> [quoted text omitted]
I've got just the vaguest sketch of a rules idea for an alien race. It's
a bit half-baked at the moment, so bear with me, and it's an untested
rules mechanism not background. It's meant to represent some kind of
over-arching super-consciousness that directs its slave units e.g. a
hive mind or Borg-style collective.
The bulk of the army squads are automaton types that are given yellow or green
quality counters to represent their inability to act without direction.
Then the player is able to upgrade some of his force's quality and leadership
counters according to the dictates of the battle.
For example, it could be that the player has a certain number of blue, orange
and red counters of varying leadership. At the start of a turn, he can then
substitute some squad's yellow counters for the vet and elite types depending
on where he thinks the extra quality is most urgently needed. This represents
the hive mind 'personally' tuning in to that area of the battle and directing
those particular squads with all the force of its vast alien will.
In the next turn the player could (for example) switch his elite counter to a
different squad. The squad that had been elite now reverts to
yellow quality and must rely on basic instinct/programming.
Another way it could work is by using Node units which act as outposts and
conduits for the Consciousness. Node units can upgrade the quality
of a certain number of slave squads within a certain range. E.G. a Red/1
Quality/Leadership node could transfer its counter to create one Red /1
squad within 12". Or two Red/2
squads or three Red/3 squads. While an Orange/2 Node could create one
Orange/2 squad within 10" or two Orange/3 squads.
Another method might be to give the player Savas'ku style power points. He
then distributes these among his squads to raise their base level quality and
leadership and perhaps even armour and movement every turn.
One other thing I'd like to try is to allow the Consciousness to override the
effects of suppression. Suppressions can be cleared if the Hive mind uses its
super will to overcome its slave's natural instincts. In game terms this means
killing a member of the squad to remove the suppression. The idea being that
the
imposition of the Hive mind overloads the circuits/neurons of one member
of the squad who drops down dead but it jolts the rest back into action. Seems
a suitably callous and alien way to go about things.
Anyway, that's it. Like I say, I haven't got this off the drawing board or
thought it through particularly far. But those are the lines I'm bumbling
along.
Mark
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> Mark Donald wrote:
I'm never happy with a "hive mind" but I'd also been thinking about a
race that starts Y / G and then goes through B / O / R as the shooting
continues -- ie they start out dumb and happy but their "adrenaline"
also acts as a mental stimulant. Could be "QD goes up when Confidence goes
down" or "test for QD increase whenever they're Suppressed"; it would go down
again after a while if no one shot at them, although that'd be beyond the
scope of the usual SG game. You might also have a "Leader" variant who is, so
to speak, on a permanent adrenaline high. They'd be fast and smart but would
have to make a real effort to communicate with their "normal" cousins.
You've been reading "Armor", haven't you?
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
> -----Original Message-----
> continues -- ie they start out dumb and happy but their "adrenaline"
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> On Mon, 22 Mar 2004, Laserlight wrote:
> Mark Donald wrote:
Isn't this more or less how the aliens in 2300AD work? (is it actually called
'Traveller 2300AD'?). I think they're called the 'Kafir' or something; I've
never played the RPG but have read some of the fluff & online sources.
One piece of fluff I read concerned *not* assualting into the remains of a
Kafir column after it's been ambushed, because you'll have angry, 'smart'
survivors hiding in the wreckage.
I'm not sure of the biology of this, but it would feel 'alien' all right!
G'day,
> Then the player is able to upgrade some of his force's
Defiitely sounds worth pursuing as an alien idea! Having seen some invert
colonies in action I have less of a problem with a hive mind than Laserlight
does;)
> For example, it could be that the player has a certain number of blue,
I like this idea of just having x chits on the board and shuffling them about
as need be, I think that would produce a very interesting force to work with
and against.
> Another way it could work is by using Node units which act as outposts
While also a good idea I think this one would be harder to get to work
"fairly" in practice as its not a linear progression in usefulness as
you move through the leadership values per colour... A Red/1 is not
worth 3xRed/3 as just being red is incredibly important in the first
place and so being 1 rather than 3 isn't that much better.
