[SGish] APC question

G'day guys,

I've got a question for all you APC experienced guys out there. When something
hits your APC and you decide to bail who makes the actual decision? Head of
the APC crew? Head of the infantry unit in the APC? Each joe for himself?

Thanks

> At 12:32 PM +1000 8/12/01, Fulton, Beth (CMR, Hobart) wrote:
Each
> joe for himself?

I'd suspect it's just like that "retreat" call. Could be the CO saying it
could be some scared member of the crew. Likely if all hell has broken loose
the CO will chime in with someone else.

Individuals will have an easier time bailing out depending on their door
location. If they can drop the rear ramp with a lever,(without intervention of
the Track commander) then if they really want out, they will get out.

G'day,

First up, sorry Ryan I've probably sent you half a dozen duplicates this
morning as I'm having to use Outlook of the net (not a pleasant experience)
and to reply to the list I have to reply to all and remember to cut out the
individual who originally sent it... and my memory ain't that good.

> I'd suspect it's just like that "retreat" call.

Having absolutely no military experience, I take it when a "retreat" goes up
everybody just listens ( as if someone says it that mean it) or does some one
try and impose order on the situation (e.g. Sarge) if its not what they want
to see happening?

Thanks

G'day again,

> When my Track was hit there was

Ahh excuse this very dumb follow up, but does that mean you were too wounded
to go anywhere, stuck inside as it jammed something or that a hole suddenly
appeared and you fell out anyway (I said it was dumb!)?

Thanks

> At 12:46 PM +1000 8/12/01, Fulton, Beth (CMR, Hobart) wrote:

ick...make sure you disinfect your hands... :-P

> >I'd suspect it's just like that "retreat" call.
goes up
> everybody just listens ( as if someone says it that mean it) or does

Depends on the situation, leadership and quality of the troops. Look at it
this way, The troops are green, they start taking some heavy fire and all
begin to panic. Likely given a chance some will just run, others will cower.
You'll get situations where some yahoo decides its time to fall back and yells
"retreat". If the troops are poor quality, they may just do that regardless of
what the
officers/NCOs are able to do/say.

Extend that to a tank or APC. A tank will work a bit different given that I
hope that crew has worked together more than infantry riding in an APC will
have.

Take a hypothetical, the APC takes an RPG in the side. Someone gets hit by the
spall off the inside armour. So you get some screaming, some yelling, some
smoke and lots of confusion right after a big *BOOM!* The grunts riding along
will likely bail before the crew does. I'd suspect in game terms that'd almost
be two leadership rolls if the grunts are not organic to the APC.

If you really want to get into it rolling for individual crewmen may do it
right, but that may be too granular. I'd suggest a good old confidence check.
They fail, they bail. Split grunts that don't report to the TC off as a
different set of checks.

On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 12:46:03 +1000 "Fulton, Beth (CMR, Hobart)"
> <Beth.Fulton@marine.csiro.au> writes:

<snip>
> I'd suspect it's just like that "retreat" call.

See below for caveat Emptor but 'retreat' doesn't brook delay (unless you're
Horatio at the bridge) and sometimes it's a panicked individual's voice
calling retreat before it's necessary that has more then once caused a shaken
but intact group of warriors to become a fleeing mob. That's why orders like
'retreat', 'pull back,' etc. are not the arena of common soldiers and
restricted in general to decisions by Squad leaders, Officers, Platoon
Sergeants, etc. Otherwise the most shaken guy in the unit would be calling it
at the most inopportune times...

> Thanks

Well, Beth, take this with a grain of salt because I was a USAF Hospital
(Ortho clinic the last four years) type stationed CONUS all 7+ years -
but a voice that you recognize and are used to obeying (say of your Squad
Leader) cuts loose with a clearly understood command "might" stop/delay
your departing the APC but I expect that if you had "bang" and
heat/smoke
and *anyone* indicated any evasive action was advised (verbal or dropping the
ramp and bailing out) that the squad would reorganize outside the APC because
that would be where the majority of it would be...

