G'day guys,
> I don't suppose anyone knows of any figures that could be used for
Sorry no, but on a similar line I'd be interested in some Hoka-like
mini's (teddy bears effectively), heck I'd even take Ewoks if I could find
any!
On to the psychology:
You've given us a good start here, my basic advice would be start with the
stereotype (like you have) and then build on it - what is behaviour that
is 'alien' to us and what is behaviour that just wouldn't last the distance
-
modify accordingly.
> My initial thoughts are:
I'll give you this one;)
> -Proud warriors (Kzinti, Klingons, etc.). They fight individually for
Watch out on thsi one, a race/species with this kind of attitude ain't
going to last long in an evolutionary sense. The odd individual 'yes', but as
a general race characteristic I'd steer well clear.
> -Logicians (Vulcans, maybe Moties). They do what is required, what is
That one is OK, but may be harder to play for us. Should lead to some very
large scale cultural misunderstandings on contact...
> -Automatons (robots, undead). They just keep coming. They won't
Not sure I agree wholey with this one either as even the AI of today is
being programmed to learn/adjust at least on a simple scale. Automatons
which don't react would soon be VERY redundant (at least in my opinion).
You could also have them linking together to form larger/different
robots if needed etc.
> -Hive Mind (Buggers, Starship Troopers bugs). All that matters is the
Add to that that each has its particular function, often of limited scope, and
so gaps are filled by reserves not by flexibility of knowledge etc. This also
gives them a critical weakness, separate them from the hive or kill the
"Queen" and its game over (in teh long term). You'd also have to be careful of
the timing of attacks as you woldn't want to hit a colony which is just about
to split in two (that kind of crossfire is more than just plain old hell).
> -Fanatics. Combine aspects of the Hive Mind (the individual is
This is actually a goer (more so than the Proud Warrior by itself), but I
still see this more as a subgroup of the hive mind itself they'd be the
warrior caste/soldiers for the colony.
> -Cowards (Pierson's Puppeteers). Fight with long-range weapons and
I'd choose another name maybe, but this is a goer too. Though I'd put in
some clause about they're expected behaviour when cornered - do they
play dead? Do they suddenly get a personality change? Do they exhibit decoy
behaviour so that they lead you away from vital positions allowing them to
return to their usual long range behaviour?
> -Carnivores (Dreenoi). They're just looking for lunch. First they
Once again nice basis, but a little too simplistic. When carnivores hunt they
hunt then eat. When carnivores are in a battle with threats all around they
just don't stop for a quick snack! In those circumstances they're more than
likely to be wary and chased off no blind to external stimuli. I'd also have
challenges between individuals as they try to advance (they'll
follow the leader just fine until he/she is wounded or killed then its
on for young and old to see who takes over).
> What did I miss?
Just off the top of my head...<if anyone's interested I can look into it a bit
more thoroughly>
-A parasite (be they cyborg or biological) which 'infects' its victims
so they slowly switch sides or are permanently immobilised.
-Hoka-like which take everything literally and adopt 'roles' very
quickly
-Ones that use conditioning/psychology/education and infiltration rather
than straight out weapons...Your Sgt is in't going to be too pleased to hear
"Oh those colours are sooo pretty I think I'll just sit here for a while and
watch..."
Different lifespans wold also add flavour to this - beings who think on
the scale of 100s years are vastly different to thos working with a few
decades.
Cheers
Beth
Excerpts from mail: 20-Oct-99 [SGII] Furry troopers by Beth
Fulton@marine.csiro
> You've given us a good start here, my basic advice would be start with
Well, I wasn't concerned too much about whether or not the behavior made
sense in the long term, because I wasn't trying to create well-adapted
species. Rather, my goal was to be able to handle as many classic SF creatures
as possible. And not all SF creatures are well adapted to
long-term survival.
> >>-Proud warriors (Kzinti, Klingons, etc.). They fight individually
They
> >>refuse to retreat, which gives them staying power but reduced
Of course, that's exactly what starts to happen to the Kzinti in Niven's
books....
