 22/22/22/22 to 28/21/20/19, (a
relatively much smaller effect but at twice the cost). On a small ship the
effect is much bigger instead; do the same operation on the NAC
Huron and it goes from 4/4/4/3 to 10/3/2/0 - the last row disappears
entirely, and the first row becomes 2.5 times as long! - but it only
costs 26 points.

Charles's suggestion works... sort of, but his guesses at points costs are off
by about 100% in both cases: getting 2 hull boxes per Mass is
worth 6-7xMass, while getting 1 box per 2 Mass is worth 0xMass
(actually it is worth even less, ie. *less* than 0 pts per box, but I'm not
too keen on negative points costs...).

I'm still playtesting my "variable number of hull rows" idea, but so far it
looks reasonable:

Instead of giving all ships 4 rows of hull boxes, they can be designed with 3,
4 or 5 rows. Apart from the different number of hull rows, the hull boxes are
distributed between the rows as per the standard FBx
rule. Thresholds are taken as normal (ie. systems are damaged on 6+
after the 1st row, 5+ after the 2nd, 4+ after the 3rd, and 3+ after the
4th). The costs for these hulls are:

3 rows of hull boxes - cost 3xMass.
4 rows of hull boxes (FB standard) - cost 2xMass.
5 rows of hull boxes - cost 1.5xMass

I'm not too happy with the fractional points costs for the 5-row hulls,
but
1xMass is definitely too low :-( And no, I don't have any figures for
1, 2
or 6 hull rows :-/]

*Targeting beacon
[OO: Interesting. No idea if it is *balanced*, but it looks like a kewl
idea
<g>. PSB-wise DCPs should have a chance to remove them though.]

BFG Lances: "stranger"
[OO: Lots of comments posted on the mailing list]

Skunk Works Weapon Tech [You've seen most of these comments before <g>]

Raking fire
[OO: What does "+1 to hit" mean for weapons which don't have a to-hit
roll? +1 do the beam die (ie., inflict 1 point on rolls of 3-6? This is
always worse than standard beam fire against level-0 and -1 screens
(unless the target has only 1 damage point left and you know it, which isn't
that common), and is always better than standard beam fire
against level-2 screens. Since it has no penalty associated with it,
its only real effect is to reduce the value of every lvl-2 screen in
the game. Oh, OK, you get a better chance to kill BJs with a single hull box
with a single shot too...]

Spread [Still in Active Playtesting] - for Torps, SMs. + 1 to hit (or
SMs
that hit), reduce damage by 1/3 (round down).
[OO: How do you "spread" a single SM submunition...? The description
suggests that you're doing just that since its damage is reduced!]

Focused Fire [Still in Active Playtesting] - Group multiple batteries
(any type) or other groups of like weapons under a single die roll: roll one
die, determine its damage, and multiply with the number of dice grouped
together. Reroll die follows same pattern. Can use with rake.
[OO: No effect on average damage, but makes "extreme" results (in both
directions) far more common than normal.]

Ortillery Anti-ship mode - Ortillery systems can be fired against ships
in a limited fashion. The precision beam batteries, munitions, and particle
canons are focused for very short range, atmosphere-piercing attacks,
and their open-space effects reflect this. Range is 6" in the 180
degree front arc. Damage is 2 beam dice, ignore screens.
[OO: Should be a OK. The main value of Ortillery is in ground/space
interface games anyway.]

Programmable PDS Modes
Programmable modes can have a severe impact on one-off scenarios.
[OO: Not only *can*; they *do* have a severe impact on one-off
scenarios. They essentially have to be priced to reflect their best
performance, not their average one.]

Meson Flechette
[OO: OK. Though given the recent "Meson Gun" discussion, the name might
be a bit confusing <g>]

Weak Arcs
[OO: Sounds very complex, and is also rather vaguely defined.]

Planetary Defense Missile (PDM)
[OO: Sounds relatively easy to take out with massed fighters, but could
work. More of a strategic weapon than a tactical one though.]

Dedicated FireCon
[OO: *Seriously* unbalanced. Improves already-long-ranged weapons
vastly more (for a fixed Mass) than short-ranged weapons. The
Targetting Lidar is a similar concept, but much better balanced - use
that instead!]

Gravitic Shields
[OO: See my comments to Brendan Robertson's K-shields.]

Evasive Maneuvers -
[OO: The first notice you have that you're being targetted may well be
the beams burning through your hull. Might work against sublight
weapons - missiles, K-guns, P-torps etc., but not against light-speed
ones.]

Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port then
starboard (or opposite).
[OO: Recommended. Should go into FT3 or FB3 (whichever comes first),
provided I can find a big enough club to bash Jon over the head with
<g>]

Starburst Attack
[OO: With the fighter re-arming rule in FB2, this has gone from
somewhat unbalanced to very unbalanced. Spending excessive amounts of
EPs is no longer a serious penalty - heck, on several occasions my KV
fighters have gone Ro'Kah, rearmed, returned to the fray, gone mad
*again*, rearmed *again*, and had time for a third attack - and that in
battles 7-8 turns in length. If KV fighters can rearm this often, human
fighters can do it too.

Besides, it effectively gives non-KV fighters the same benefits as
those of going Ro'Kah, but without the restrictions - the humans can do
it at any time rather than when the dice force them, and they only pay 3 EP
rather than all remaining EP.]

Design Tech
Miniaturization - (From FT list) Systems take ½ mass and cost 3x as
much.
Maximalization - Systems take 2x mass and cost 1/2 as much.
[OO: Both should be OK. Note that "cost X as much" means that the
POINTS COST is X times that of the normal system, not that the
COST/MASS is X times that of the normal system. Example: a system which
normally is Mass 2, Cost 3xMass = 3x2 = 6 will be Mass 1, Cost 6x3 = 18
(not (3x3)x1 = 9) if miniaturized and Mass 4, cost 6/2 = 3 (not (3/2)x4
= 6) if "maximalized"]

Later,

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:35:03 +0100

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> Scattered thinking during bus journeys to work:

<Ka-snip>

Bother. That was supposed to go to Noam, not to the list.

Ah well... read Noam's tech archive and Skunk Works web pages for the
systems and rules I commented :-/

Oerjan Ohlson oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer. What you get out of it, depends on what you put into
it."
- Hen3ry

> Resonance Field Generator [Noam Izenberg]
Damage
> is applied as with P-torps. Fighters may escape blast radius by using
All
> in all I'd say this is a Kerr-style system: potentially very

From: Charles Taylor <charles.taylor@c...>

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:38:39 GMT

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

In message <200102162052.VAA07061@d1o902.telia.com>
> "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:

> Scattered thinking during bus journeys to work:
[snip]
> Charles's suggestion works... sort of, but his guesses at points costs

Arrgh! another maths failure!
> I'm still playtesting my "variable number of hull rows" idea, but so
Hmm.. that looks promising - reminds me of the Earth Force Sourcebook.
> *Targeting beacon

I had my own idea bout raking fire - but I'm not convinced it works:
Applies to Beam type attacks only. Effect: All normal thresholds caused by
raking fire are 1 level worse
than normal (Threshold (6) becomes Threshold (5+), etc, Threshold (4+)
is unaltered) All Core Thresholds are 1 level better (ie. no check for rows
1&2, row 3 calls for a Threshold (6) check)
Screens and armour apply to all re-rolls, as well as the initial attack.

PSB - 'strafing' the enemy ship gives an improved chance of hitting a
surface feature, at a cost of reduced penetration.

Cons: well, the Giant Glaring one to me is the canny player who mixes
standard with raking fire - ie. peel of the armour and most of row 1
with standard hits, then throw in a fewraking attackes so the threshold will
be much nastier.

In general, I think this may be a good example of why we don't have
things like raking, sustained, etc. fire modes in Full Thrust :-)

I came up with a similar (reversed) mechanic for those 'drill thin holes
through ship beams' from Starfire that keep showing up in this
list :-)
> [quoted text omitted]
[snip]
> Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port then
Ow!
> Starburst Attack

I think this should be a special (expensive) fighter type - say a
submunition fighter - carrys 3 small submunitions packs (1 beam dice
each, range 6 mu), can use them 1 at a time or all at one, the latter
consumes all remaning cef - have same effects against ships and fighters
- as standard SMP fighters have no other weapons? - cost - dunno? - more
than standard fighter I think.

> Besides, it effectively gives non-KV fighters the same benefits as

From: stranger <stranger@c...>

Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:46:12 -0500

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> What does it do to missiles etc.? (I assume that missiles can't be

I would hope that they do affect them. I would imagine that the affect on the
missiles homing systems would be the same as on Fire Control Systems.

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:47:15 +0100

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> stranger wrote:

> What does it do to missiles etc.? (I assume that missiles can't be

(This was a comment to Sam Penn's "Minbari Jammer", one of the gadgets
displayed on Noam's weapon archive page.)

