OK, one of the nicest thing about SGII is a viable supression mechanism, which
represents what most rounds sent downrange in combat do.
One of the points constantly harped upon by it's detractors is the lack of
aliens in the Warhammer motif.
It is theorized by many people that a fear of death is a human characteristic
(which fails to explain why a species would survive long enough to get to the
stars if there isn't a survival urge) and hence certain aliens should not be
affected by supression. Or maybe they just don't like spending all that time
pulling supression markers.
Hence a number of conversions of SGII to various alien species. And in a
number of these conversions, the notation is made that this or that group is
'immune to supression'.
Let me propose that supression is a survival reflex in a combat
zone--getting small and inconspicuous behind something solid sounds like
sane thing to do, at least in the short term. Hence those who aren't
supressed--the uber-macho[1] who ignore those bullet whizzing around and
leap manfully into the fray--are going to be a LOT easier to hit.
So my suggestion is thus: For every thing there is a tradeoff, also known as
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Suppose for a moment that if
Species X is immune to supression, then ALL sucesses should count as major
sucesses. This would mean that there is a chance of one or two casualties
every time they are fired upon. This would allow things like Rorke's Drift In
Space. Right now it would be heavily
skewed in favor of the non-supressed side. They can leap up and charge
in serried ranks of massed alienity, but they are no easier to hit than
a Boer Commandoe low-crawling through the woods and using proper
Individual Movement Techniques. This evens things out a little bit. It's not
extreme enough to allow for the effects of shooting into dense, close
formations (pike phalanxes, Napoleonic lines. Zulu Impis, or force of Reiters)
but should even the odds in favor of those brave Terrans battling fearsome
"Thingies with Lots of Spikey Bits."
> At 10:43 AM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
Ironically, I just spent last night converting this rule (and a handful of
others) to ShockForce: http://www.voicenet.com/~johncrim/Starforce.html
,
if anyone's curious.
> One of the points constantly harped upon by it's detractors is the lack
No, no, no! You are making the classic mistake of ascribing human
characteristics to alien thought patterns. Among human beings, it is a safe
assumption that anyone who is unafraid of enemy fire is either stupid or
somehow crazed. Among aliens...this isn't necessarily the case. Sure,
it could work that way--but it doesn't have to. Consider: there is a
great deal of difference between being *afraid* of death and simply being
*aware* of it.
Take a look at Xaarg, cheerfully trotting his way across the battlefield.
Bullets are continually whipping their way past him, making (he thinks to
himself) a rather pleasing sound as they do. Does he let the bullets slow him
down though? No! After all, if he gets shot he'll probably die...and if he
doesn't get shot, he'll *certainly* die, eventually. Why worry about
it? Of course, being a sensible fellow, Xaarg is being cautious--he
keeps
low, and uses the available cover as he moves--because, when you think
about it, he'll have an eternity to enjoy death, while life is a strictly
temporary affair. When it gets right down to it, though, he's not going to let
himself be pinned down by enemy fire, because his desire to achieve his goal
(defeat the foe) outweighs his desire to keep on living.
> So my suggestion is thus: For every thing there is a tradeoff, also
Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent to human
beings? Sure, some of them may be. Some of them will be inferior. Others will
be superior. Some will be VERY superior. Deal with it. That's what I like
about the Kra'vak; on a one to one basis, humans are going to lose every
single time. As a result the terrans are forced to use their brains, rather
than just their guns. Works for me.
I've found that the best way to represent the alien psyche is not through
mechanics, but through simple roleplaying. When I am running an Imperial force
(GW Marines), I make an effort to push them into melee...and most of them die,
as a result. Does it make sense for them to behave like this? No. Then why do
they do it? Because that's how they think. And because it makes for a fun and
different game.
When I am playing the Old Ones (GW Eldar, kinda), I will keep all melees on
a man-to-man basis--any extra soliders will stand aside until they have
an opponent. Why? Because otherwise it wouldn't be fair. And it combat is not
fair, it is not honorable. And if it is not honorable, what's the
point? The Old Ones fight strictly as a form of worship--they have
nothing
more to gain at this point--and thus they will do it only on their
terms.