Again, I'm just trying to classify pre-existing SF creatures, not to
decide whether or not they "make sense".
> >>-Logicians (Vulcans, maybe Moties). They do what is required, what
I suppose how difficult they'd be to play depends on the personality of the
gamer playing them. Personally, I find that the more dispassionate I get, the
better I do tactically; but there's often a tradeoff in how fun the game is.
What do you mean about large-scale cultural misunderstandings? They'd
dismiss much of human culture as irrelevant, but once the humans
understood that they were rationally self-interested, they'd be
relatively easy to understand.
> >>-Automatons (robots, undead). They just keep coming. They won't
Automatons
> which don't react would soon be VERY redundant (at least in my
I wasn't thinking about extrapolating current, real, technology - I was
thinking along the lines of Krikket (sp?) robots and so forth - dumb and
unrelentless.
You could also have smarter robots, but if they got too smart, they'd turn
into Logicians. So how would you deal with robots of
middle-of-the-road intelligence?
I like the combination idea - I'm ashamed that I didn't think of it,
given that I spent some of last summer working on tiny (3cm cube) military
scout robots that are supposed to be able to join together to overcome
obstacles.
> >>-Hive Mind (Buggers, Starship Troopers bugs). All that matters is
(pun
> >>intended), they do it as a group, not as individuals.
Good ideas. Of course, a smart Hive Mind would avoid putting its Queen in
danger if at all possible (see Ender's Game, by Orson Scott Card).
> >>-Fanatics. Combine aspects of the Hive Mind (the individual is
OK; but you could also have an army of Fanatics (Arab Conquest, WWII Japan) or
individual groups of Fanatics in armies with a different main psychology type
(Berserkers in Viking armies, Ghazis in Turkish armies).
> >>-Cowards (Pierson's Puppeteers). Fight with long-range weapons and
Good questions. The Puppeteers just freaked out and would revert to their
hidden "violent maniac" mode where they'd strike out quickly and effectively
until they could get away. In terms of decoy behavior, maybe we should split
this into Individual Cowards (or whatever) and Collective Cowards (or
whatever), with the Collective Cowards leading you away from vital positions
and the Individual Cowards just caring about their own personal survival.
> >>-Carnivores (Dreenoi). They're just looking for lunch. First they
I'd
> also have challenges between individuals as they try to advance
I was thinking specifically of how I've heard Dreenoi described. So we could
have Oblivious Omnivores and Predators; the latter would make kills, but not
carry them off or start eating unless they felt safe.
> >>What did I miss?
Interesting. This could be combined with any of the other psychological types.
> -Hoka-like which take everything literally and adopt 'roles' very
I'd appreciate it if you'd explain this a bit more - I don't know what
the Hoka are.
> -Ones that use conditioning/psychology/education and infiltration
I'd put that more under the category of weapons, because it affects the enemy
rather than the behavior of the troops.
> Different lifespans wold also add flavour to this - beings who think
I could see this being valuable in background information, but I'm not sure
how it would work for tactical situations. Perhaps caution and acceptance of
losses would be partly functions of age.
> Beth Fulton wrote:
> [quoted text omitted]
> >>-Proud warriors (Kzinti, Klingons, etc.). They fight individually
They
> >>refuse to retreat, which gives them staying power but reduced
Ahhh, today, I watched a documentary about the ancient Roman Empire. They were
discussing the attitudes of the Roman Army. Besides the training, excellent
equipment (for the period), they had a standing order...no retreats.
This stems from the fact that two well trained warriors with shields had a
real problem seriously hurting each other. Only the man who turned and ran,
could be easily hurt. So hense the standing order.
Rome defeated many opposing armies this way. And at it's hight (about
117-120AD), ruled an empire about 2 million square miles for about six
and a half centuries. (Thats about 54% of the land area of present day United
States...with an army of about 850,000 men. Awesome!)
