Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

12 posts ยท Oct 6 1998 to Oct 12 1998

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:57:41 -0500

Subject: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

Now, perhaps I'm walking in others footsteps here... I dimly recall seeing
something about other GMS types, but can't for the life of me find it in
either my own mail or the archives....

Most conventional GMS in the books are 'standard' GMS by which I assume a
state of the art shaped charge or HEAT style of warhead. I assume the warhead
is compact, fast, and guided by a whole range of sensors in the missile (hence
why GMS systems can fire both normal
and multi-role GMS from the same launcher). But that leaves a number
of interesting options.

Overhead-Attack (OA) GMS
This type of guided missile (either a Multi-role or Standard) GMS
takes advantage of the fact that armour designers tend to armour the front and
sides of most armoured vehicles more heavily than the top or rear (and in the
case of most vehicles that don't fly, the bottom). This is usually sound
design strategy as this helps to counter direct fire ordinance. But, it
doesn't do much good against an OA GMS attack. The effect of an OA GMS is to
strike the (usually) weaker top armour of a vehicle instead of the front or
sides. If you track the armour values of different sides separately, just use
the value for top armour. If not, use half (round down) of the armour
value for the front armour. OA GMS is available in GMS/H, GMS/L, and
GMS/P but should be (in a costed scenario) very expensive.

Follow-On (FO) GMS
The Follow-On GMS is an especially dangeorus type of GMS system. When
a Follow-On GMS is fired, two missiles are launched. The primary, and
the "Follow-On". The primary missile rolls to strike the target as
normal. The Follow-On also simultaneously (in game terms) attacks the
target. It homes in using IR and other sensors on the exact MPI of the
previous missile. If the original missile misses, so does the FO missile. If
the primary hits, the FO must roll to hit
(Guidance+Operator Quality vs. D4). The ECM of the defender having
been overcome by the guided primary, the secondary has a relatively simple
task to impact the same spot. If a partial success is scored, the second
missile strike is resolved as a normal missile strike against full armour. If
a major success is scored (fairly likely), the second missile attacks half
(round down) the armour of the struck facing. Note that this type of weapon
has special paired ammunition and must be fired from a special launcher
although such launchers are
available as GMS/L-FO, GMS/H-FO, and GMS/P-FO. They (like the OA
missiles) are very expensive, much moreso because they require a special type
of launcher.

Laser Homing (LH) GMS One important way of getting a GMS to its target is
Laser target designation. A laser homing GMS differs from a conventional GMS
in that its success is largely dependent on the success of the designator.
Firing a laser designator is an action that an SG2
designator team (1-2 men, specialists or trained members of regular
formations) can undertake. The object, of course, it to hold the
designator on-target until such time as the GMS can home in on it.
Generally, the designating unit will conduct this fire as its second action,
and on the next friendly activation, the GMS firing unit will activate and
fire as its first action. Note that there exists one enemy activation between
times. This reflects the chance that (if the designators have not picked their
opportunity well) the target vehicle or one of its flankers or another unit
entirely could engage and suppress or destroy the designating unit.

To Hit with a Laser Designator: 24" Range bands. Unit
Quality die of Designator Team + Designator Quality vs. Range die.
(If untrained in designator, apply two negative die shifts to unit quality).
The figure using the designator must be identified.

To Hit with a LH-GMS:

If Laser Designation unit has scored major success and the LOS between
designator unit and target is not obscured, the designating figure has not
been suppressed, rendered a casualty, or forced to route or the like:
Quality Die of GMS Team + Guidance of GMS vs. D4.

If Laser Designation unit has scored minor success and the LOS between
designator unit and target is not obscured, the designating figure has not
been suppressed, rendered a casualty, or forced to route or the like:
Quality Die of GMS Team + Guidance of GMS vs. D8.

If Laser Designation unit has failed or has been suppressed, or the designator
has blocked LOS, the designating figure is rendered a
casualty, or forced to route or the like: Quality Die of GMS Team +
Guidance of GMS vs. (D8x2).

Laser Homing GMS are available in GMS/L, GMS/H, and GMS/P. LH GMS
missiles may be fired from a standard GMS launcher as the beam riding is a
missile function. They are expensive however.

The Laser designator is a man portable unit (although each team probably has
two just in case one breaks, hence a two man team). Smaller designators with
12" range bands may be available. A vehiclular designator system could be
considered to take up 2 spaces, have a 24" range band (but multiple by target
class). Such a designator may be fired as the first action of a vehicle crew
(by, for example the commander) and the GMS could be fired as the second
action (by the gunner). This kind of designation is fast enough that it allows
very little reaction on behalf of the target.

