simple rules for non-gamers

My boss just asked me for advice regarding a simple set of rules
suitable for his children to play with (ages 7/9).  He's not a gamer, so

I'm wondering if anyone knows of anything that might be suitable. Probably
WWII or SF.

> My boss just asked me for advice regarding a simple set of rules

Is it for him to play WITH his kids, or for them to play on their own?

For a very simple and lighthearted SF skirmish that you can use any figures
for, what about ShockForce? Though some of the imagery in the
rulebook might not be ideal for 7-9 year olds.... :-/

Otherwise, there is always a stripped-down lite version of FT as
we've discussed on here before - beams only, no complications, and if
an adult player writes his/her movement orders then the opposing kids
don't have to...

Agreed, if it's the kids by themselves, hard to have a set of rules to just
give them.

FTII lite, especially with a set of move templates, arrainged as cards to
select for cinematic, seems like a way to go.

I know there was a monster rules set that used stuffed animal toys, with green
soldiers, I believe, that always had a large crowd of kids playing at cons.
Can't find it via Google, a bad sign, but I think it was Very Large Fuzzy
Creatures, or similar.

I think there are some green soldier rules on the web that would do.

Best yet, with 7-9 yr olds, a father should be  able to come up with
simple set that will satisfy the fry until they can add rules of their own.
Always make 'em play the same setup but switch positions so they can
understand why they won so handily at first, or why it's important to get into
the other fellow's head.

'Each toy soldier can move the length of this string, bend it if you have to,
and can shoot if he stops before the knot. Use this other sting to see if any
of the boxes on the table are in the way of, and blocks, a shot.
Roll these four dice for any shot, and a single pip is an out-of-game
hit. Use only two dice if the target is touching a box. Everybody has to make
"bang" or "pow" sounds whenever shooting, or it's a misfire.'

Great way to breed budding rules lawyers, too. ;->=

The_ Beast

ODGW.com has a nice set of WWII tank-combat rules for kids.  My sons (8,
5 and 4 yrs old) enjoy it a bunch and cheer when I suggest we play "The tank
game..."

It's free for download.

--Tim

> On Friday 13 February 2004 11:05 am, Doug Evans wrote:
Always
> make 'em play the same setup but switch positions so they can

I found it!

http://www.fuzzyheroes.com/

Fuzzy Heroes is for just stuffed animals, VLC or Very Large Creatures is toy
soldiers vs. stuff animals as 'Godzilla'. Never played it myself, and there
was always one or more adults running it, but the kids seem to have a blast.

You have to admire a game where a little girl's stuffed bunny can stomp and
wipe out a squad. ;->=

The_Beast

> On Friday, Feb 13, 2004, at 07:12 Europe/London, Andrae Muys wrote:

> My boss just asked me for advice regarding a simple set of rules

It depends whether he's planning to play as well...

If he is, then FT-lite will work. As will Power Projection: Escort. I
know the latter will work because we've demo'd at cons for father/son
combinations. The kids usually get vector movement before the adults.

First wargame I bought was Ogre - must have been around 10 at the time.
In its original form it's pretty simple. Before that I played some WW2 stuff
with the old HO scale airfix figs and a small (A5) hardcover book on designing
wargames that I got from the library (by Charles umm can't remember, it's 23
years ago!).

Actually, it's a shame that you don't see Microgames like you used to
;-) There again, at the age of 7 I was more than happy making up who
won when we fought SF wargames with the die-cast Star Wars X-Wings and
TIE fighters ;-)

Cheers,

Dom Mooney wrote

> First wargame I bought was Ogre - must have been around 10 at the

Ah, that'd likely be 'Battle! Practical Wargaming' by Charles Grant, a book
that got an awful lot of us playing wargames in the early 1970s.

---

> Dom Mooney wrote

Yep, a true classic, and one that helped to get me started too. Originally a
series of articles in Meccano Magazine, later published in book form. Still on
my bookshelf, along with most of Doug Featherstone's and Terry Wise's early
stuff.
Sometimes, when modern rules start to look way over-complex, it's
refreshing to look back at some of these....    :-)

Jon (GZG)

> ---

> Sometimes, when modern rules start to look way over-complex, it's

It was PanzerBlitz that got me into gaming historical stuff (and then on to
SciFi...). I still have two sets of it in the basement. Played it against my
dad when I was a kid quite a bit. I pulled out both sets while in college and
we'd do monster point driven games with all the boards and most of the
counters.

<memories...>

> It was PanzerBlitz that got me into gaming historical stuff (and then

I guess a lot of us fall into this realm. My first wargame was _Panzer
Leader_, the same system (pretty much) in the Western theatre. I
eventually picked up a used version of Panzerblitz.