Perhaps a race with the "no retreats" attitude could do quite well, if
properly organized and supplied.
G'day Donald,
> Ahhh, today, I watched a documentary about the ancient Roman Empire.
They were
> discussing the attitudes of the Roman Army. Besides the training,
I'd heard this before, but wouldn't actually mind knowing how often the
rule was broken - did they have organised withdrawals? Or is their
decided lack of a "lets get out of here tactic" part of the reason they're not
still here? <And before I get a lecture on the finer points of the fall of the
Roman Empire I do know there was a HELL of a lot of other factors involved,
thanks.>
> Rome defeated many opposing armies this way. And at it's hight (about
Mmm guess I'm being picky as we'd probably only see the military types on the
board anyway, but I'd say that that was a characteristic of the military of
that race not of the race itself. Bet not to many roman merchants had a "no
retreat rule";)
> Perhaps a race with the "no retreats" attitude could do quite well, if
That'd be the key here.
G'day Steve,
> Well, I wasn't concerned too much about whether or not the behavior
OK, I do take your point about trying to recreate existing SF races. On the
other hand they must have existed for quite a while to get to be SF in the
first place so could it really hurt to round them out and make them make
sense - after all if I suddenly proposed some weapon or device like say
teleporting bombs you'd want some damn good explanation for them right?
> Proud warriors (Kzinti, Klingons, etc.)....
> going to last long in an evolutionary sense.
OK first up I must admit I've never read Niven's books <yeah you can
decapitate me for treason later>, Derek has so I do have some idea here
though. Its fine to have proud warriors just don't make them victim of
their own pride, give them some common sense and rationale - to pick up
on your 2nd e.g. the Klingons, thats exactly what they have, they have some
saying like "To lose a battle to save an Empire is honourable" or something
like that.
> -Logicians (Vulcans, maybe Moties).
OK, maybe it'd be hard for me to play them;)
Using total logic above all else (even hunchs/gut instincts etc) is
(often) hard for humans to do seeings as those gut instincts have helped us an
awful lot in the past.
> What do you mean about large-scale cultural misunderstandings? They'd
I was thinking inital contact at least and then maybe beyond, I know it became
a game in the end, but look how many arguments Bones and Spock had as this as
the fulcrum.
> -Automatons (robots, undead).
OK, so are these a weapon or a race?
> You could also have smarter robots, but if they got too smart, they'd
In some senses like a hive mind, in another sense an ever expanding drone that
really only wants to take over new resources so they can self replicate. There
is no society as such just endeavouring to reproduce and adapting where
necessary to do so. The goal always remains the same its just they may jump
stream if they can't get there in one way. I personally see this different to
logicians (OK this is probably more a matter of degree thing), as logicians
would have a society and all the trappings too, with wider goals and reasoning
etc.
> given that I spent some of last summer working on tiny (3cm cube)
> military scout robots that are supposed to be able to join together to
Cool!
> -Hive Mind (Buggers, Starship Troopers bugs).
Very true, but I was thinking more the "us going to them" trick - we
hunt
down the queen/central node and blow it sky high! There's also the
possibility of hierachical or subminds - ship/region/sector/whole kind
of thing so you only refer locally until you need to go to a higher level for
the answer etc.
> Fanatics.
The later I definitely agree with, the first I'm not so sure (were those
armies fanatical or is that just how we think of them). I agree that they can
have strong (even potentially overriding) motives, but that wouldn't be all
they had.
> -Cowards
Sounds pretty good, the difference between mallards and
echidnas/opposums I
guess.
> >>-Carnivores (Dreenoi). They're just looking for lunch.
Once again this comes down to my desire to have well rounded SF aliens. An
'oblivious omnivore' probably wouldn't have made it thsi far anyway. Maybe a
suitable compromise would be that they ritually tear the throats out or
something after each kill, but don't actually start to feed as the battle
winds down and their position is secure.
> -A parasite (be they cyborg or biological) which 'infects' its
Yep, though it could work under its own asupices too - as malaria or the
'aliens' do.