Admittedly, the suppression mechanism tends to be somewhat overused for
aliens. It is, however, the most obvious mechanical way to make them behave in
an...alien fashion. You can make your xenos faster, stronger, tougher, etc.,
but there are not that many ways to force them to *behave* differently. Stick
to roleplaying 'em for that, sez I.
> John Crimmins wrote:
> No, no, no! You are making the classic mistake of ascribing human
Nope--I am assuming that bullets travel in the same patterns regardless
of whether you are human or not. The first rounds will likely miss, but
further ones will hit the guy as the SAW gunner walks his bursts across the
target and onto the heads of anyone stupid enough to have it
sticking up. Ditto all those prox-fuzed grenades, gauss rounds, etc.
> Take a look at Xaarg, cheerfully trotting his way across the
Right.
> Bullets are continually whipping their way past him, making (he thinks
Here's the problem: Private Snuffy watching Xaarg. Now, Snuffy doesn't want to
die either, and he's watching this big scary Thing With Spikey Bits (herein:
TWSB) coming towards him. Xaarg isn't hiding behind rocks or becoming one with
Mother Rdsorspha or otherwise taking cover because
the gamer has declared "TWSBs are immune to supression"--Xaarg isn't
taking the time (burning an action) to do so. So Snuffy is going to put a 4mm
gauss round between Xaarg's sensory organs (although this may be a
bad idea--TWSB are probably sexually aroused by this or something).
> if he doesn't get shot, he'll *certainly* die, eventually. Why worry
Then why isn't he taking cover when the bullets come downrange? That's
supression!
> Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent to
Law of Nature. No such thing as free lunch. Physics is damned equitable.
> I've found that the best way to represent the alien psyche is not
Roleplaying requires rules. If you 'roleplay' your TWSB are going to ignore
the bullets whipping around, then you should also 'roleplay' your TWSB get
shot more often.
***
> Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent to
Law of Nature. No such thing as free lunch. Physics is damned equitable.
***
Well, aside from the concept of LAW OF NATURE (if the force of your argument
is to put it in caps, go all out) having fallen into somewhat disfavor, as
what we perceive as such oft times turns out to be just that, a perception,
this works most of the time.
Equitable? The man also said: TANJ.
***
Roleplaying requires rules. If you 'roleplay' your TWSB are going to ignore
the bullets whipping around, then you should also 'roleplay' your TWSB get
shot more often.
***
Unless the movie works differently. Have you read the intro to Stargrunt?
Maybe it does die more often. Maybe it can't learn there are competitors
capable of doing it real damage, and it just runs into the guns anyway. Maybe
it wastes
half-a-dozen enemy before the puny pop guns finally hit something vital,
aka, Starship Troopers movie.
Still, I tend to agree with you. They should be more likely to get hit.
The_Beast
> At 12:52 PM 2/15/99 -0500, you wrote:
You are acting like there are only two ways to respond to incoming fire:
freeze or go into a beserk frenzy. This is not the case.
> if he doesn't get shot, he'll *certainly* die, eventually. Why worry
Because he doesn't feel threatened by them. He hears a gunshot. He looks down.
He sees that he has no holes in his body (none that weren't there before, at
least), he shrugs and moves on. He doesn't drop to the ground and worry about
being hit. The human instict is to freeze when threatened, but some aliens are
going to have different instincts. Have you ever walked by a bush and had a
rabbit suddenly tear out, run right in front of
you, and then zig-zag across the field until he reaches his hole? The
smart thing to do would have been to stay hidden--you wouldn't have seen
him in the first place. Instinct dictated otherwise, so he runs...in such a
fashion as to minimize the chance of being caught. He doesn't just march
across the field, pausing frequently to allow you time to aim. If that rabbit
had been aggresive and armed, and if you had a gun, are you absolutely certain
that you could have dropped him before he got into position to kill you? And
believe me, those rabits can be nasty little bastards....