> Another method might be to give the player Savas'ku style power
While also a cool idea I think this would be more an FMAS level thing as it
would probably bog down an SG game and require a fair amount of book keeping
(I have been trying to think up good ways of avoiding this particular problem
myself, so if you come up with any I'd been keen to here it!)
> One other thing I'd like to try is to allow the Consciousness
Not my kinda thing, but yes it would be interesting. Mind you part of the
appeal of your 1st idea to me was having to think about whether you
wanted that Orange-1 over there so you could get some decent long range
fire going or over here so this squad stood a damn good chance of removing
suppression.
Looks good!
Have fun
> Robertson, Brendan wrote:
No...but I think I recall something similar from GDW? Not Kfir, exactly, but
close.
How about setting it up as a pyramid scheme?
Lowest teir of command is always GREEN, next highest tier is BLUE, etc
Shuffling in a few YELLOW counters with the green may be OK, but I wouldn't
recommend it.
RED
|
-------------
| |
ORANGE OR
| |
-------------
| | |
BLUE BL BL
| | |
-------------------
| | | |
GREEN GR GR GR
| | | |
-------------------------------
| | | | |
YELLOW YE YE YE YE
This makes a 10 unit force (15 unit if you include YELLOW units). There must
always be MORE of one quality than the next highest quality; eg. A 6 unit
force has 3 GREEN, 2 BLUE and 1 ORANGE unit. The commander ratings are
allocated the same way (so for 10 units, there would be 5 x 3's, 3 x 2's and 2
x 1's).
For purposes of TRANSFER ACTION, higher quality can transfer actions only to
lower quality units OR they can transfer their quality to that unit. If a unit
receives a higher quality than previously, they must spend a
RE-ORGANISE action to shake down the new command structure. If a unit
receives a lower quality than previously, there is no effect (as they have
usually just activated anyway) If a unit is completely DESTROYED, then the
command structure must be maintained (more lower quality than higher quality),
so the player may choose which units to downgrade in order to meet the command
structure.
Doesn't require anymore paperwork (except being able to count).
Brendan 'Neath Southern Skies
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Thanks for the feedback, Beth. I think you're right, on the face of it, the
first idea looks simplest and most fun.
Mark
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> G'day,
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> Robertson, Brendan wrote:
The Kaffir. Never been a big Traveller fan, but the Kaffir were so
well-thought-out that I picked up the sourcebook when I had the chance.
Only thing that I have from the entire line.
Basically, the Kaffir get smarter when they are under stress. They go from
being barely smarter than monkeys to being smarter than humans... if there's
sufficient stimulus. And each time this process occurs, the "baseline" state
gets a bit more intelligent.
Officers are generally smart examples of the species; not functioning on
human levels, but smarter than the average bug. They "motivate" their troops
by hurting them a bit. Shooting them with pellet guns, beating them with
batons...gets the soldier's attention AND raises his IQ a bit.
It's an interesting idea, and very easy to adapt to a tabletop setting.
> --- Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca> wrote:
What Laserlight described is almost exactly the Kafers from 2300AD (started
off as Traveller:2300, then GDW dropped the 'Traveller' part as it had
absolutely nothing to do with their Traveller universe; the history of the
game was actually projected forward from Twilight:2000!).
The Kafers were generally 'dumb' but got 'smart' when threatened. I forget the
exact reasons GDW presented for their development in this way, but they did go
into the history and evolution of the Kafers in soucebooks. The Kafer leaders
are the ones who, as LL said, are permanently 'smart' and thus able
to keep long-term objectives in mind -- the overall leaders are
'smarter' than squad leaders, so while your squad may start at
Y/G, the leader might only be one step above, if even that...
but the reason they may be leader could also be that they respond to danger
more quickly!
In 2300AD, when ambusing a Kafer column, you would generally have a couple of
turns of 'target range' fire before the Kafers got smart about things... then,
assuming the GM ran the game
well, you were in deep doodoo. ^_- The Kafer had a fairly heavy
emphasis on defensive structures and redundant systems (e.g., in vehicles),
partially so equipment would survive enemy attack, also so that dumb Kafers
who tried to 'make their equipment smart' (e.g., beat it up) would not destroy
it.
It's a great alien race and psycology, though of course I've no idea how
realistic it would be.