My first miniatures games were with unpainted Airfix plastic HO models using a
variant of the rules found in Grant or Featherstone. I wish I had those books,
but I borrowed them from the library and they are very hard to find now.

My first skirmish was with 1/32 scale Airfix plastics using rules I got
from the magazine Wargamer's Digest. I still have the magazines, and the
figures, somewhere in my storage locker.

*sigh* I wish there was someone local I could play with. I need a minis fix,
bad.

> My first miniatures games were with unpainted Airfix plastic HO models

The first miniatures game I played was some homebrewed thing a friend and I
came up with using d6s and about a million of those plastic toy soldiers.

Roll a 6 to hit and kill someone with a rifle or pistol. 5 or 6 to hit and
kill someone with an MG.

Close combat was determined by high roll.

Easy fast and mostly painless.

After that we got into Rogue Trader. Wasn't as fast but still mostly painless.
;)

> After that we got into Rogue Trader. Wasn't as fast but still mostly

There are many of my friends that play current WH40K that are still members of
the cult of the Rogue Trader. I swear some show a tear or two when talking
'bout old times.

I used to get in a heck of a lot of trouble spelling it Rouge Trader on rec.
lists, but it was always with fondness.

I still see the same spirit every now and then when someone, having lost a
game, speaks of how good a game it was, how much fun they had. I love the glow
in their eyes...

Then there are those who are just 'playing the rules'...

The_Beast

> Damo wrote:

Okay, now that I remember it, that _was_ what we used! Only we were
playing with Airfix Napoleonics. Killed on a six, with close combat determined
by dicing off and the high roller won. I ended up winning even with less
figures, because I defended with all my guys and he attacked me in waves.
Afterwards I sat down and thought about why I won so handily since it was
essentially a dice rolling contest. It taught me the benefit of localized
superiority and how a larger force inflicts far more casualties per time
period than a smaller force, lessons that helped me while gaming ever since.

> On Monday, Feb 16, 2004, at 13:00 Europe/London, Steve Gill wrote:

> Ah, that'd likely be 'Battle! Practical Wargaming' by Charles Grant, a

> book

That's the one!

I loved that book as a (biggish) kid. Must have had it out for something like
6 months.

cheers,

> I still see the same spirit every now and then when someone, having

Stop...I'm getting misty...

We had some pretty crazy games back then. Using the demon building rules from
Warhammer with Rogue Trader allowed one to *really* game out a small
Inquisitorial force rooting out evil or whatnot.

For some reason we always ended up doing Alamo style games ("You mean it's
only 15:1? That's hardly sporting..."). Mebbe because they were fun to play.

Plus the RT reference to "using whatever figures you'd like" is classic given
GW's current state of affairs as well.

> Okay, now that I remember it, that _was_ what we used!

Kind of funny how things get reinvented over time. In any event it's the
simple things that are the most fun.

On Monday, Feb 16, 2004, at 20:33 Europe/London, damosan@comcast.net
wrote:

> We had some pretty crazy games back then. Using the demon building

The only thing that ever annoyed me about RT was the fact that 2 months later
they released WH3 (or was it WH4) and moved some the the system along
somewhat. It'd have been nice if they'd been the same...

Actually, that wasn't the only annoying thing. The tendancy of the rules to
fall apart when you read them was also quite annoying...

> agoodall@att.net wrote:

My first wargame was the old Metagaming pocket game, Chitin:I. I had ordered
OGRE, but Metagaming sent me the wrong item. Instead of getting all buggery
and sending it back (being all of, what, maybe 13?), I opted
to just check it out. I liked it, and re-ordered OGRE (and Melee), and
go what I wanted the second time around. I decided I liked gaming so much at
that point I saved my precious $$ up to buy Arnhem: A Bridge Too Far and Basic
D&D. The rest, as they say, is history...

> *sigh* I wish there was someone local I could play with. I need a

Wish you could make it out to Lancaster, PA, in a couple weeks. :-/

Mk

LOW COST LOW MAINTENNCE START UP GAMES.

EVERY kid i know that has seen STARSHIP TROOPERS, ALIENS, STAR WARS,
or played a  video game with a  sci-fi us vs nasties from outer space
game is sue to like a game where in they can be eroic humans or nasty BEMs
using miniatures and simple rules.

a very simple, fast play, FUN set of FREE SCI FI ground combat rules that i
have introduced man kids too, is a set from the free wargmes rules site, by
PETE JONES. these are titled "IS THIS ANOTHER BUGHUNT?" the basic rules are
for both players to command squads of USCMC vs dice generated BEMs, so there
is no chance of kinter angst (TOMMY KILLED MY
GUYS!".

soldiers on the  cheap can be bought from EM-4 miniatures in the UK, in
the form of nice looking and sturdy mid tech (ala USCMC) plastic infantry
armed with rifles, grenade launchers, machineguns, flamers, etc, as well as
command and commo troops.

plastic gangers can also be bought to represent lightly armed colonial civvies
under attack, too.

the android, can b easily made by painting a soldier differently from the
rest, ditto a medic.

these figures are clean on the sprue, and after washing can be easily assemble
using TESTORs plastic glue or similiar model cement. they are easy to paint,
too.