According to the rules, (SGII, page 18) suppression is when a unit "is fired
upon effectively enough for it's members to FEEL IN DANGER of being hit
(whether of not any of them actually are) and THUS ARE INHIBITED FROM ACTIONS
THAT WOULD EXPOSE THEM TO FURTHER RISK." Emphasis, obviously, is mine. If
something doesn't feel endangered, it's not going to be suppressed. But that
doesn't mean that they are going to walk boldly across the battlefield, waving
a big sign that says "Alien season! Shoot me! Shoot me now!" An alien under
fire might stop...but perhaps he'd just
slow down a bit, or go into overdrive (like Niven/Pournelle/Barnes'
Gendels), or take to the trees, or activate his holographic cammo suit, or
instantly evaluate the threat (realizing that at THIS range, from THAT angle,
the enemy has only a.000234% chance of hitting him) and just ignore it. There
are many ways to react.
> Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent to
Nonsense. Are you saying that if Antarans are 20% faster than humans they must
then be 20% weaker to balance it out? An alien can't be faster, stronger,
smarter, and more technologically advanced all at once? I don't
see why not--especially when you take genegineering into account. The
universe is not always (or even usually) fair.
> I've found that the best way to represent the alien psyche is not
your
> TWSB get shot more often.
Reasonable people already do this. When it comes to the Imperials...they *do*
get shot more often. Q.E.D. They welcome death, so they don't try very hard to
avoid it. I've previously noted how I make the Imperials easier targets
because of the combination of their great size and their suicidal tendencies.
However, I also make use of tactics that I normally would not (such as
charging at every opportunity, pressing obviously doomed assaults, jumping on
top of an enemy tanks) that are in no way mandated by the rules, house or
otherwise. And yes, they suffer for it. That's part of the fun.
However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I would NOT
make them easier to hit, and I would NOT have them suppressed by enemy fire.
Different situation, different instincts, different behavior.
> John M. Atkinson wrote:
> ILet me propose that supression is a survival reflex in a combat
I agree completely but here's a possibly spin. I see it like this. An alien
may not fear death, OK I can accept that may occasionally be, since there have
been many instances of human cultures >Subduing< their fear of death for the
good of some cultural imperitive. But still, I may not fear death, but does
that mean I am going to stick my hand in the fire and wacth it burn off? F**k
no. Getting killed stupidly before accompishing your mission should be viewed
upon in some these races in the same vein as cowardice. I think ONE possible
work around (in support of John's other good idea) is that you can still
supress Alien X.
(Hitting the ground is a reflex), but he shucks it off auto-magically at
the end of the turn. You could make it harder to acheive a suppression result
and also make recovery of suppression easier, but it should still have some
effect OR you go with huigher casualties.
Of course some races are legit with the no fear no casualties IMO, for
example, Tyrannids or SST Arachnids. But they should be balanced with much
more rigid control systems or whatever.
<snip lots>
good argument. I agree.
> From a game perspective, having enemies who are better, faster,
Numbers, maybe. Or scenario design where your objectives are not to go
head-to-head. If you are fighting an enemy who is better, outnumbers
you, has better positions, etc then it's a matter of rolling dice to see how
fast your models get taken off the table. No fun. You build in the fun with
creative story in the scenario design. No reason why you shouldn't be
outclassed - certainly not from a "nature" point of view, or an SF one
either. Just make it fun from a gaming perspective.
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
> Nonsense. Are you saying that if Antarans are 20% faster than humans
While the above may certainly be true, having a game with two different sides,
one of them being superior in everything, wouldn't be much fun. If sides
aren't "fair" in some fashion, the game will suck.
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
It's something of a dramatic device in movies, creating creatures that don't
suffer from the same weaknesses humans do to illustrate those weaknesses, then
exalt in the strength of the human spirit in overcoming those weaknesses and
triumph over the "superior" forces.
These are movies, after all, made for humans.
As far as Aliens are concerned - compare the body count total between
the Marines and the Aliens, and see who was harder to hit in a fight (not a
lot
of Aliens low-crawling....)
In a message dated 99-02-15 18:24:35 EST, you write:
<< While the above may certainly be true, having a game with two different
sides, one of them being superior in everything, wouldn't be much fun. If
sides aren't "fair" in some fashion, the game will suck. >> Ambush, the clasic
MO for forces with infearer tech, at short range you can slap a sapper's pack
onto the tanks of the ambushed force.
-Stephen
> At 05:21 PM 2/15/99 -0600, you wrote:
If
> sides aren't "fair" in some fashion, the game will suck.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be any balancing factor--superior
numbers, a defensive position, me rolling dice for the aliens ("Hey, he
pressed his ray gun against my head, and he *still* missed! How'd he
*do*
that?"). I'm just saying that it's a little absurd (and boring) to say that
one human is exactly equivalent to one Kra'vak, who is exactly equivalent to
one Martian, who is exactly equivalent to one Whatchamacallit. Aliens are
alien, and we can't logically expect to meet them all on precisely equal
terms. Now, personally, I wouldn't *want* to game with omnipotent aliens...but
I wouldn't mind gaming *against* them every once in a while. I like a
challenge, and I like variety.
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
And it makes for a good game, too. You don't want to do it every single
week, but it can be a lot of fun as a one-off scenario.
> As far as Aliens are concerned - compare the body count total between
Very true, but the Aliens were operating in very close quarters, with limited
means of access to their goal, and were literally crawling all over each other
in their efforts to get to the Marines. They normally moved in a crouch, or on
all fours, and they blended well with the
terrain--outside,
or in the hive, things would have gone differently. And consider the first
movie, in which one Alien wipes out the entire crew of the Nostromo. No, they
didn't have big guns...but the Alien didn't just run down the corridors at
them, either.
And please, don't consider the third and fourth movies. Ever. "Aliens:
Ressurection" easily had the most absurd climax that I've ever seen.
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
> As far as Aliens are concerned - compare the body count total between
While I haven't played SGII this was an interesting topic, so I thought I
would through my thoughts in the ring as well. When modelling alien races, I
think you would have to separate what makes the aliens unit INDIVIDUALLY form
how they would react as a group in combat. Aliens is a good example. As
individuals they kick human butt, being bigger, stronger, faster, and
inherently deadly(what with the acid blood and all). But, as a group they pale
next to a well trained human platoon. Bigger, sronger, faster doesn't do you a
whole lot of good if you don't duck every now and then. Personally, any alien
race that cannot be suppressed, and is on a technological footing thats worth
fighting against, would attack in either a)hordes, or b)very small, but very
deadly groups. The hordes are easy to picture. If you've got 100 to 1 odds,
your chances of finding cover are pretty small anyway. While b) type races can
just be SO good finding and fighting form cover that they can never be
effectively suppressed.
On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:43:23 -0500, "John M. Atkinson"
> <john.m.atkinson@erols.com> wrote:
> It is theorized by many people that a fear of death is a human
I agree that the flight/fight reflex is probably inherent in most
intelligent species everywhere as it is a pretty simple survival instinct.
However, I also think that it's possible to suppress this instinct. We've only
been "civilized" for, what, 10,000 years if you count back to domesticated
animals? 5000 if you look at constructed civilizations? I can see an alien
race that has been civilized for a stink of a long time not having any real
fear (say, a race without anything to worry about for 1 billion years?). I can
also see hive mind races and races using mind numbing combat drugs.
But, your point is well taken.
> So my suggestion is thus: For every thing there is a tradeoff, also
I can agree with your line of reasoning on this. One thing, though. I don't
think it should count for a unit "in position". This represents a unit still
in firing capability but protecting themselves. You MIGHT not want to give
them the In Position die shift, but I feel you should not treat them as Major
Successes automatically.
> devans@uneb.edu wrote:
Physics is a law of nature. Last time I checked. If you like playing in
different universe, you're welcome to it.
> John Crimmins wrote:
> You are acting like there are only two ways to respond to incoming
Nope. Let's say you are walking through the woods. All of a sudden, someone
starts shooting at you. Do you A)Continue to walk through the woods, or B)Hide
behind something solid and return fire in an unaimed and ineffective manner.
What other choices are there? If you take cover, you're supressed. If you
don't, you very, very likely to get
hit. You can run in various directions--would you then suggest instead
of supression the target gets another activation to move?
> Because he doesn't feel threatened by them. He hears a gunshot. He
Dropping to the ground is minimizing target area. You continue to walk, you're
maximizing.
> >> Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent to
No. I'm responding to the 'why not'. Bullets act the same regardless
of what species you are--and humans continue to act the same. Take a
moving target. If you only get one shot at it before it hits the ground, you
probably won't hit it unless it's either close, moving slowly, or you're a
good shot. If it continues to stay up and moving, you will eventually hit it.