'Til later,
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 02:02:28PM +0000, John C wrote:
> The Kaffir.
OK, three spellings is enough. It was "Kafer", as in the German for Cockroach.
One interesting side-effect was that their ground troops were a lot
better than their starship crews, who had to rely on synthetic means of
stimulating the pain response...
R
> John C wrote:
> Basically, the Kaffir get smarter when they are under stress. They go
So an easy way to represent this would be to immediately change/up the
Quality
or Leadership counter when the squad got hit. No need for book-keeping
that way.
The change could perversely be increased the worse the hit. A suppression
might only cause a 1 pip change to LD or Qual or perhaps nothing at all. While
several wounds could increase LD and Qual by a couple of pips each. Perhaps
there should be a chart to roll on. Like the Confidence test table in reverse.
This might even lead to enemy players targeting previously activated squads
for once, which is meant to happen anyway but rarely does.
Then at the end of the turn, every squad could experience a reduction in LD or
Qual to represent the subsiding adrenaline levels. Again, a blanket treatment
does away with book-keeping.
Finally, the player is still able to switch a few Y/G counters for B/O/R
counters every turn to represent officers 'zapping' their own troops into
action.
Mark
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> From: Roger Burton West <roger@firedrake.org>
Damn. Even did a Google search to see if I was spelling it right. Curse you,
internet! You've misled me for the last time!
> One interesting side-effect was that their ground troops were a lot
Not sure how you'd simulate them in FT, mind. Psychology doesn't really
play much of a role, sadly.
> Damn. Even did a Google search to see if I was spelling it right.
Curse
> you, internet! You've misled me for the last time!
Not to worry; I was absolutely certain it had two 'f's. Sadly, isn't it fairly
close to the old South African pejorative? It never occurred to me it might be
derived from the word for cockroach.
> Basically, the Kaffir get smarter when they are under stress. They go
I'm not sure they were 'smarter' than humans when stimulated, by the way.
While they did get somewhat more intelligent, I think it was mainly they went
from lethargic to very quickly reacting. Monkeys beat us that way
already. ;->=
The_Beast
> Alan wrote:
> "Armour"?
"Armor". It's a book by John Steakley. The armour in question (spelled "Armor"
because he's an American author) is a set of scout armour, basically a form of
fast power armour. The novel starts with a single character dropped on an
alien world to fight "ants". They look vaguely like ants (though they aren't
insectoid, if I remember correctly), operate with a hive mind, and overwhelm
their enemies with numbers. The novel then changes point of view and takes you
to an entirely different location in the same universe, but the "armour" shows
up again.
It's an interesting book, though it would require some work to convert
it to SG2. The only other book of his that I know of is _Vampire$_,
which was made into a movie by John Carpenter (and inspired a sequel).
> Officers are generally smart examples of the species; not functioning
> troops by hurting them a bit. Shooting them with pellet guns, beating
> them with batons...gets the soldier's attention AND raises his IQ a
No doubt the Bavarian Illuminati are using these techniques, John?
Sorry, was forgetting it's actually an English publication, not a US
publication (where a lot of our sci-fi print matter comes from).
Brendan 'neath southern skies
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"Armor" is kind of "Starship Troopers" but with psychological insights instead
of political ones.
> agoodall@att.net wrote:
> Alan wrote:
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Rather than a hive mind with all its attendant implications of psychic powers
perhaps the Node/Queen creature communicates with drones via a chemical
messaging system. Pumping out super-pheremones to raise slave units
aggression state from Y/G to B/O/R.
An alternative to the Kaffir idea is a race of super-adaptives. Unlike
humans who agglomerate experience slowly over time, this race approaches every
new situation with a blank slate and then learns to deal with it at a
terrifying
rate. So they go into a firefight Y/G and increase leadership / Quality
the longer they stay in that fight and the more they're stimulated (i.e.
shot).
They then revert to Y/G until the next time they're engaged when they
start the adaptive process over again.
> Laserlight wrote:
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
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Thanks for the clarification, do you know if it's still in print it sounds
interesting.
Don't worry I wasn't correcting you, I just repeated the word as I would spell
it. It was actually an enquiry re: the title. I'm always on the look out for a
good read. Currently I'm working my way through Iain M. Banks'
sci-fi novels, they're very intersting and engaging, though I think that
they might well be beyond the scope of most wargames.