Note for the daring, infantry laser beacons are available. If one of these is
successfully attached to a target vehicle, it is considered designated by a
major success. To Attach Infantry Laser Beacon: Troops must move into contact
with enemy vehicle. Placement is a single action, which risks one member of
the squad (owner must designate). Chance of successful placement: Infantry
Troop Quality vs. Vehicle Crew Troop Quality. This represents the fact that
vehicle crew will try to make it hard for swarming infantry to place such a
beacon. (And they'll probably, on their action, hose the infantry with SAWS).
If the vehicle moved during the turn the infantry are trying to attach the
beacon, apply a one die negative shift on the attacking infantry's quality. If
the vehicle moved twice, two die shifts negative on the attacking infantry's
quality. If any hit is scored, consider the beacon
attacked. IF THE INFANTRY TROOP QUALITY ROLL IS A 2, the infantry-man
placing the mine is injured by the vehicle. IF THE INFANTRY TROOP
QUALITY ROLL IS A 1, the infantry-man placing the mine is killed.
Note, it is possible to place the beacon and still have a trooper injured.
Removing a beacon would involve an action by either friendly infantry in
contact with the vehicle or an already dismounted vehicle crew.

Note that the above rolls could also be used for Limpet Mine (D12* Impact
attack) placement. If major success is acheived, D12x2 is the Impact. (as per
standard rules for weapons with an asterisk).

Vehicular Point Defense System (VPDS)

The VPDS system involves several components, any combination of which can be
installed. They are available in all standard quality levels.

APFC Belts - Charges designed to kill infantry that get too close to
the vehicle. When any infantry unit enters 6" of the vehicle with active APFC
Belts, the APFCs fire. This includes if the vehicle drives past such units.
The APFC attacks the target as a standard CDM. If the vehicle with APFC is hit
by a kinetic energy weapon (HKP, RFAC, SLAM, etc), the APFC may be set off
involuntarily (bad for friendlies too). Roll a quality die for the VPDS
system. If the roll is a one, the APFC detonates, attacking EVERYTHING within
6" of the vehicle as a CDM. The APFC belt is then considered destroyed. If ANY
heavy weapon hits an APFC equipped vehicle, roll the VPDS system quality die
(actually this can be combined with the explosion roll)
and on a 1-2, the APFC belt is destroyed with no explosion (if
combining the rolls, 2 destroys the system, 1 sets it off -thus also
destroying it).

Laser Obscuring Aerosol Dispensers (LOADs) The vehicle with LOADs has a laser
sensing net as part of its design and an array of LOAD cannisters to dispense
laser blocking smoke (also blocks normal LOS) when the target is designated
with a laser (but not with an infantry beacon!). When the LOAD equipped
vehicle is designated, roll VPDS quality die vs. D8. If the LOAD die is
higher, the LOAD system activates and (in a direct line between the designator
and target) a 2" wide, 3" long smoke cloud will be placed. This effectively
blocks LOS betweem the center of the vehicle and the designator. Any laser
guided missiles using this designator are considered designated by a blocked
designator. This aerosol will
also block normal fire resolution or hamper it severely (+1 range
band for every 0.5" of aerosol). (check me here... this may not be consistent
with smoke penalties....) Multiple LOAD deployments in a turn are possible.

Anti-Missile Kinetic Defence System (AMKDS)
An AMKDS is a high precision, short range, high accuracy radar suite coupled
to a direct fire, high rate weapon. The vehicle designer can hook the system
to a designated missile defence only weapon, or to another more general
purppose weapon. The advantage of designating a weapon system for this is that
its use WON'T stop you firing during a round and that your normal engagement
WON'T stop your missile defence from working. The weapon must be a modified
HEL (capable of short, rapid pulses) or an RFAC. (I don't think any other
types are appropriate). WIth a designated AMKDS weapon: When a GMS is launch
targetted on the vehicle occurs, before it is resolved, the AMKDS system
attempts to intercept. Roll VPDS quality die versus missile guidance
(represents the quality of missile electronics and its ability to dodge as it
comes in). If VPDS wins, missile is destroyed. If missile wins, missile then
gets to attack normally. With a general use weapon fitted for dual role AMKDS:
When a GMS is launch targetted on the vehicle occurs, before it is resolved,
the AMKDS system attempts to intercept. If the weapon system has already fired
this turn, the system may not attempt an intercept (the gun is engaging other
targets). If the weapon has not fired this turn, AMKDS engages and THE GUN MAY
NOT FIRE THIS TURN except for further AMKDS engagements. Roll VPDS quality die
with a one die negative shift (non designated weapon) versus missile guidance
(represents the quality of missile electronics and its ability to dodge as it
comes in). If VPDS wins, missile is destroyed. If missile wins, missile then
gets to attack normally.

