Mike: The mechanism of openshifting fire die means the sniper is more likely
to get spotted the further he is from the enemy.... very odd that.
So far, everyone has spoken about snipers (well lots of folk anyway) and have
all been right in a sense.
As far as I can see, the use of snipers (what I'd call a sniper - a
specialist asset assigned at battalion level) is widely varied between forces
the world over. Heck, in the Vietnam era, even within the US
forces, sniper usage was very different - some divisions had none,
others had some guy with an M14 who was a good shot, and some had guys with 18
weeks of training on a specialist range with accurized weapons and match ammo.
So you really have to put it in context.
Los and Owen have characterized their experiences with such folk in their
militaries. In the Canadian military, I've met guys who were sniper qualified,
and our reserve unit had a rifle team which had some darn scary people on it
(one won a Queen's medal at Bisley) but we didn't have "snipers" per se. They
were just grunts like all the others. In combat, I don't even think anyone
would bother giving them a special tasking despite their skills. However, I
also know that some of the units (I'm sure JTF, SSF, and the former airborne)
had formally
trained snipers - trained in escape and evasion, sneaky movement,
musketry, etc. Often these are part of a scout/sniper platoon attached
at battalion level, though sometimes as low as company.
Part of the historical reason this situation of varied use has come to pass is
that sniper success is highly debatable on a large scale (unlike in SG2 where
I think its pretty notable!). Yes, snipers have brought down targets way out
of proportion to their rounds fired as compared to the rest of the forces, but
even in Vietnam their usage was limited enough due to often being commanded by
B'n or Divisional officers who had no idea how to implement a sniper doctrine
(and oft times, neither did the snipers). But were they really effective war
winners? Who can say? Not I. Some snipers got 93 kills (Gunny Hatcock) or 103
(Sgt. Waldron) and others got 1 or 2.
Snipers have done all sorts of missions - but often they were escorted
by infantry for security of their firing point. Sometimes they were called up
to help the point formation of infantry clear a dug in enemy. Sometimes they
flew river patrols at night prone in the back of a slick followed by two
snakes. The sniper would fire tracer and if he saw what he thought was a valid
target on the river and the snakes would watch where he shot and go in guns
blazing. One story I read
relates to this type of work - the sniper fired, didn't here snake
cannon-fire, and asked the snake driver when they got back to base
"why didn't you fire?". The snake driver was heard to reply that the sniper
had hit the suspected VC in the chest with the tracer, knocking him off the
boat dead as a doornail, while flying in a helicopter at night from a range of
at least two hundred feet.
In SG2, I try to differentiate between snipers and marksmen. (Adrian got me
started on this difference). Snipers I let do the "go hide" thing. I also let
them move hidden (at risk of revealing themselves). I let them get double
range AND pick their targets. Marksmen I treat in a more limited fashion like
a specialized support weapon. I let them fire with or apart from the squad. If
with the squad, they add their die. If separate, they get their dice *and* the
doubled range bands. I'd only let these guys pick their targets IFF they make
a 'spot target' check first (spotting roll). They just aren't quite the same
as normal snipers, but are often more ubiqutious. These guys I'd put in my SF
teams (if I didn't have a real sniper), in my FSE infantry sections (saw this
in Bosnia), and at least one per platoon in most modern forces. Sometimes
(because they can shoot further), they replace one SAW in a platoon. I also
penalize snipers without
spotters (and marksmen) 1 downshift on FP - the spotter should help
their efficacy. It also helps make them bearable to have on the
field. The spotter (if with a hiding-sniper) just moves and hides with
the sniper. He helps the sniper by spotting, by carrying him out if he is hit,
and by carrying a silenced SMG or some such close in weapon in case the sniper
position gets overrun while they are sniping or hiding.
I'd say I wouldn't let snipers fire out beyond their maximum range... They
don't waste rounds. They tend not to draw fire to themselves if they can avoid
it. They wait, then kill someone. That's usually a pretty effective way to
stop a unit. Los recalled his SF story about his sniper mowing down enemy
targets (did he get smoked by this heroic reargaurd?) and a book I read about
Vietnam illustrated where a single vietnamese sniper held back a company
leading an infantry battalion. The whole battalion was held up. Every time
they'd try to move forward, he'd kill someone else. It took them a long time
to get an idea where he was, and he may have moved. They used artillery,
airstrikes, etc. etc. They were tied up for an entire day. AND THEY NEVER GOT
HIM. And he was using some ancient bolt action rifle from
some many-years-previous war. Imagine what he'd have done if he'd had
a modern weapon - he'd have smoked the battalion! (I'm exaggerating -
nonetheless it was staggering to see how effectively one guy held up an entire
formation, and by doing so, held up a larger formation.