BEMS   can be had on the  cheap too.   plastic realistically colored
bugs of ssorted types and size are available from the www as well as
variety/magic stores.  big bags are CHEAP!!!!!

terrain is also cheap. basic game takes place inside a spacecraft or ground
installation over run by aliens with the USCMC rescue party going in to do
what they can do.

sooo, different colored sections of craft paper like the stuff used in schools
can be cut out, in the shape of coridors and rooms, dployed, and the kids
turned loose to see what they can see...

make no mistake! these rules are fun for adults to game as well -among
frinds or at conventions!

DAWGIE

***
a very simple, fast play, FUN set of FREE SCI FI ground combat rules that i
have introduced man kids too, is a set from the free wargmes rules site, by
PETE JONES. these are titled "IS THIS ANOTHER BUGHUNT?" the basic rules are
for both players to command squads of USCMC vs dice generated BEMs, so there
is no chance of kinter angst (TOMMY KILLED MY
GUYS!".
***

I'm rather surprised the kids warm up to the ruleset; I've had enough trouble
keeping interest (Important! keep game moving by small time for talking or
planning) with Aliens board game, and there's no worry about facing. MUCH
simpler list of AP's.

Still, you're right; it's good to have games that are co-operative. I
know that RPG's do that a lot, but it's refreshing in a miniatures combat
game.

The_Beast

Well for a simple set of wargame, and basicly cheap to get into, I will offer
up these.

For those interested here's the url

http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.jones/Rules/Science_Fiction/bughunt.htm

Enjoy Dave

[quoted original message omitted]

> On 2/16/04 4:42 PM, "Dominic Mooney" <dom.mooney@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> On Monday, Feb 16, 2004, at 20:33 Europe/London, damosan@comcast.net

Didn't bother me too much because I found RT before WH. Ignorance is bliss.
When I finally did try warhammer it certainly had a more solid feel to it.

> Actually, that wasn't the only annoying thing. The tendancy of the

My copy *might* have 40% of its pages still attached to the binding.

Damo

> Actually, that wasn't the only annoying thing. The tendancy of the

Sorry to step in here, especially when it's meandering so OT, but for those
who've not experience the original books, Dom means this literally. I've
several books from the period, and the bindings just fall apart. You always
have to check for errant pages, as they drop out when you least notice it.

Add aggravation to frustration, I've seen several copies of RT where sections
were dropping out, but the sheets with removable game counters
stayed stuck to the book cover quite well... ;->=

The_Beast

I've never had a problem with my softcover RT book. It's almost mint (as I
used heavy duty plastic to cover it).

Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies

> -----Original Message-----
I've
> several books from the period, and the bindings just fall apart. You
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> On Mon, 2004-02-16 at 18:43, Doug Evans wrote:

> Sorry to step in here, especially when it's meandering so OT, but for
I've
> several books from the period, and the bindings just fall apart. You

Hate to add to the OT'ness but GW claimed that the "northerly transit of
ships" caused the binding glue to get "too cold" and start falling apart. I
have a copy of WH:Siege that I'm afraid to open anymore.

My FT & MT, on the other hand, have seen 8-9 years of use and only
recently did one start to fall apart (can't remember which.)

> Eric Fialkowski wrote:

> On Mon, 2004-02-16 at 18:43, Doug Evans wrote:
I've
> several books from the period, and the bindings just fall apart. You

Actually, I think this was an early attempt at revenue enhancement. Over time
they found it easier to just obsolete the rules every few years rather
than going to the trouble of using self-destructing binding.

> I guess a lot of us fall into this realm. My first wargame was

Heh.  These "back in the day" stories are fun - it's interesting to see
how people got into it all...

I *thought* my first experiences with wargames were with OGRE/GEV (with
those nifty little black plastic containers that never closed properly,
counters, etc), CarWars, and games like Risk, back around junior high. But
just this weekend I was in a store with my S.O. and saw some
cheapie-plastic green army men.  They reminded me of my collection of
Britains (Britain's??) cowboy and indian figures from when I was 5 or 6. My
dad had a box full of wooden blocks, offcuts from carpentry, odds and ends of
paneling, etc., that he got from a friend who was a carpenter. We would both
set up "forts" facing each other about 6' apart and set up our figures (I was
always the cowboys, of course). We had a set of plastic toy
guns that shot little suction-cup darts.  We would each take shots at
the other's figures until someone had none left, and he lost. Ahh, the good
old days :)   Certainly a simple game...