> -Hoka-like which take everything literally and adopt 'roles' very
The Hoka are from the book called Hoka! Hoka! Hoka! by Poul Anderson and
Gordon Dickson, well lets just say that "one Hoka is a threat to human sanity.
Two Hokas are a menace to civilization. And three Hokas... Heaven help the
galaxy"! Basically they're VERY susceptable to images and role play at the
drop of a hat, and as humans happen to have been some of their first contacts
you end up having to do your police work with a 3 foot, furry Sherlock Holmes
etc. They make the costumes, adopt the speech and names etc of whatever period
they're playing (pretty much like small children with bigger budgets). Even if
you don't like the concept of them as an alien, the book is hilarious, well
worth the read!
> -Ones that use conditioning/psychology/education and infiltration
OK, maybe these are just a different kind of your "coward" group as they
really on infiltration and non-physical means.
> Different lifespans wold also add flavour to this - beings who think
I would probably effect aggression, the desire for expansion, the ability and
willingness to take losses for example. It would have some effect, though
you're right it probably be best placed as background material.
Have fun
Beth
> On 20-Oct-99 at 04:13, Beth Fulton (beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au) wrote:
> >Rome defeated many opposing armies this way. And at it's hight
Then there's the engineers, which also seemed to have a "no retreat" rule.
Look at the aquaducts and roads. "I don't care if there's a mountain in my
way, the closest distance between to points is a straight line."
Just because they are in the business arena instead of the military one
doesn't mean they didn't have the no retreat rule.
> Beth Fulton wrote:
Hokas would be great. One possible figure to use is from the "Macho Women with
Guns" line. They had a couple of armed "teddy bears" in 25mm. And if you are
really creative, drop by a craft shop that has the small plastic or furry
teddy bears and use them as a basis for conversion
And of course, I definitely agreed that the book mentioned above is well worth
the read!
Long ago I posted this. I never really tested it, so can't say how well it
works.
But it sounds like you're searching for something similiar.
Daryl
-- cut here --
Notes: It hits me that it might be nice to have a list of traits that could be
combined to create stargrunt aliens. Most of these should be psychological in
nature (in theory).
Examples: Psycorp Forces (from Babylon 5): Telepathy (LOS), Terror (ie Mind
attacks), Natural Sensors (d6)
Space Orcs: Close Combat Tendency, Edgy (Aggressive), Insensitive, Leadership
by Prowess, Uncaring
Space Goblins: Uncaring, Leadership by Prowess
Kzin: CC Lethality (lvl 1), Speed +1, Edgy (Aggressive),
Individualistic, Natural Sensors d6
Space Undead (Undead legionairres from MC): Automatons, Fearless, Mindless
Traits: Teleportation Spend an entire turn (one action to disappear, one
action to appear) to move anywhere on the board. MAY be used to close assault.
Teleportation (LOS) Spend an entire turn to move anywhere in LOS. May be used
to close assault.
Telekinetics Thrown objects, getting picked up and slammed into the ground
Grant a firepower (0.5-3 depending on strength), impact d6
Flight/Jump Packs
12" Movement
Easy: All terrain but forest/woods/jungles.
Difficult: forest/woods/jungles
Terrain Specialty Move a terrain type for movement purposes into another
category (ex. Fish Folk might find Open Water Poor terrain instead of
Impassible).
Telepathy Automatic transfer of command points.
Telepathy (los) Automatic transfer of command points in los.
Terror Causes terror to opponent. Close Combat only.
Natural Close Combat Lethality
lvl 1 - +1 die shift in CC
lvl 2 - +2 die shift in CC
Speed
lvl 1 - +2" in movemenT
lvl 2 - +4" in movement
Close Combat Tendency Need not take reaction test for Close Assaults, may not
break off close assaults, forced followups on close assaults (if enemy within
1 action theoretical assault range). Suppression may be removed by declaring a
charge.