My 0.02. Back to work. Tom
> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:59:38 -0500, kaladorn@fox.nstn.ca wrote:
> But were they really effective war
I've recently been readind Stephen Ambrose' excellent book _D-Day_. The
Germans made extensive use of snipers, but these were not specialized
marksmen, I don't think. They were lone soldiers hidden away and taking pot
shots at the enemy. In many cases, a "sniper" is what the Americans called
him, when in fact it was just a regular soldier all by himself.
They were effective for the reasons they are effective in SG2. They made men
keep their heads down. They pinned them, and usually rather well. They delayed
the advance of troops, particularly in front of minefields.
Though effective, they were limited in application. The Germans needed to
throw the Allies off the beach. All snipers succeeded in doing was slowing
their advance. But they were effective.
Mind you, these men who were snipers but not marksmen were easier to eliminate
than is the case in SG2. They often stayed too long in one place, or took
positions that were too exposed once identified. There were specialized
marksmen (I have a 12" Wehermacht sniper "doll" made by Dragon, for instance)
but these were not the majority of "snipers" during D-Day, and probably
the case for the entire war.
Greetings! I'll preface my comments by stating that I have only played one SG2
game and have not served in the military (so you can weight my comments as
appropriate).
A lot of good comments were presented in this thread. The comments about
Snipers vs. Marksmen is very helpful.
I would also suggest a distinction between the role of a sniper and an
assassin. The primary role of a sniper is to delay and demoralize an enemy
unit. The primary role of an assassin is to eliminate a specific target
(element). I would limit the assassin role to FMA Skirmish as it is a much
smaller scale.
If the role of the sniper is to delay/demoralize an enemy, I would
think that the sniper would only fire from within effective range (a range
where he has a chance to hit a target). Otherwise, he might not get a
suppression marker.
I would suggest the following changes to the rules: if a sniper in range makes
an attack against a unit, and the sniper is the only unit firing on that unit,
the target unit receives a suppression marker even if the sniper misses.
Reasoning? A sniper does not have to hit a target to make the entire unit take
notice. This usually makes the unit head for cover until it can spot the
sniper (even if no one was hit). However, if the unit is under attack, one
extra shot may not be noticed (hence the provision that the sniper is the only
unit to attack). Of course, if the sniper hits the target, the unit should
receive a suppression marker, regardless if another unit is attacking. This
also keeps the unit busy while the sniper makes a concealed movement.
One last suggestion. For each round a sniper fires without moving (after the
first), its cover die is shifted Down one for fire against hidden targets
directed against the sniper and an observer's quality die gets shifted UP one
if trying to spot the sniper.
Again, see notes on qualifiers to my comments.
Tom, I thought we were on a first name basis. <g>
> kaladorn@fox.nstn.ca wrote:
> Mike: The mechanism of openshifting fire die means the sniper is more
Actually, only open shifting the QUALITY die has that effect, which I stated.
If you don't like it, feel free to disallow sniper shots beyond the firepower
die shift. Alternately, you could have the sniper roll his original quality
die to check for a '1' only, but count the shifted quality die for suppression
and effectiveness. You could always keep the rules as written, too! <g>
Even with the open-shifted quality die, this only occurs after the
firepower die has shifted to D4. There are four sniper rifles listed on p.27:
Conventional Sniping Rifle FP:D10, Gauss Sniping Rifle FP:D10, Laser
Sniping Rifle FP:D12, and Heavy Anti-Material Rifle FP:D8. So at a
minimum, you need to shift down the D8 two times to get to D4, and then a
third time to lower the quality die, which will increase the chances of being
spotted. So, at a minimum, we're talking about the 8th range band. For a
regular quality sniper, each range band is 16". That means you don't get into
the 8th range band until you're taking a shot over 112" or 9'4". We've never
had a sniper take a shot at this range. In fact, we don't even play on a table
which would physically allow it. It's just an interesting side effect of our
house rule which open shifts firepower and quality dice. In the ground scale,
though, that's 1120 meters. It does seem odd that you'd be able to pick out a
sniper at such a long range, but then again, the sniper may have to expose
himself to take such a long shot. It also means that there is a longer flight
time for the projectile or beam, which might make it easier to track. There is
also a longer time between when the round or beam hits and when the sound
arrives. This may give some advantage in determining the direction of the
sniper. Then finding him might be easier since, because of the longer time
between the hit and the sound, you have a better idea about the range.
