Hi folks!
It's been a while since my last ww2 question so I thought I'd give you guys
and girls something new to discuss;)
While our standard games a running along fine, we haven't tried the workings
of heavy weapons as such (Maxim & MG42 beeing the only ones we have;)). But
now small recon vehicles and tanks are beginning to pop so I have begun the
conversion of this part of the rules as well.
What I can't seem to find rules about firing twinlinked or even quad
linked weapons - only how to pay the cost for them when constructing
vehicles..
I am looking at creating twin 20mm flak guns as well as flakvierlings (quad).
It seems like you would have a bigger chance of hitting something when you
have 4 barrels firing at the same time instead of only one.
On to artillery - how would you create artillery pieces like
Stalinorgans and nebelwerfers? Should the be treated like multuple rounds
artillery (hope not, since I am in the recieving end of the
stalinorgan ;-| ) or with larger templates/more damage? They are already
in the large calibre end of the scale...
Thats all for now :-)
Cheers!
> On 18-Oct-02 at 14:52, Claus Paludan (cpaludan@worldonline.dk) wrote:
We roll an extra FP die for each extra weapon.
The issue with multiple mounts of MG's and light cannon is mass- a
single guy can swing a.50 caliber on a pintle mount with reasonable accuracy.
Twin mounts and larger require some sort of mechanical traverse mechanism,
these are usually electrical in nature. Most are fast tracking mounts (as fast
as 90 degrees per second) but trade off speed for accuracy. It would be
difficult to traverse in really small increments (1 degree or less) since just
tapping on the traverse pedal
would probably slide the mount across 3-4 degrees of arc. In addition,
most multiple mounts in WW2 are used in an AA role and their sights are built
accordingly (i.e. used for tracking fast, large targets hundreds or thousands
of yards away), not for guys laying prone 100 yards away.
This isn't to say that you can't use them in an anti-personnel role,
since just the volume of fire is tremendous (i.e. US Maxton(?) mount with 4 x
.50 M2's) but the accuracy would be much lower.
Also remember that some of the weapons had quirks - like the 20 mm
flakvierlings which are limited to 20 round magazines, not belt fed.
This means even though the gun is capable of 300+ rounds per minute, the
real rate of fire is far below this since every 5 seconds the magazine needs
to be swapped out. Against aircraft this is not a problem since you probably
aren't going to see any given aircraft for more than 5 seconds, but against a
bunch of spread out infantry with bazookas, you probably would wish for
something a little more sustained (like an MG).
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
> I am looking at creating twin 20mm flak guns as well as flakvierlings
I'd be interested to hear whether these weapons had their barrels parallel (in
which case I'd think you wouldn't have much greater chance of hitting but
would do more damage) or divergent (vice versa)
fre, 2002-10-18 kl. 20:55 skrev Roger Books:
> We roll an extra FP die for each extra weapon.
Ahh, but you don't roll FP for heavy weapons, while firing or is there
something that I missed?
fre, 2002-10-18 kl. 21:11 skrev B Lin:
> The issue with multiple mounts of MG's and light cannon is mass- a
We probably won't use them very much, but I like to be prepared for the odd
player that turns a twin 20mm gun against incomming infantry;)
fre, 2002-10-18 kl. 21:35 skrev laserlight@quixnet.net:
> I'd be interested to hear whether these weapons had their barrels
Yes, they would be parallel - and I would say that 4 bullets flying
towards a target would have a greater chance of hitting a group of people than
one single bullet would have:)
Yes and no. The Maxton mount has 4.50 caliber MG's, two per side. The
operator sits between the guns. There is about 2 1/2 feet between the
guns - enough for a person to fit between. If you slide the mount a
little left or right, then only 2 guns are on a human-sized target, the
other two are hitting just to the left or right of the target. If the guns are
harmonized (i.e. cross their fire) at a certain range, then anything short of
that range will probably get hit by all 4, but anything much past the
harmonizing range will be missed by all 4.
The question then is, are 4 bullets that are less aimed more effective than 1
bullet more accurately aimed? Comparative examples might be MG
fire vs. rifle fire or Semi-auto fire vs bolt action fire. In both of
those cases, the general thought is that the more rapid fire is less accurate
per shot, but you fire so many more shots that the effect is the same or
greater (mostly for morale effect, since having 100 bullets flying around you
is going to make you more nervous than having 10 flying about).
In game terms, you might give multiple mounts a better FP die, but not twice
or quadruple what the regular weapon gets. A one die shift for a double mount
and a two die shift for a quad mount might be appropriate.
A quick game comparison would be to take 2 MG's and see what kind of damage
they can do on two individual rolls then see what a twin mount can do with one
roll shifted to a higher die.
--Binhan
> -----Original Message-----
My take on this issue is that the idea isn't to make every bullet count, the
idea is too use the immense firepower of say, a quad.50 to supress the enemy
until flanking fire can be brought to bear. The issue
of 20mm+ multiple mounts is different altogether, snce
they can and will fire HE projectiles. One 20mm HE wont do much, it might hit
the wrong side of a small tree or fly past, but four such projectiles, fired
at a rate of about 450 rpm, is bound to cause havoc in a manner completely
different from an MG. Then there might be some more losses.