"Command voice" can have an impact but if you've drilled to evacuate the APC
and it 'looks' like you've been hit significantly I expect you would evaluate
the damage from outside as a rule. Trained reactions take
priority over standing around waiting to see if  fuel/ammo  cooks off
before the NCO orders you out - assuming he/she  isn't KIA/WIA...

Gracias,

G'day guys,

Thanks for the comments (by the way I'm gald you survived Don!!!), next dumb
question...

I vaguely remember there being a long and comprehensive discussion about
whether people bailing out of vehicles were suppressed. Unfortunately I can't
remember the end result, was it a yes they are or no they're not?

Thanks

Beth,

When my Track was hit there was no decision involved, just a fluke of nature
lol!

> G'day guys,

Beth, You always try to impose order, needed or not.....just habit..)

Beth, No I was catapulted about a 100 feet or so and hit the ground real hard,
the force of the blast (mine) just knocked the commanders seat that I was
standing on out of the track with me on it as I said it was quite a fluke. I
got only a bunch of broken bones but no burns or shrapnel, very lucky! My
driver not a scratch, my other crew had a few cuts and some minor shrapnel.
But everyone made it, was found that the bad guys planted the mine wrong,
good thing......)

> Beth

> At 10:32 PM -0700 8/11/01, Don M wrote:

Balkans!!??? Launched out of the track with only a few broken bones. I've read
more than a few incidents where TCs left part of their bodies behind when
playing the part of a cannon ball. Lucky lucky man. I'm glad you're still
around to talk about it.

I suspect Beth is wondering wether your crew bailed when you were exiting the
track. You didn't happen to see them on the return phase of your arc did you?

</dark humor>....

Was this in a Bradly or a M113?

> At 2:36 PM +1000 8/12/01, Fulton, Beth (CMR, Hobart) wrote:

I think most of us were of the opinion that they would be.

> Ryan

> At 3:20 AM -0700 8/12/01, Don M wrote:

!!!! Ack.

> >we had in there duffels ect and most of the ammo and all

Jeeze. lucky lucky lucky. So many things contributed to you guys not brewing
up. Nearly no powder in the turret, a poorly placed mine.

One thing you should consider is that most if not all modern U.S. tracks (at
least M1, M2-3 {bradleys}, 113 and variants) have a fire suppress system
that is triggered by fire or explosion that contains halon, a gass that
bonds with O2 makeing it unavalable to fuel the fire/explosion. Oh and
unadvalable to the crew/passangers so it is a real go Idea to get out.

Ron (ex US army track mechanic)

[quoted original message omitted]

Beth,

I think it is going to be 2 separate rolls.

The infantry section in the APC is going to react to the
smoke/boom/fire/etc
and if the APC is not moving they are going to get out. This would be
represented by a roll from the Squad/Section leader of the infantry
inside. I would give a minus to the test (They really want to be outside the
APC if
it is smoking/just hit) to remain inside.  They should immediately fan
out some meters from the APC and go to ground covering their sector (Prolly
not need a suppression but I would say they cannot move further that turn).
This will take place unless the Squad/Section leader immediately stops
them. If the APC is still moving and seems like it is going to remain doing so
they should remain inside and wait for their Squad leader to tell them what to
do.

The APC Crew is going to try to remain in the APC and get it working. For them
the TC (track commander) should roll as it will be his decision to give up the
APC if it is unfunctional. It may take a turn for them to bail out as they
will be going through their immediate action drills to try to
restart/emergency start/etc) the APC.

Bob

[quoted original message omitted]

> At 2:12 AM -0700 8/13/01, Ron Abitz wrote:
tracks (at
> least M1, M2-3 {bradleys}, 113 and variants) have a fire suppress

There are effective fire suppressants even now that aren't quite like Halon
but still accomplish the same effect. The basic effect of the suppressant is
to cool the combustion source below its flash temperature and restrict oxygen
flow at the same time.

Energen is an example of one that is Argon, CO2 and Nitrogen. The increased
content of CO2 increases respiration rate in humans.

For practical concepts, SG vehicles will likely have a fire suppression
system, but will likely not have the same issue to the occupants.

