Shotguns

5 posts ยท Feb 14 2003 to Feb 16 2003

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 16:49:22 -0500

Subject: Shotguns

One of our listers said:

Hehe, I served in the USMC on FAST team 1 for four years

[Tomb] FAST?

and I can tell you that the shotgun is much much better then your standard
assault rifle in CQB.

[Tomb] Proviso: You are not engaging
opponents in hardshell armour or with armoured exoskeleton.

There are several reasons for this, but primarily because of flexibility with
ammunition types (light loads for indoor work, so you don't hit your buddies
through walls, etc..chees cutters for knocking down wood doors...).

[Tomb] A number of US SWAT/ERT teams
have shifted off of 00 and some have even shifted from 12 ga. to 20 ga.
shotguns to deal with the overpenetration issue (and most 12 ga. use tactical
loads as you illustrate).

With shot you get a larger spread and can open up the choke to really use it
to sweep hallways and rooms.

[Tomb] Will this be select-on-the-fly in
2183?

Plus shotguns tend to be shorter on the whole and more easily wielded in urban
terrain.

[Tomb] And I've seen it suggested that
some may even have small 18mm microgrenades made for them. Given the OICW
includes a 20mm GL, I can see 18mm grenades being useful and house clearing
loves grenades....

However I have to question it being better then an assault rifle against
something like powered armor, unless of course you are using solid slugs;)

[Tomb] I assume a solid standard slug is
useless. I assume the impact isn't enough to be singularly dangerous. I
suspect with a
sci-fi shotgun, you'll have some kind of
multi-feed system to allow you to shift
ammo on the fly (rather than preset load order). This will give you access to
a mix of rounds (limited by what a barrel can fire) but these could include
slug, shot, flechette (good against ballistic cloth, not so hot against modern
composite armours),
saboted penetrators, shok-lock style anti-
obstruction ammo, and of course the main threat I see for PA at close ranges,
something that fires an 18mm "electronics killer" or an 18mm Dragon's Breath
round. For law enforcement or military use, the idea of getting something like
a MetalStorm shotgun (being able to fire multiple ammo types at will) would
allow for a wide range of ammo selection on the fly. (This could, in a police
context, include tranq and beanbag as well as one lethal loadout).

[Tomb] Someone mentioned "scalloping"
(the technique of aim-off so that the edge
of your scatter radius takes a target with some of the shot). This is
sometimes trained by ERT guys who might have to take down a baddie behind a
hostage but obviously is an *extreme circumstances* option due to
unpredictable shot scatter and the difficulty of getting it just right (and if
you don't, the hostage won't like you much). There's even a round that uses
two steel anchor balls and suspends a small chain or wire between them (nasty
for anything it hits, but more "interesting" than practical unless you need to
cut ropes or something).

[Tomb] A buddy in the a police force sent
me an advisory they were issued that showed the effects of the dragonsbreath
rounds. Rather.... violently pyrotechnic. And not something you'd want to be
on the other side of. It showed a test against a ballistic vest with
reinforcing plating. The ballistic fabric was destroyed and the plating was
bent and twisted by the impact of the dragonsbreath shot. These things will
kill a shotgun barrel, but with a metalstorm like barrel, you might not care
and they do hideous things at range under 30 ft. if you don't care about the
pyrotechnic side effects.

Some interesting links:
http://www.mkballistics.com/special.htm
http://www.ozarkmtns.com/less-lethal/#Power%20Punch
(note some of the 40mm GL options above!)
http://www.nonlethal.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/sk/sabot/
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/Shotguns.html
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh25-e.htm
(a very good listing)

And a sci-fi (traveller) link:
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/shotgun.html

From: Bradley, Jason (US - Minneapolis) <jabradley@d...>

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 14:01:25 -0800

Subject: RE: Shotguns

Fleet Anti-Terrorist Security Team.

Jason

[quoted original message omitted]

From: Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@h...>

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:08:32 -0800 (PST)

Subject: Re: Shotguns

> --- Thomas Barclay <kaladorn@magma.ca> wrote:

> [Tomb] Will this be select-on-the-fly in

Let's pretend it is. Bilderback's Rule of Science Fiction Devices: Any
argument against the viability of a device in a science fiction story which is
based on current technological shortcomings is invalid if that shortcoming is
accepted as having been overcome within the story's setting. (Sounds obvious,
but you'd be surprised how often it must be invoked)

From: Bradley, Jason (US - Minneapolis) <jabradley@d...>

Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2003 15:11:06 -0800

Subject: RE: Shotguns

I like that and I know what you mean!

Jason

[quoted original message omitted]

From: Kevin Balentine <kevinbalentine@m...>

Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2003 13:37:56 -0600

Subject: Re: Shotguns

In Starfist Book 2, School of Fire, some of the colonial police are armed with
a.70 caliber rifle with five tubular magazines that rotate around the barrel.
Each mag can be loaded with a different kind of ammo: shot, smoke and
explosive are listed in the book.

The books are written by David Sherman and Dan Cragg. While they aren't
"great" literature by any means, they are a lot of fun to read and have some
interesting technology and combat scenes.

> on 2/14/03 5:08 PM, Brian Bilderback at greywanderer987@yahoo.com wrote:

> --- Thomas Barclay <kaladorn@magma.ca> wrote: