Which brings me to another point, once gone 'round a while back. "Less Lethal
Force" now, I don't want to dredge that up again per se, but I was thinking
about levels of police armaments around our azure sphere. The Metropolitans
are armed only with truncheons, right? Then other branches of
local (and national?) police/paramilitary forces are armed with
pistols/shotguns/s.m.g's as a matter of course. In the USA we choose to
give fairly inadequate weapons to most of our Law Enforcement types, save in
certain SWAT/Response Teams. What's the level of armaments around our
little global GZG community?
I figure three or four arbitrary levels:
1) Unarmed (Bobbies? Some American Mall Security/Bank Guards)
Truncheons, Pepper Spray
2) Armed (Most US (Canadian? Mexican? Street Cops/Sheriffs, Armored car
guards) Have small caliber handguns, shotguns for defense/offense. May
have light body armor.
3) Paramilitary (SWAT Teams, Carbinieri,???) Armed with smg's, sniper rifles,
assault rifles. Light body armor a must, at least.
4) Military Indistinguishable from the local military. (Banana Republics,
Soviet KGB Border Guards/ Customs Guards) Probably less (or no)
artillery/armor support though....
I'm curious to the local levels and organization names around our big wide
web, and opinions/ ideas on the GZG future history counterparts.
Gene
Gene
> ----------
tom.anderson@altavista.net[SMTP:tom.anderson@altavista.net]
> >> Reply To: FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
> ---- gene wrote:
the british police are roughly:
> 1) Unarmed
95% of british police. most forces (it's organised on a county basis) have
pepper spray, and all have truncheons. this also goes for the MPs i have seen
(i live in a garrison town, and every friday night you see them hanging about
outside some pubs and clubs waiting to pounce on disorderly squaddies).
> 2) Armed
i think there is a policy that a patrol car with a firearm must be on
call within n minutes (where n is 10-15). i'm not sure if this was a
proposal or is implemented.
> 3) Paramilitary
airport police have smg's and body armour, due to terrorism. there are
armed police units that are called out to deal with some gun-related
incidents, such as sieges of armed robbers, etc. i think that they are regular
coppers with extra training, and the unit only assembles as needed. not sure
about this one. they are certainly not SWAT in the US sense.
> 4) Military
serious stuff, like iranians holding hostages, is dealt with by the SAS. the
army also provide 'security' in ulster (well, they used to, then
they were largely withdrawn, and now i think they're back). the army/air
force also provide men and appliances when the firemen go on strike. the army
were also called in in the general strike early this century, and no doubt
would be on the streets of the UK if such social unrest developed again.
> You wrote:
> pistols/shotguns/s.m.g's as a matter of course. In the USA we choose
9mm isn't that bad. I havn't given this a great deal of thought for the NRE.
Rough draft is as follows.
> I figure three or four arbitrary levels:
Truncheons,>Pepper Spray
None.
> 2) Armed (Most US (Canadian? Mexican? Street Cops/Sheriffs, Armored
May have light body armor.
I will probably be going ahistorical here and introducing some sort of
professional police organizations that fit this level. In here would also be
retainers and paramilitaries raised by local leaders to
maintain order when necessary--Byzantines gave much leeway to local
'nobility' (misleading term--The Powerful are the subject of multiple
books and the whole mess is too complicated to go into here, until the era of
the Comnenii when things start falling into more Western lines). Also private
security guards.
> 3) Paramilitary (SWAT Teams, Carbinieri,???) Armed with smg's, sniper
Akritai fulfil the border guard functions. Lightly armed and armored
(HKP/3s on their cavalry vehicles, mortars attached at BN level).
> 4) Military Indistinguishable from the local military. (Banana
Errruummmmm... There is no Posse Comitatus law in the Empire. Close
cooperation between military and civil authorities. Strategos is both the
military and civil commander of an area and it's troops. So when heavy
firepower is needed, MPs or even infantry would be loaned out. This is even
worse in the City, where the Imperial Guard's METL includes supressing riots
when necessary (NIKA!).
This is off the top of my head and may expand somewhat. Tony, if
you've got any good ideas (and have time inbetween thesis-writing
sessions) let me know.:)
> At 14:01 20/09/98 -0400, Tom wrote:
have pepper spray, and all have truncheons. this also goes for the MPs i have
seen (i live in a garrison town, and every friday night you see them hanging
about outside some pubs and club waiting to pounce on disorderly squaddies).
Note that american miltary bases are policed in an American style i.e. armed
police and there are *many* places in the Uk that have armed security even
though they are technically civilian buildings. *ALL* the royal residences
have a permanent army security force. Most of the navy shipyards and airbases
do too. Even some of the more vital 'service' buildings do
-
I've got reliable info that london's main power and telecomms hubs have guards
with SMG's, just in case one of our more eccentric Irish friends decides to
attempt to press a point. That's as well as the places mentioned below. I
think you can presume any nuclear facility has some sort of armed security
presence too.
> 2) Armed
Different forces have different policies about this - specially since
one of Merseyside's ARV's (Armed Response Vehicles) was stolen recently. I
think things are tending back to having the response teams on station at local
headquarters, rather than on patrol. Of course, it also depends on
the number of trained frearms officers in the force - the Met has an
*awful* lot more of those than, say, some of the scots forces.
> 3) Paramilitary
not sure about this one. they are certainly not SWAT in the US sense. Used to
be that way, not any more. These days officers are seconded to the
response/security squads for a certain period of time, like any other
area they might be assigned to. I think a 'tour of duty' is something like 18
months. Serious specialists (sharpshooters mostly) are permanent. I think they
found that policeman couldn't cope as well with switching roes so quickly.