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 02:12:14 -0700
From: "Ron Abitz" <abitz@richpoor.com>
Subject: Re: [SGish] APC question

One thing you should consider is that most if not all modern U.S. tracks (at
least M1, M2-3 {bradleys}, 113 and variants) have a fire suppress system
that is triggered by fire or explosion that contains halon, a gass that
bonds with O2 makeing it unavalable to fuel the fire/explosion. Oh and
unadvalable to the crew/passangers so it is a real go Idea to get out.

Ron (ex US army track mechanic)

err close but not quite... Halon systems are designed to support life but not
the fire. I won't go into all the gory details but that is why people are
still allowed to used them for mission critical systems ( Airport control
centres, hospitals etc) even though they are really bad for the environment.

Newer systems use a mixture of gasses including nitrogen and CO2 but are hard
design for non fixed installations as you have to get the o2 levels low enough
to not support combustion but high enough to support life....(strangely the
CO2 is used to get the human breathing reflex to take faster breaths and so
survive in low O2 situations!)

(ex Fire Protection Engineer)

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> On Wed, 15 Aug 2001, Flynn Richardson wrote:

> err close but not quite... Halon systems are designed to support life

Odd. From the instructions I've heard for (automatic) halon firefighting
equipment, one has to clear the room/vehicle IMMEDIATELY.

Not saying you are wrong, just boggled here.

Cheers,

> One thing you should consider is that most if not all modern U.S.
tracks
> (at
<snip>
> Newer systems use a mixture of gasses including nitrogen and CO2 but

Someone said recently that we have on this list an expert for pretty much
anything. I was sceptical - lots of military folk sure, scientists yes,
lots of general knowledge folk...

Well, I stand corrected.:)

> Odd. From the instructions I've heard for (automatic) halon

I've had exactly the same instruction in a new installation. If the Halon goes
off, exit immediately. Otherwise you'll die.

> . I'm not an expert, but have breathed Halon; interesting experience,

> I do know the folks that installed it stated it was tricky to get the

> In large spaces, such as our computer room, the stuff comes out at

> I'm tempted to mention stupid halon tricks, but this has gone WAY OT.

> The_Beast

Not sure of the technicalities but I do know that breathing the stuff is very
unpleasant. I had an extinguisher discharge accidentally in a vehicle I was
in. There followed a general struggle to locate the thing, get it stopped, and
to open up as many doors as possible to vent the stuff. It felt like I had
lost half my lung capacity at the time. For the original topic it made me want
to get out.

John

I was lead to beleave that halon was actually a dense gas, and if inhailed
would sit in the lungs, and the normal breathing wouldn`t be enough to expell
it. It would accumalate, and block any chance of breathing. Standing on your
head when away from the halon would work I suppose <G>.

[quoted original message omitted]

Odd. From the instructions I've heard for (automatic) halon firefighting
equipment, one has to clear the room/vehicle IMMEDIATELY.

Not saying you are wrong, just boggled here.

Cheers,

   Derk

You will of course note that I never said that you would enjoy the
experience.. Just that you can still operate in it. Its main claim to fame is
that for mission critical applications people can continue to work for quite a
period of time. Its not nice for landing aircraft if the control tower
suddenly drops out of the communication loop!

The biggest problem designing the system is balancing the flow required in the
given time to extinguish the fire but also keep the operating environment from
being obscured. Nozzle placement is vital! I used to hate doing computer suits
as it is impossible to get people to realise that when you change equipment
around you have to recheck the design. (What do you mean, I have to spend more
money on some thing I already own, didn't you design it right the first time!)

It is even more vital with the new systems as if you change the volume of the
protected space you change the amounts of gas needed for the system to work.
Add more equipment and the volume of the protected space goes down and Hence
the CO2 levels go up.. People fall asleep... and Die. Remove equipment and the
volume goes up Inert Gas levels go down and the fire is not put out.. same
consequences.

Another side note as most countries have signed up to the removal of Halon
systems there has been the dodgy practice of just hooking up CO2 systems to
the old Halon pipe work..... Not a pretty picture....

> Biff,
The halon is not
> in of it self deadly but the concentrations used to quickly extinguish