I have no idea wht this can be made up into in game terms, but I just felt
like I had to throw my $0.02 into this...:)
Now, feel free to expertize this to shreds. I like getting my opinions thrown
overboard.:)
-----original message very snipped-------
> Yes and no. The Maxton mount has 4 .50 caliber
> --- Claus Paludan <cpaludan@worldonline.dk> wrote:
> On to artillery - how would you create artillery
In SG, I do not consider it to be useful objective! Or if you must, they kill
everyone not under hard cover. Remember, these things are in batteries, so the
minimum number of round hitting will be 24 to 80.
Bye for now,
lør, 2002-10-19 kl. 02:53 skrev John Leary:
> --- Claus Paludan <cpaludan@worldonline.dk> wrote:
Ahh - I am well aware of their lethality, but I'd still like to have
stats for them. We might end up using them as prebombardments or as part of
large battles with one or two companies involved. This will most
definately not be the norm, but as we are a historical wargaming club -
people like to see the stats for such things - if nothing else to
compare them to the other artillery thingies. The chance of artillery hitting
a SG battlefield isn't that big, but still rules are written for the
occaisonal scenario where they actually do;) This is what I am looking for
here as well;)
Cheers!
fre, 2002-10-18 kl. 23:25 skrev Johan Böjeryd:
> My take on this issue is that the idea isn't to make
Yes, I would think this a fair use of the weapon. Besides a truck loaded with
enemies might not like the idea of 4 barrels of 20mm HE firing at
it ;)
I remember doing a Vietnam game and the look of horror when I dropped the
burst template for a battery on the table (@11x17") and that was for 81mm
mortars! Back in the early '80s during a Army simulation (ground scale 1"=50m)
the burst template for a battery of MRL (Soviet) was around 18x24".
Michael Brown
[quoted original message omitted]
So, no solutions or ideas on how to implement these types of guns?
Regarding the twin/quad problem I was thinking of shifting the fire
control system die one up for each gun - since we always use a D4 the
weapons aren't that powerful from the beginning. But this will end up
putting the flakvierling up to a D12 - a bit high. Or one could say that
the dice gets shifted for each pair of guns, D6 for twin 20mm AA, and D8 for
flakvierling.
About the artillery - still no clue what to do - except that they have
got to HURT;)
/cheers
> fre, 2002-10-18 kl. 23:25 skrev Johan Böjeryd:
Why bother with HE? The vulcan (20mm) fires about 5000 rounds per minute (80
per second) at ground targets and by today standards is considered obsolescent
(as ground based AA). The Israeli army still uses it to
supress/take
out ground targets. Consider the effect:
One pass with a 10 second burst will put out 800 rounds and if fired at a
target
area of 100 yards will put out 8 rounds per yard or 2 -3 rounds per
foot. These rounds will not be stopped by trees, bushes, packed dirt or flak
vests. If the target has been identified then a 2 second burst at a 2 yard
wide target
will not leave very much left.
The main reason the Vulcan is considered obsolescent as an AA weapon is that
most aircraft use standoff weapons today and will out range it.
> they can and will fire HE projectiles. One 20mm HE
Even the German single barrel 20mm AA gun of the 1970-1980 time frame
were over 1000 rounds per minute. The rates of fire you are talking about are
WWII.
> manner completely different from an MG.
After a 3 second burst from a single barrel AA gun the question is more like
what truck.
On Monday, October 21, 2002 12:19 PM, Scott Siebold
> [SMTP:gamers@ameritech.net] wrote:
Umm, Scott; check the subject header...
-----------snip snip----------
> at
That was the subject, right?:)
> [SMTP:gamers@ameritech.net] wrote:
What SGII (Star Grunt II - SciFi) or GZG (Ground Zero Games - maker of
SciFi figures/rules).
I didn't know that you were restricting topics to WWII but rather discussing
the uses of auto cannons in ground combat as it would apply to a SciFi game.
But if you want me to add WWII:
The 50 cal was in duel MANUAL mounts on US PT boats where space was limited.
The
50 cal on the APC (halftrack - WWII) was primarily used as an AA weapon
due to the fact that the military use at that time called for the APC to be a
combat transport and not as direct fighting vehicle. If you lost the APC's you
ended up with poorly equipped ground ponders who couldn't keep up with the
armor that they usually were mutually supporting.
With about 14 halftracks per US APC company (equipped with 50 cal and 30
cal machineguns
in as many numbers as they could get) of WWII this allowed fire from 14+
separate sources with multiple mounts on each vehicle (as needed were put on
in the field). The duel 50 cal mount was really not needed on the APC not due
to inaccuracy but due to it just not being needed (better two mounts and two
gunners).
By the way, for my WWII collection I have in 50 cal single, duel and quad
towed AA guns and single (OK APC and jeep), duel, quad and hybrid (duel 50 cal
with 1 37mm
cannon) vehicle mounted AA guns. Then there are the 30cal, 20mm, 40mm and 90mm
for the US AA. But no US 120mm AA that is made.
Then there are the German, Russian, British, Japanese, Italians in my WWII
collection but that's another story.
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 15:55:59 -0500, Scott Siebold <gamers@ameritech.net>
wrote:
> What SGII (Star Grunt II - SciFi) or GZG (Ground Zero Games - maker of
The subject line is "[SGII][WW2] Here we go again." The "[WW2]" indicates that
the original poster was talking about World War II in this thread.