> Laserlight wrote:
> Mark Donald wrote:
I guess, as it's an alien race in a game, you could make the range whatever
you find convenient to make the game more fun.
As for an airless world. Never fought a battle on one in 20 years, don't mind
if I never do.
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> Mark Donald wrote:
I'm not a biologist so I don't know, but I'd bet this would have some
severe range limitations--especially if you're fighting on an airless
world....
> On Wednesday 24 March 2004 09:49 am, agoodall@att.net wrote:
First, sorry about the non-contributory blank response I sent just a
second ago.
Second, though these figs aren't exactly what I had in mind when I read Armor,
perhaps these would be suitable for such a game?
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=481960
> On Wednesday 24 March 2004 09:49 am, agoodall@att.net wrote:
> Laserlight wrote:
> I'm not a biologist so I don't know, but I'd bet this would have some
You can draw technology from it, however - once this race gets
industrialised, it gets into combat drugs in a big way. Roll on PA suits
with on-board pheremone storage that can be triggered by remote command
(transfer of activation, perhaps? Command squad burns an action, one
nearby Y/G unit makes a reorganise test and comes out B or O).
Suddenly battlefield EW becomes a lot more important - it /literally/
keeps the enemy dumb! Or forces the command entities to be a lot closer to
their squads (i.e. on the tabletop), just asking for a stray round or
sniper...
Great stuff!
> Lachlan Atcliffe wrote:
> Laserlight wrote:
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> Alan wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification, do you know if it's still in print it
Amazon has it for sale and is listing it as "ships in 24 hours", so I would
say it's still in print.
I preferred it to Starship Troopers. I'm not sure if you could do it in SG2,
as the ratio of ants to PA is pretty severe, but I suppose you
could fool around with it and say, "This ant figure represents 10/20/100
ants!". The trick is finding alien figurest that would work for the
ants...
In Armor the "ants" were clearly bipedal, with a central set of weak
"manipulator" arms and a heavier set of "combat" arms at the shoulder. They'd
be heavy, bulky, and fully upright.
Those are neat bugs, and would be useful for games, but not for Armor
Ants. :)
J
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Flak Magnet wrote:
> First, sorry about the non-contributory blank response I sent just a
***
In Armor the "ants" were clearly bipedal, with a central set of weak
"manipulator" arms and a heavier set of "combat" arms at the shoulder. They'd
be heavy, bulky, and fully upright.
Those are neat bugs, and would be useful for games, but not for Armor
Ants. :)
J
***
I was thinking of plastic ants, and a desparate player could get by with
raising 'em up at an angle, shoving the rear legs into epoxy on a washer, and
trim the middle pair to be 'weak'.
Tough to mount weaponry; did they have weapons?
The_Beast
Yes, about 1 in 20 carried a "blaster" or "heat gun". It wasn't that deadly vs
the powered armor, but sustained fire could burn through.
BTW, the book Armor *is* an excellent read. Every time I read it though, when
Steakley switches to Jack Crows point of view in the middle, my brain goes,
"What? huh?", and then I recover.:)
If they weren't true 25s, and thus very small and thin, I'd use something like
McEwan Miniatures Dreenoi, though they'd be better with a second set of
smaller arms. The Dreenoi with Disruptor would be fine for an Ant with a
blaster, and he does sell ones with no weapons.
<http://www.tin-soldier.com/sg/dreenoi.html>
J
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Doug Evans wrote:
> ***
***
If they weren't true 25s, and thus very small and thin, I'd use something like
McEwan Miniatures Dreenoi, though they'd be better with a second set of
smaller arms. The Dreenoi with Disruptor would be fine for an Ant with a
blaster, and he does sell ones with no weapons.
<http://www.tin-soldier.com/sg/dreenoi.html>
***
The 'unarmed' are already six-limbed; for the warriors, which mostly
have upper arms tucked into their bodies, I'd almost suggest larger arms
attached to the shoulders. Armor's 'ants' are roughly man height? I thought it
sounded like they might be a bit smaller; if taller, though, true 25 can be
giants to 15mm...