LOAD systems and APFC belts are reasonably inexpensive. AMKDS systems are
fairly expensive for the radar system, but are more expensive (and effective)
if a seperate turreted weapon is designed into the vehicle specifically for
AMKDS use.

Now, how's that for some GMS ideas? Comments welcome. When these are cleaned
up, I'll post them to Jed's Unofficial Stargunt WWW Page.

Tom.

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From: Andrew Martin <Al.Bri@x...>

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:05:14 +1300

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> wrote:
Remember that GMS and other weapons fired from a aerospace craft hit on the
vehicle top side as well. I'm not sure of this, but I'm under the impression
that top armour of ground vehicles is the same as the side armour or one less
than frontal armour. The underneath of ground vehicles is definitely TWO
levels lower than frontal armour.
    In my games, I assume that rear armour is like underneath armour -
two levels less than frontal armour, minimum of zero.

> Laser Homing GMS are available in GMS/L, GMS/H, and GMS/P. LH GMS
Well, I think they should be cheaper in points cost and real world credits,
dollars, pounds, ECUs or whatever. Laser homing missiles are LESS smart than
fire & forget missiles.

> Laser Obscuring Aerosol Dispensers (LOADs)
Firing the smoke dischargers should be as effective. I am assuming that the
smoke dischargers fire effective smoke that blocks all sensors.

> Anti-Missile Kinetic Defence System (AMKDS)
Size 1 and 2 MDC would be OK as well. A case could be made for DFFG 1 & 2 as
well.

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:24:30 +0100

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> >Overhead-Attack (OA) GMS

Quoting the SGII vehicle rules, page 31: "The rated Armour Value actually
indicates the armour used on the FRONT surfaces of the vehicle; the SIDES, TOP
and REAR are assumed to have a value of 1 less than the frontal armour, except
for those with Armour 1 which are assumed to be 1all around."

The DSII mine rules (p.44) assume that the bottom armour is 2 levels lower
than the front armour; the SGII mine rules assume that the mines
attack the wheels/tracks/ skirts/grav pads instead, and don't bother
with armour at all, except in the summary box which seems to confuse the
Suspension die with Armour :-/

So, Andrew, you remembered the rules correctly :-)

Regards,

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:08:26 -0500

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

Oerjan spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> Quoting the SGII vehicle rules, page 31: "The rated Armour Value

Mea Culpa. Although deck armour must have got a LOT better to be only
one level lower. It tends to be 1/2 to 1/4 thickness and flat. But
even striking one armour level less is an improvement!

> The DSII mine rules (p.44) assume that the bottom armour is 2 levels

Well, I'll have to take a look at that. Mines do attack both the armour and
the suspension parts in RL.

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From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:15:26 -0500

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

Andrew spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> Remember that GMS and other weapons fired from a aerospace craft

Yep. OAs would be fired by land units mostly.

I'm not sure of this, but I'm under the
> impression that top armour of ground vehicles is the same as the side

Although there is an argument for making Top armour two less in earlier period
scenarios (giving rise to OAs) then one less in more modern vehicles. As for
the bottom, there is an argument with grav vehicles to give them equal or at
worst one less point of armour (especially given any flight capabilities).
Pity the vehicle design system wasn't a tad more elaborate to let the player
design his armour levels (if you want to build an armour 5 front, armour 1
rear, tank destroyer, so be it.....).

> >Laser Homing GMS are available in GMS/L, GMS/H, and GMS/P. LH GMS

> Well, I think they should be cheaper in points cost and real world

I was referring to this as an add-on capability, though I've now seen
the work on earlier age laser homing missiles. Perhaps they are indeed
cheaper. You do make a good argument.

> >Laser Obscuring Aerosol Dispensers (LOADs)

I would assume that in many cases this would be a LOAD instead of 'smoke'.
(Probably has EM blockers too). But some SDs may just discharge plain old
vanilla smoke (and stuff emanating from burning vehicles would only be normal
smoke).