Natural Sensors Grants a greater than d4 for spotting rolls for unaided
checks. Note: Maybe telepathic in nature.
Edgy (Aggressive) These are troops that have a stronger fight instinct than
flight instinct.
As morale drops, more likely to charge/attack (until they rout).
CO - everything is peachy-keen
ST - Discipline is frayed, troops are muttering about not being
aggressive enough (ie We must leap-and-tear!)
SH - Discipline is breaking down, Roll reaction test to move away
from nearest enemy in LOS or nearest hidden enemy marker.
BR - Discipline is frayed, Roll reaction test to do anything else but
fire on nearest enemy (unless the action you wish to perform is a close
assault)
RO - Roll when routed, 1-5 Flight instinct kicks in and unit behaves
as Timid when routing. 6-10 Beserk kicks in, unit tries to close
assault nearest enemy unit in LOS. No reaction test required. If no enemy in
LOS must go looking for enemy. Should a fleeing unit find itself about to be
captured roll again (yes you can turn on those troops that are about to grab
you).
Edgy troops always test at Level + 0 for Close Assaults.
Note: You must rethink mission motivation when using Edgy troops. A High
motivating mission would be one where dicipline is extremely important (ie
holding back from a fight and waiting for your
opponent to come to you (defensive missions/ambushes)).
Low motivation mission would be those that you wish to attack or the
commanders have a large amount of freedom (assaults on strongpoints, and
patrols).
Calm As morale drops, not much happens (until they rout)
CO - fine
ST - fine
SH - as ST for timids
BR - as SH
RO - as BR
Timid Same as human morale
Erratic As morale drops, things fall apart faster. Treat all confidence levels
as one worse (ie CO as ST).
Insensitive (Wound resistant)
+1 for wound decisions from fire combat, +0 for wound decisions from
close assaults.
Regenerative
+2 for wound decisions from fire combat, +1 for wound decisions from
close assaults.
Tough/carpace
+1/+2 die shifts for armor, if the alien wears body
armor. assign an armor level if the alien wears no body armor.
Uncaring May leave casualties behind, without penalty. (ie ignore the two
lines about leaving casualties behind for confidence checks). Note uncaring
troops tend not to often have High Mission Motivations.
Leadership by Prowess Bad leadership ratings (very few 1's, alot of 3's).
Leaders may have addition CC prowess.
Indiviualistic Increased command radius by 2"
Fearless Suppression has no effect them. Since suppression is a survival
instinct, treat all minor successes as a major success.
Mindless Need not make confidence checks or Reaction Tests
Automotons Panic without Squad leader, unable to pick new squad leader (may
reform into existing squad however). Panic must then be removed, by new squad
leader.
Worship Troops worship their leaders (ie may even BE their gods), death of a
designated figure(s) result in confidence check. Add the following 2 lines to
the confidence check table Low Medium High Death of Worshiped figure 6 4 2
For each Worshiped figure dead +3 +2 +1
Large Your troops are huge, treat them as size 2 (3) targets.
Excerpts from mail: 20-Oct-99 Re: [SGII] Furry troopers by Daryl
Lonnon@bamboo.veri
> Long ago I posted this. I never really tested it, so
<SNIP>
Great ideas! I'll have to spend some time thinking about those before I can
reply. Looks like you put a lot of thought into it.
G'day Kent,
> Hokas would be great. One possible figure to use is from the
Now why the heck did you have to go and give me that idea on a public holiday!
Its gonna kill me waiting until tomorrow to find a craft store
that's open!!!!!
Thanks;)
Beth
> At 09:02 AM 10/21/99 +1000, Beth wrote:
Hmm... might as well drop this one into the list at this point, as a "you've
got to see this!" type of thing. A couple of, ah, conversions done by one
Andrew Bolton for the Heavy Gear game system....
http://members.tripod.com/~ABolton/project.html
Enjoy!
> Beth Fulton wrote:
> G'day Donald,
They
> were
I believe there were retreats, but like Thomas Barclay says, they were not
that common. According to the show, some battles were won by a very small
margin because the romans didn't retreat.