Also, has anyone commented on the fact that the 'larva drop capsules' look
rather like some certain wheeled tin cans that wander about screeching
'exterminate'? ;->=
The_Beast
Since the monster ant models I originally suggested didn't fly:
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=573436
Perhaps the beast on that page is more suited to an Armor-based game.
I mean the 2nd picture down, of course.
According to the site, they aren't release yet, but at least they're sculpted.
They remind me of the critters from an old arcade game called "Space
Gun".
The basic Dreenoi is not 6 limbed. They have four, just like humans.
It's only the queen/drone sets that have 6, and they basically have a
second set of normal dreenoi arms attached, which is not quite right for the
Ants in Armor.
And yes, the drop capsules are rather... familiar. I've noticed over the years
that McEwan uses parts in some of his models. I was building a ralnai walker
(like an ATST) once for a friend, and noted that the body was a panther turret
flipped with the top on the front of the walker. Kind of lame, IMHO.
<shrug>
J
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Doug Evans wrote:
> ***
look
> rather like some certain wheeled tin cans that wander about screeching
That guy looks like the bugs in the Area 51 video game. It's a really cool
mini, but I don't think I'd use them for Ants. I'm picky that way.
:)
Oh, and the Ants should be taller than a human. Like 2.5 - 3 meters
tall, IIRC.
J
John K. Lerchey Computer and Network Security Coordinator Computing Services
Carnegie Mellon University
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2004, Flak Magnet wrote:
> Since the monster ant models I originally suggested didn't fly:
> On Wednesday 24 March 2004 01:06 pm, John K Lerchey wrote:
You're a hard guy to please... might I suggest you acquire some epoxy putty
and sculpting tools?
G'day,
> I'm not a biologist so I don't know, but I'd bet this would have some
Airless makes it harder yes;)
As to range on a world with air it could be 10s of km, assuming that
battlefield chemical releases don't neutralise the form of the pheromone.
> You can draw technology from it, however - once this race gets
You'd better hope that suit breaches don't just release clouds of the stuff
too or with every soldier down his squad mates could go rampant;)
Cheers
> > You can draw technology from it, however - once this race gets
A drug-dependent alien race or human culture could be yet another way to
represent the Quality-switching mechanism. The Y/G Quality troops are
spiked at intervals with performance-enhancers to temporarily boost them
to B/O/R Quality.
Perhaps there's a risk of over-dose which scales up depending on the
level of performance required? A brief OD table could be devised which ranges
from no ill effect through suppression through to wounds and
kills and loss of morale / motivation. If you're trying to lift Yellows
to Blue there's little risk, but there would be major threat level penalties
for a roll intended to lift Yellows to Red Quality.
Mark
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> As to range on a world with air it could be 10s of km, assuming that
I think this is a great idea. Instead of having Electronic Warfare units you
could have Aroma Warfare. But maybe instead of just blocking transfers the
chemical agents could attempt to mimic alien signals with all kinds of crazy
effects. Sometimes gaining temporary control of a squad, sometimes forcing it
to do something suicidal, like leap out of
position and into the open, sometimes sending it kill-crazy. It could be
quite experimental.
Mark
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G'day,
> I think this is a great idea. Instead of having Electronic
I wouldn't want to be on the front line of those experiments!
Cheers
> From: <Beth.Fulton@csiro.au> >Reply-To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu >To:
<gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu> >Subject: RE: [SGII] Alien seed >Date: Fri, 26
Mar 2004 09:39:57 +1100 > >G'day, > > > I think this is a great idea.
Instead of having Electronic > > Warfare units you could have Aroma Warfare.
But maybe instead > > of just blocking transfers the chemical agents could
attempt > > to mimic alien signals with all kinds of crazy effects. > >
Sometimes gaining temporary control of a > > squad, sometimes forcing it to do
something suicidal, like > > leap out of
position and into the open, sometimes sending it > > kill-crazy. It
could be quite experimental. > >I wouldn't want to be on the front line of
those experiments! > >Cheers > >Beth  Which brings into the tactical issue of
who's upwind and downwind. If you're upwind then they can smell your arrival
but you can also deploy Aroma warfare <VEG> Â (Bites tounge to prevent
obligatory foul smelling joke) Â Sly
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