> >Anti-Missile Kinetic Defence System (AMKDS)

> Size 1 and 2 MDC would be OK as well. A case could be made for

GAC should have been on the list.

I don't believe that the ROF on MDCs is enough (its fast, but probably not as
fast as an RFAC, pulsed HEL or GAC). My idea of DFFG is that it isn't a rotary
or high speed cannon as it packs so much whack into one shot. Maybe it is...?

Whehter one allows MDCs or small DFFGs to perform this role is a personal
flavour thing. I don't think so, but I can see the arguments. If you like it,
go ahead!
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From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:12:01 -0500

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

Thomas spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> I was referring to this as an add-on capability, though I've now seen

As an addendum to my own comment, the think about the LOAD system iw the laser
reactive web used to detect the incoming laser. I assume firing smoke would be
(in SG2) an action (Fire action for vehicle smoke dischargers). This is not
what you want when another player will GMS you during HIS turn. Thus you
wouldn't be able to launch smoke then (if one unit was firing GMS and one was
designating, between being designated and being hit you would have an
opportunity to activate that unit had it not already been active that turn and
then you could pop smoke). The LOAD system makes this automatic (someone
designates you, but before the GMS is resolved, your LOAD goes off).

I liked the idea of putting a "Designated" counter on a target that was laser
designated. That would be an easy way to track if something was designated.
Then remove it if LOS or LOAD or smoke or something obscures the designation.

Tom.
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From: Paul Lesack <lesack@u...>

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:44:11 -0700

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

You might want to see a doctor about that;)

> Thomas Barclay wrote:
Sorry, I'm really tired...

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 00:53:20 +0100

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

[rule quote on vehicle armour snipped]

> Mea Culpa. Although deck armour must have got a LOT better to be only

That's probably because most combat vehicles in use today were designed
before the OA missiles were invented :-/ Such missiles exist today (the
Swedish army uses them, and I'm pretty sure the US army have bought at least
some as well), so there's no reason why the vehicle designers shouldn't adapt
as fast as they can. A century or two should suffice, I thing <g>

> But even striking one armour level less is an improvement!

Yep :-)

[Summary of SGII mines vs vehicles rule snipped]

> Well, I'll have to take a look at that. Mines do attack both the

Yes. It is possible to disable a vehicle in SGII completely, but its
armour value doesn't come into the mechanic - only its suspension (the
higher from the ground, the less effect of the mine). How realistic it is
I don't know - John?

Regards,

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:20:52 -0700

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> > The DSII mine rules (p.44) assume that the bottom armour is 2 levels

No, they attack either or.  A tilt-rod will trigger on either the tread
or the belly. A simply pressure fuze is tread only. If the tread triggers it,
it will generally absorb the entire blast.

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 01:29:58 -0700

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:

> That's probably because most combat vehicles in use today were

The US Army is replaceing the Dragon with the Javelin, which has two
modes, top attack and head-on (the latter for cases where you just can't
get at the tank's top--like it's parked in someone's garage or
whatever--top attack is standard).

> > Well, I'll have to take a look at that. Mines do attack both the

From: Andrew Martin <Al.Bri@x...>

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 21:22:55 +1300

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

> Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@sofkin.ca> wrote:
We could modify it to do this, giving the ability to reduce armour on the
sides and top and so saving on points. I wouldn't like to see the ability to
increase armour to more that front minus one. I'll give it some more thought.

> I don't believe that the ROF on MDCs is enough (its fast, but
The Gauss Autocannon (GAC) is similar to Mass Driver Cannon (MDC) in
small calibres. The DSII rules suggest that sizes 3+ are single shot
cannons, while size 1 & 2 are all rapid fire.

> My idea of DFFG
It depends really on people's favourite genre as to whether it is or not.

> Whether one allows MDCs or small DFFGs to perform this role is a
Absolutely!

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:19:23 -0500

Subject: Re: Some GMS Thoughts [SG2]

Andrew spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> >I don't believe that the ROF on MDCs is enough (its fast, but
in
> small calibres. The DSII rules suggest that sizes 3+ are single shot

If I'm not mistaken, SG2 makes GAC sizes 1 and 2 and MDCs 3-5, thus
more or less being what you just said. So I guess we concur....
Does DS2 allow both GAC 1 & 2 and MDC 1-5 ?

> >My idea of DFFG

Agreed.

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