> Mmm guess I'm being picky as we'd probably only see the military types
I think most civilians of that (and most periods/places) would move the
out of the way when two armies were having a battle...
> >Perhaps a race with the "no retreats" attitude could do quite well,
Yep.
> [quoted text omitted]
Sorry, Beth, but us Yanks don't get as many public holidays as you do down
under.: (
The hardest part about using the craft store teddies would be the finding a
variety of poses or actually arming of the little critters. I mean who would
chop up Jon's or Nic's nice figures just to get the weapons? Of course, if you
should happen to have some GW stuff lying around....
Actually, if you could find LS's 1/144th modern aircraft weapons set,
you could use the minigun pods and some of the missiles to make some real
bizarre weapons.
Kent McClure
> ----------
Oh I like this! They are great. Opens up a whole new idea. Build an army of
crazed costumed "otakus". (Otakus means roughly fans, but they have a special
meaning when applied to anime fans) Give them all Fanatic ratings and set them
off against the world.
Kent
> ----------
One of AOG's Starsiege demos looked like a race to destroy the other side's
MacGuffin. To add colour, the MacGuffins were each plastic Pokemons (Pikachu
and I don't know what else).
I had recently reread the book "To the Bitter End" by Lex McAulay and one of
the passages stuck in my mind that seems to sum up a certain mindset well.
This was an instruction issued by Colonel Yokoyama to Lieutenant Bunji
Shigemori at the Sanananda field hostpital involved in forming fighting units
from the patients.
"Every unit will hold its position to the very end. In attack on tanks you
will voluntarily jump on the tank and throw a handgrenade inside or stab
the the occupant with your bayonet. Every NCO and man will co-operate by
sacrificing his life for the Imperial Army.
We must consider Buna as fallen. It is are duty to hold Sanananda against the
Australian and American armies. We must display the bravery of the Japanese
Army.
Even though your are a patient, you should not hesitate to advance.
There are cases where patients exerted their utmost energy at the time of
withdrawal, so it is not impossible to exert your energy at the time of
advance.
Educate everyone so that they would rather die in glory on the battle field
rather than withdraw."
The Japanese evacuated the position before the patients where called upon to
fight. But when another field hostpital in an earlier battle had been overrun,
the Australians had been force to kill patients who fought from
their stretchers and refused to surrender.
Buck.
> -Proud warriors (Kzinti, Klingons, etc.). They fight individually for
Watch out on thsi one, a race/species with this kind of attitude ain't
going to last long in an evolutionary sense. The odd individual 'yes', but as
a general race characteristic I'd steer well clear.
> Geoffery R wrote:
They wouldn't take much forcing. Some Australian POWs had been kept
alive as meat-on-the-hoof by retreating and starving Japanese in New
Guinea.
One of the few atrocity stories about the Japanese that was actually censored
during the war, as it was judged to be unlikely to be believed. But the troops
at Bloody Buna had seen the gnawed bones, and were not in the mood to take
prisoners of anyone even hinting at resistance. (The people who did this
cannibalism all starved to death anyway, it really was a last resort for
them.).
Sherman had it right - War _is_ hell, but some campaigns are more
hellish than others.
> McClure, Kent wrote:
Well, Jon already does a large range of anime figures. You could add in a
couple of Jon's 'Gamers' figures in for that other form of known rabid fan.
---
G'day Kent,
> Sorry, Beth, but us Yanks don't get as many public holidays as you do
Hey the rest of Australia didn't get one, but as Tasmania has yet to move out
of the 1950s we still got stores that close at 5:00 weekdays, and earlier on
Saturdays (Sundays is WAY out of the question) and public
holidays at the drop of a hat - anybody's hat!
> The hardest part about using the craft store teddies would be the
Luckly for me the Necromunda weapon pack and the fact that Nic's got separate
weapons should solve the problem (found that out when I was doing my Greys).
Cheers
Beth