My dad even created a "real" wargame (tanks, apc's, infantry, etc) using
counters, gridded maps, even cusomized dice (made from a section of pencil
with writing on each of the six sides). I don't remember anything about it
other than what the map looked like and the little pencil-dice things.
That would have been around the same period - when I was 6ish.  Geeze.
I forgot that until I started writing this note. I'll have to remind him
about it - he looked at me a bit funny when I got into wargaming with
miniatures.....

:)

> Eric Fialkowski wrote:

> > Sorry to step in here, especially when it's meandering so OT, but
I've
> > several books from the period, and the bindings just fall apart. You

Which just doesn't explain why copies in the UK fell apart too - unless
they sent all the copies backwards and forwards across the Atlantic until they
got 'too cold' intentionally ;-)

---

> On Tue, Feb 17, 2004 at 11:11:22AM -0000, Steve Gill wrote:

> Which just doesn't explain why copies in the UK fell apart too - unless

I don't know whether it was the case then, but it's certainly the case
now that British small-press publishers often get the actual printing
done in the USA - even before the recent collapse of the dollar it was
often cheaper to get the books printed overseas and shipped to the UK than to
get them printed here. (That's one reason why British RPG books are often
cheaper in the USA than here.)

Wow, I feel like a johnny-come-lately now. It was Necromunda for me
(though I bought the Warzone rules first, technically.)

-P.

> Doug wrote:

> Still, you're right; it's good to have games that are co-operative. I

I've had quite a bit of success playing miniatures co-operatively,
including a "historical" game that I played with a friend to help him plot out
a battle in an alternative history novel he's written. There
are a number of board games that are set up co-operatively, too,
including the Buffy the Vampire Slayer game (which is essentially a miniatures
game on a square grid) and the German designer game version
of _Lord of the Rings_.

> Indy wrote:

I always wanted to order Chitin:I but never got around to it. I did order
Ogre, GEV, and a bunch of other Metagaming games from them in the late 70s.
This thread has me all nostalgic for those games I used to play 20 years ago,
even if in many ways they are inferior to some of the games available today.

> Wish you could make it out to Lancaster, PA, in a couple weeks. :-/

It's not going to happen this year, unfortunately. It may not happen next
year, either, as I only get a week of vacation after this year, and two weeks
next year (accumulated as I work throughout the year). I have a number of
friends and family members planning to visit which will probably kill me for
game conventions unless I go to one of the "local" cons (local being 5 hours
away).

> Dom wrote:

> The only thing that ever annoyed me about RT was the fact that 2

It was Warhammer 3, and it was a bit longer than 2 months, if I remember
correctly.

There were a number of annoying things in Rogue Trader. There was the "move
then fire" turn sequence, which had been pretty much abandoned by
serious wargames by the late 1970s/early 1980s. There was the fact that
there was no real penalty for firing while moving. There was no opportunity
fire rule.

I changed the play sequence to a simplified version of the original Squad
Leader and it played rather well. I can't remember what I did for a penalty
for moving and firing, I may have just prevented figures from moving when
firing, but it worked. I added an opportunity fire rule, which GW themselves
added in White Dwarf near the end of RT's official life span. I remember
enjoying the game, but lost interest when it became clear that GW was
fostering an arms race, and if you didn't have
the latest-and-greatest you were in trouble.

> Actually, that wasn't the only annoying thing. The tendancy of the

Yes, that was a pain. I wrote to them and they actually sent me a replacement
copy of RT. I ended up selling it on eBay last year, though
I still have the original which I pulled out of its binding, three-hole
punched and put in a binder. I've since sold all of my GW minis except for the
original and 2nd edition Space Marine stuff, much of which I intend to use
with DS2 one of these days.

> Adrian wrote:

> They reminded me of my collection of

Now that you mention it, I know my earliest wargaming memories really predate
Panzer Leader. I got Panzer Leader for my 13th birthday. My first miniatures
game, with the plastic airfix Napoleonics, must have predated that by a good
couple of years.

But _way_ before that, I remember creating my own wargame using an old
world map that my Dad got when he was working on renovations at a school. I
created my own counters and my own rules. I must have been about 7 or 8 when I
did that. I think it was based loosely on Risk, which I didn't play until
sometime after that.

You bring back lots of memories talking about Britains figures. They were
fairly easy to find in Canada (I'm sure the Brits on the list found
them a _lot_ easier to find), and I remember spending a lot of money on
them. I still have, somewhere, some of the vehicles that I used with the
1/32 scale Airfix figures.

On Tuesday, Feb 17, 2004, at 11:16 Europe/London, Roger Burton West
wrote:

> I don't know whether it was the case then, but it's certainly the case

Also 90% of the market is in the US so it makes sense to have your stock
there.