> 4) Military
the army also provide 'security' in ulster (well, they used to, then they
were largely withdrawn, and now i think they're back). the army/air
force also provide men and appliances when the firemen go on strike. the army
were also called in in the general strike early this century, and no doubt
would be on the streets of the UK if such social unrest developed again.
Not sure about that bit, but you're right about one thing - the brit
police isn't stupid enough to attempt to resolve a situation they aren't
equipped for. They are *not* going to go after groups of trained terrorists
with military grade weapons. They leave that to the army, or occasionally
special branch seconded ex-army people.
How do I know all this? My (ex) next door neighbour was a police sharpshooter.
Some *very* scary stuff in his house.
TTFN
Jon
> You wrote:
> 2) Some of the cohorts would be special response groups like
What's TRG and ARG?
> Finally its not so much a problem of between thesis sessions but
of not >avoiding it all together as one of the students this year seems to be
doing.
That sounds like a Real Bad Idea[tm].
> At 22:18 20/09/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Also private security guards.
> no) >artillery/armor support though....
1) Imperial Rome had the urban cohorts or vigiles as they are sometimes
called. They doubled as both firemen and a military reserve (odd combo). If
you are basing things on Rome then say split your urban cohorts into
"incendria" (firemen) and "lictors" or "vigiles" as your police. Niether are
usually armed but as they are the same organisation they would make great riot
police (lots and lots of water cannon).
2) Some of the cohorts would be special response groups like SWAT, TRG, ARG,
etc, and would take to the battlefield (if VERY nessecary) as militia but no
worse than regular.
3) No military police.
4) Any Imperial Guard units or personal retainers/bodyguards of
army commanders.
Finally its not so much a problem of between thesis sessions but of not
avoiding it all together as one of the students this year seems to be doing.
> At 21:09 22/09/98 +1000, you wrote:
The problem with poor Ned was that he forgot to protect his legs. The armour
was very heavy (old ploughshears) which slowed him down and the helemt only
had a small slot for him to look out of so that he couldn't see the police
getting behind him. No bullet went through the armour but Ned took several
hits to the arms and legs. In short the armour was OK if you were in a
situation where you couldnt be flanked and didnt have to move much, but not
much chop outside. If you are going to do something like this in SG then
perhaps a gang of crims might have 2 or 3 suits of homemade PA. Say move 4",
armour D12 but arms or hands exposed (harder to get the electronics to work
right) so that when hit roll on PA cas table but you cant kill him ('less blow
the neighbourhood), basic SAW and maybe SMG. Now for all those Poms that know
the sound of Rolfe Harris
voice....
"Poor Ned, Your better off dead, Least they wouldn't hang you high, Poor
Ned.......... :)
> At 21:50 23/09/98 +1000, you wrote:
Now you know there are no Irish nuclear weapons...
> Of course the retaliation from the USSR effectively expunges the
On a complete tangent is it true that Australian special forces were recently
authorised to make use of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs
usually used by athletes (illegally)?
If it is this gives me a vision of the OU police forces shunning power armour
in favour of being doped up to the gills with boosters and pain killers?
Cheaper than power armour I suppose.
On one other point whats happened to the Indonesian Commonwealth in FT? I'd
nearly forgotten about them but they strike me as being important minor
players in the overall scheme of things.
> --
> At 21:50 23/09/98 +1000, you wrote:
A million miles from who? Sydney was a better choice of capital. You must be a
Mexican ("down south of the border, down Mexico way...") Do you happen to
remember the name of the story and have any ideas as to where we might find
it?
Tony. twilko@ozemail.com.au
> Glenrowan ends up Nuking (as in H-bomb) Hanoi when some Australian
> At 12:39 22/09/98 -0500, you wrote:
Tactical Response Group is the New South Wales (my state) equivalent of SWAT.
It might be called the Special Weapons Group now as the old TRG was under
review for shooting a couple of people. Armed Response Group is IIRC the
Victorian equivalent. Then again the cops in Victoria just tend to shoot first
and ask later. In Australia The Victorian police lead the killing bad guys
stakes by a good way.
> Finally its not so much a problem of between thesis sessions but
> of not >avoiding it all together as one of the students this year seems
> to be doing.
You're not wrong! Still his head and not mine. Hope to have mine finished
Sunday/Monday.
[quoted original message omitted]
> Niall Gilsenan wrote:
> On a complete tangent is it true that Australian special forces were
Dunno. Certainly amphetamines have been used (under medical supervison) before
now. The main problem is how to administer enough to tide through the
emergency, and yet not cause permanent damage to the system.
> If it is this gives me a vision of the OU police forces shunning power
In the long term, no. Pensions, compensation, bad morale due to people dying
of heart attacks in their 30's etc.
> On one other point whats happened to the Indonesian Commonwealth in
Pass.
> Alan E & Carmel J Brain wrote:
> Dunno. Certainly amphetamines have been used (under medical
When I was a young PFC in the 82d (this is late seventies), I was in my
battalion's scout platoon. We had jeeps with machineguns on them. After the
intial paraachute assault we usually found ourselves involved in about 48
hours of virtually non stop operations. And we were given little black pills
to keep us going. You had to be careful with them though as I saw them wreck a
few lieutennants, who never knew when te little black pills weren't gonna help
you any longer....
> Los wrote:
After the
> intial paraachute assault we usually found ourselves involved in about
Chemical Augmentation is too useful not to use: But putting them in the
> -----Original Message-----
Ah, yes. Black beauties. Once under the influence of these we were able to
free climb up and down a sheer cliff face at night. Unfortunately when
daylight (and sanity) returned we were unable to repeat the feat with light
and ropes. This proves they also scrambled your smarts and made you pretty
fearless. This why they may be good for short time use but may be expensive in
the amount of stupid things your otherwise well trained troops will do.