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
Of course, they only fight at close quarters, in the rain, in the middle of
night, etc... No time to get supressed.:)
***
Physics is a law of nature. Last time I checked.
***
No it isn't. Check again.
The_Beast
> Los wrote:
> Of course some races are legit with the no fear no casualties IMO, for
Not sure what SST stands for, but the Starfire (TFG/SDS) Arachnids *did*
take massive casualties since they didn't hit the ground when shot at.
OK, they were tough bastards - even their "walking wounded" would keep
advancing (or trying to) - but even so, their casualties were extremely
high.
Later,
> Allan Goodall wrote:
> I can agree with your line of reasoning on this. One thing, though. I
Yipe! Good call.
> At 12:22 AM 2/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
For a human? Well, you can hide behind something solid and wait, trying to
figure out where the bullets are coming from--and then fire when you've
got an idea of where to aim (this kind of presence of mind is quite rare,
however). For an alien...to repeat myself, he might:
Go into overdrive--so instead of being suppressed his speed suddenly
quadruples and he is literally unable to stand still.
Or take to the trees--giving him a combat move that is restricted to
arboreal movement.
Or activate his holographic cammo suit--your effective range is cut in
half as the enemy disappears and you start wishing for Arnie to make an
appearance.
Or instantly evaluate the threat (realizing that at THIS range, from THAT
angle, you've only got a.000234% chance of hitting him) and just ignore it
all--and just keeps on truckin', knowing that he's safe.
If you take
> cover, you're supressed. If you don't, you very, very likely to get
It would be a variation. For a race that's evolved from herbivores, an instant
activation that can only be used to take a combat move AWAY from the enemy
would be interesting. It would make 'em a pain in the ass to game with, but I
could live with that for occasional games.
> Because he doesn't feel threatened by them. He hears a gunshot. He
Dropping to all fours and scurrying through the underbrush wouldn't be
maximizing. And it would not be suppressed, either. This assumes a different
biology, of course. As do a lot of these suggestions of
mine....
I have too many miniatures.
> >> Why not? Where is it written that all Aliens must be equivalent
The
> universe is not always (or even usually) fair.
If it's a small enough target, moving fast enough, you might not. You might
not even see it 'til it's right on top of you. I have these plastic figures
put out by Fortress a few years ago that look kinda like rabbits with REALLY
big teeth, see....
I told you that I have too many miniatures, didn't I?
> However, if I were running Aliens (of the movie of the same name) I
They choose their battlefield, like any smart commander. Or screenwriter....
And doesn't the movie make reference to them being nocturnal? Actually, if I
had the terrain, I'd love to run an Aliens scenario set in an urban
environment. Drop a Queen into the middle of NYC, wait a few weeks, and send
in the Marines.... It would be a bloodbath on both sides, but I think that
they'd eventually have to nuke the city. The Aliens reproduce just too damned
fast.
In a message dated 99-02-16 00:25:43 EST, you write:
<< Nope. Let's say you are walking through the woods. All of a sudden, someone
starts shooting at you. Do you A)Continue to walk through the woods, or B)Hide
behind something solid and return fire in an unaimed and ineffective manner.
What other choices are there? If you take cover, you're supressed. If you
don't, you very, very likely to get
hit. You can run in various directions--would you then suggest instead
of supression the target gets another activation to move? >> That's what some
people do.
-Stephen
In a message dated 99-02-16 00:44:24 EST, you write:
<< Not sure what SST stands for, but the Starfire (TFG/SDS) Arachnids
*did*
take massive casualties since they didn't hit the ground when shot at.
OK, they were tough bastards - even their "walking wounded" would keep
advancing (or trying to) - but even so, their casualties were extremely
high. >> SST=Starship Troopers
-Stephen
> Oerjan Ohlson wrote:
> Los wrote:
STAR SHIP TROOPERS!!!!
Oh by teh way I really did love them arachnids from Weber's book. (one of my
favorite.) To me one of teh coolest things about that book was our complete
and utter inability to ever decypher a single Arachnid communication. The
human race never did and never will no, what was motivating them etc etc, very
cool.
Plus they ate humans....