However, when we discussed this, we just thought it would be a nice game
effect. If you want to try to take such a long shot, there are risks.
> Part of the historical reason this situation of varied use has come to
Michael Lee Lanning concludes in his book, _Inside the Crosshairs:
Snipers in Vietnam_
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804116202/qid%3D945181144/103-6
818742-4531822),
that snipers, while individually impressive, contributed very little to the
effort in Vietnam. From reading your post, I think you've read it.
> In SG2, I try to differentiate between snipers and marksmen. (Adrian
This sounds like an excellent variant. We might put this to use around here.
How many "marksmen" do you usually assign to a platoon?
> I'd say I wouldn't let snipers fire out beyond their maximum range...
Agreed, if he's doing that, he ceases to be a sniper.
-Mike
=============
Mr.Bell speaks sagely
=============
Mr.Bell made an excellent point about how to use sniper suppression. If it is
part of a firefight, it won't suppress. If a unit is not otherwise under fire,
it probably will. Even ineffective sniper fire is probably almost effective
enough to make the troops want to find a stone or concrete berm to hide
behind....
Though I have a question: What did you mean here? is this SG2 and am I missing
something? Cover die? You mean the range die?
"
One last suggestion. For each round a sniper fires without moving (after the
first), its cover die is shifted Down one for fire against hidden targets
directed against the sniper and an observer's quality die gets shifted UP one
if trying to spot the sniper.
"
I'm good with the die shift for spotting. I don't like the other part.
I think I'm going to try to collect some of these posts and put up an SG2
sniper page.
=============================
On to Mr.Sarno
=============================
From: Michael Sarno <msarno@ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Re: Snipers, Mr. Sarno!
Tom, I thought we were on a first name basis. <g>
** Mike, did you check the last turn of our PBEM? We might not be on a first
name basis after that....:) <g>
In the ground scale, though, that's 1120 meters. It does seem odd that you'd
be able to pick out a sniper at such a long range, but then again, the sniper
may have to expose himself to take such a long shot. It also means that there
is a longer flight time for the projectile or beam,
** the difference for a laser between 1120 meters and 1 meter is in terms of
microseconds... I don't think that'd matter too much.
which might make it easier to track. There is also a longer time between when
the round or beam hits and when the sound arrives. This may give some
advantage in determining the direction of the sniper.
** From experience, I can say knowing that someone is sniping at you is NOT
the same as knowing where from.... even in paintball....
Michael Lee Lanning concludes in his book, _Inside the Crosshairs:
Snipers in Vietnam_
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804116202/qid%3D945181144/103-6
818742-4531822),
that snipers, while individually impressive, contributed very little to the
effort in Vietnam. From reading your post, I think you've read it.
** Guilty as charged. I think this should be mandatory reading for anyone
interested in sniping. That and a few web pages on the net devoted to both Law
Enforcement and Military Sniping.
This sounds like an excellent variant. We might put this to use around here.
How many "marksmen" do you usually assign to a platoon?
** Well, in my NSL platoon, I had plans to attach real sniper teams at
the company level (part of the scout/sniper platoon). In my FSE, I was
planning to say that the la Legion Etrange Colonial used one per ten man
section. So probably 3 in platoon. But it would vary (as real sniping
does) from commander to commander - some wouldn't want the logistics and
expense in keeping up a separate weapon, others would just not like it or find
it effective, while others might gladly seek 3 marksmen per platoon. 1 is a
conservative number and quite useful. 3 makes for an interesting variant of
the game... and you find that it makes units effective at much longer ranges.
Sorry, I was incorrect.