> I would hope that they do affect them. I would imagine that the

That's exactly the problem. If you look at the Jammer rule, you'll find
that enemy FCSs within 6mu get a target lock *automatically* - you have
to be more than 6mu away from the enemy in order to get any benefit from your
Jammer.

Which means that if missiles are affected just like FCSs, they get an
automatic target lock if they're within 6mu of the ship... and they have to be
within 6mu of the ship to get a target lock *anyway*, so according to the rule
as written they're completely unaffected by the jammer.

Thus my question, since I too think a jammer which doesn't affect missiles
looks kind of strange <g>

Regards,

From: stranger <stranger@c...>

Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:48:44 -0500

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> >I would hope that they do affect them. I would imagine that the

I'd forgotten that part of the rule. To be honest, I don't agree with it,
since it never seemed to work that way in Babylon 5.

However I do see argument for MANNED weapons to be able to engage within a
certain distance since they can physically see the target. Since 6MU seems to
be the magic number for fighter squadrons to engage, I'd go with that.

George

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:08:00 +0100

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> Charles Taylor wrote:

> Charles's suggestion works... sort of, but his guesses at points

Well, you did indicate that your suggested figures were initial guesses
only :-) Took me quite a while to work them out too, but I had a 2-year
head start <g>

> I'm still playtesting my "variable number of hull rows" idea, but so

[snip]

> Hmm.. that looks promising - reminds me of the Earth Force

That's where I got the idea from, yes. Unfortunately the 2-row hulls
don't work out well :-(

> Raking fire

[snip my comments to Noam's Skunk Works "raking fire" version]

> I had my own idea bout raking fire - but I'm not convinced it works:
[snip]
> Cons: well, the Giant Glaring one to me is the canny player who mixes

<g> Glad you saw it yourself so I didn't have to :-)

> Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port then

That's why I'll need a club - I don't want to hurt my hands, after all!

...oh, you meant that *Jon* might get hurt? Considering that he has survived
being aquainted with Mary Gentle for God knows how long, I
don't think he'll take any lasting harm ;-)

> Starburst Attack

Somehow simply using Torpedo fighters sounds easier :-/

Later,

From: Charles Taylor <charles.taylor@c...>

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:39:54 GMT

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

In message <200102192028.VAA17774@d1o960.telia.com>
> "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com> wrote:

> Charles Taylor wrote:

Well, that would help :-)
> >>I'm still playtesting my "variable number of hull rows" idea, but so

I can imagine, but not as bad as 1-row hulls :-) (thresholds - what are
they?)
> >>Raking fire
[snip raking fire]
> >

Well, I remember some of the 'mechanic' based tactics in SFB - and I
only ever played that twice! On first sight, things like raking, sustained
fire etc. look like they
may ad a bit of tactics & atmosphere - but they are very probably not
worth the effort - but thats probably not going to stop anyone :-)

> >>Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port then

Yes, I think the side-slip rule is a very common house rule - popped up
in one of the first games I played.
> >

Yes, but we don't want him out of commission too long - or else who will
make the figures/write the books/etc.?
> >>Starburst Attack

Yup, but SMP fighters can use their SMPs on other fighters - of cause
these are probably a 'genre' system (specifically anime).
> Later,

From: Ground Zero Games <jon@g...>

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:55:44 +0000

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

[big snip]
> Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port then

OK, OK! I DON'T have a problem with this! Just remind me when we start getting
things together for the next book.....
> Ow!

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:43:57 -0500

Subject: RE: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

From: Ground Zero Games jon@gzg.com

> ...oh, you meant that *Jon* might get hurt? Considering that he has

> But I've never been stupid enough to let her take a swing at me with

> Jon (GZG)

Just whips?

From: Ground Zero Games <jon@g...>

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:50:41 +0000

Subject: RE: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> From: Ground Zero Games jon@gzg.com

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:06:07 +0100

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> Jon T. wrote:

> Side-Slip - Common house rule - allows 2+ point turn to be port

Good <G> Ah, it's nice to see the NBS tactics work on *someone* on this
list...

> Just remind me when we start getting things together for the next

Will do :-)

> Ow!

Hm? She posted some comments indicating the opposite during the early FMA
discussions... though she never said if she actually managed to hit
;-) ;-) ;-)

Later,

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:08:38 +0100

Subject: Re: Some more comments to the WeapDef archive

> Jon T. wrote:

> ...oh, you meant that *Jon* might get hurt? Considering that he has

Well, reading "Grunts" after seeing some of your own comments of recieving
whippings from her over the gaming table gives certain
unescapable conclusions ;-)

Later,