SG p. 25 (Firing at Unlocated Targets) references the Range Die modified by
Cover (not a cover die as I wrote). My thought was that each time the sniper
fires and does not move, his general location would be narrowed (even if not
actually spotted). "He's somewhere between those two trees. Put a couple of
frag grenades in there." What would be a better mechanic to model this? The
rules state that there is no effect unless the firer manages to beat the
target's best of 2 dice rolls. Perhaps shift the range die down?
As I indicated, I have only played once, so perhaps both penalties are too
much.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/gzg/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
> Though I have a question: What did you mean here? is this SG2 and am I
[snip]
> Thomas Barclay of the Clan Barclay wrote:
> =============================
Another turn like that, and I won't be on a first name basis with anyone! <g>
> ** the difference for a laser between 1120 meters and 1 meter is in
I'm not sure about that. You'd be able to get a better idea of the direction
from which the beam is originating. The fact that the sniper is revealed on a
roll of a '1' represents more than just the ability of the squad under fire to
see the muzzle flash. It represents
all the assets, both on- and off-table, to locate the sniper. The fact
that the beam is originiating from 1120 meters away from it's target, means
that more people are going to be able to see it, hence, more people will be
making the attempt to find the sniper.
> which might make it easier to track. There is also a longer time
Well paintballs are not supersonic, you hear the shot being fired
and then see and/or
hear the shot hit. I'm guessing that the Conventional Sniping Rifle on p.27
fires
supersonic rounds. So you'd see/hear the round hit, dive for cover, and
then you'd hear the shot being fired. I'd have to agree that knowing is not
the same as knowing where, but that's why it only happens on a '1' on the
quality die. We got into this discussion because of my suggestion to open
shift the firepower and then quality dice for small arms fire. So the
increased chance of locating sniper only kicks in at extreme ranges. Again,
I'm not convinced this is a realistic effect (It was a side effect of the open
shift.) but it seems plausible enough and it is certainly a fun game effect.
> ** Well, in my NSL platoon, I had plans to attach real sniper teams at
Thanks for the details. I'm going to incorporate this into some of my TOEs.
> ========================
Agreed. The quality die covers a multitude of variables. In addition, troops
with better leaders will motivate them to get moving more quickly. I just
don't see any need to modify the system in this particular area.
-Mike
> On 15-Dec-99 at 07:39, Michael Sarno (msarno@ptdprolog.net) wrote:
I think I agree with the "not matter too much". This isn't the continuous
laser we see in books and magazines, this is something whose duration
is shorter than we can see. It is also a laser which means there isn't
much light going in random directions to pick up.
Heres a "did you know". Did you know that if you are in a room without much
dust you can't even see a continuous beam laser unless it is pointed
right into your eye? Just be careful when dealing with Fibre Giga-bit
ethernet. (Or the fibre channel disks in the Sun arrays).
> I'm guessing that the Conventional Sniping Rifle on
With veteran troops probably, with green or average troops it would probably
be:
See someone fall.
Look around blankly for reason for 1/4 second.
Hear shot.
Stand doing "Oh sh*t" for 1/4 second.
Dive for cover.:)
> Roger Books wrote:
> On 15-Dec-99 at 07:39, Michael Sarno (msarno@ptdprolog.net) wrote:
I'm curious to know how you "know" what type of laser people are using in
their SGII games. <g> Anyway, the lasers in our games vaporize the air as they
travel and make that cool "laser" sound. The longer they travel, the more of
that sound they make and the easier it is for you to determine the point of
origin. Further, any laser fired on a battlefield is going to have to pass
through dust and probably smoke, so there will be a great deal of light going
in random directions.
-Mike
> On 15-Dec-99 at 10:56, Michael Sarno (msarno@ptdprolog.net) wrote:
Ah, blasters or phasers. <vbg> More of a directed lightning bolt. Do lightning
bolts go up or down?
In a message dated 12/15/99 10:55:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> msarno@ptdprolog.net writes:
> I'm curious to know how you "know" what type of laser people are
Of course, now you are assuming visible light spectrum laser...personally I'd
opt for the x-ray variety :-)
Rob
Quoth Mike:
> I'm curious to know how you "know" what type of laser people
Quoth Rob:
> Of course, now you are assuming visible light spectrum
Would still excite the air molecules and give you that characteristic
"lightning bolt zap" sound and light. Unless you're in a vacuum, of course.
> RWHofrich@aol.com wrote: