In response to Brian:
Yes, when I mentioned the Armour of Achilles, I had in mind the Armour 5
Behemoth tank taking a shot form the Throw-Me-Away-IAVR and the tank
rolling a 1 (thus totalling 5) and the IAVR rolling a mediocre 6 and killing
it. Add
in major impacts and you have a rather too-good (IMO) chance of an IAVR
cancelling the behemoth tank.
You get far more mean-behaving armour (ie you don't get Achilles armour)
and heavy weapons (a class 5 heavy weapons shouldn't be quite so
unpredictable) if you roll Nd12 rather than d12 and multiply by N. This gives
more predictable mean performance to the weapons and armours, and makes the
larger vehicles somewhat more survivable. They can still be killed, but if
the IAVR or GMS/P gunner rolls an 11, the odds of dying aren't 1 in 6.
They're far less - you'd have to roll 10 or less on 5d12. It can still
happen, but it is far less likely.
Some people like having a GMS/P able to kill an armour 5 tank. I'm
wondering if this would happen in DS2 as easily as it can (I've seen it enough
times... armour 3-5 proving useless against a class 1 weapon) in SG2?
> On Wed, 08 November 2000, "Barclay, Tom" wrote:
> Some people like having a GMS/P able to kill an armour 5 tank. I'm
Hmmm...I don't knowIf you're going to let infantry get within 100 to 400
metres of your class 5 behemoth with a buzz bomb, I'd say you're asking for
trouble.
> From: agoodall@canada.com
I'll second that motion. The fact is, the armor isn't perfect. Important
things stick out of a tank like weapons, sensors, treads, and the commander's
torso when not buttoned up! These things are prone to not like HEAT rounds.
Weapons break off or barrels deflect, sensors fail or shutters get welded shut
and the poor commander gets blown to hell and gone.
There is a straight to video movie from Finland called "The Winter War" which
I very highly recommend to everyone on the list. In that movie they show how a
big scary tank can be taken out by close assaulting infantry.
> Barclay, Tom wrote:
> Yes, when I mentioned the Armour of Achilles, I had in mind the Armour
This of course invites the counter "but the gunner only rolls 11 one time in 6
and he has to hit you first, so the chance for that is less than 1 in 36" <g>
But that doesn't take the major hits into account, and at short range
they're very common even for low-grade troops. You're quite right; the
odds for IAVRs to take out super-heavy tanks from the front are
ridiculously high. If the gunner is at point-blank range, his Pkill
(disabling or brewing up) is:
Elite - 12.1%
Veteran - 11.9%
Regular - 11.2%
Green - 9.8%
Untrained - 4.0%
This doesn't include the system or mobility damage Peter Mancini referred to,
BTW.
While I can accept that an Elite trooper probably could disable a tank
frontally, I'd expect him to do it by hitting sights or similar systems
rather than by penetrating the frontal armour :-/
I canNOT accept that a *Green* trooper will destroy or completely
disable a super-heavy tank frontally almost 10% of the time, however!
Especially not if the target has ERA and/or point defences, but such
systems seem to be absent in SGII :-(
> From the side or rear the above kill probabilities are probably too
> Some people like having a GMS/P able to kill an armour 5 tank. I'm
GMS/P doesn't exist in DS2, instead being "baked into" the IAVR (or
possibly GMS/L) category. IAVRs have an 8% chance to knock out an
Armour-5 tank frontally in DSII; this drops slightly (to 7%) if the
target has ERA or APFC. Not quite as bad as in SGII, but still nasty... the
main difference though is that in DSII the tanks can often choose to stay away
from the infantry; in SGII they can't <g>
Regards,
> I canNOT accept that a *Green* trooper will destroy or completely
> From the standpoint of the weapons vs. armor, it does seem reasonable.
However this probably isn't a technology question. BattleGround WWII by
Easy Eight handles this nicely - if infantry want to attack armor they
have to make a "half gut" check (morale * 50%). Basically is is a morale check
and green troops have something like a 20-30% chance of making it. That
would turn the 10% into a 3% chance. Perhaps you should try that as a house
rule.
> Peter Mancini wrote:
> I canNOT accept that a *Green* trooper will destroy or completely
Not a frontal completely-disabling/destroying hit against a super-heavy
tank, no. We're not talking about shooting up a mere M1A2, you know...
Suspension or System hits, certainly. They're what you can realistically
expect to achieve when firing an LAW at the front of an
extremely heavily armoured target - but they weren't included in the
Pkill values in my previous post.
In addition to the 10-12% chance for a total kill (or complete
disablement) of the level-5 armour tank, the IAVR *also* has an 11-12%
chance of inflicting a Systems hit (F-kill, though possibly only
temporary), and if the target is Tracked, Wheeled or Hover it gets yet
another 12-14% chance of permanently immobilising it (M-kill).
The M- and F-kill figures do seem reasonable. The K-kill one... no. Not
unless the armour developers stop working last year and don't lift a finger
for the next century or two while I and my collegues all work at least 48
hours a day for the same time, but that won't happen even in
my wettest dreams. Lighter vehicles - fine, super-heavies in the side
or rear - fine, but super-heavies in the front - no.
> However this probably isn't a technology question.
To a large extent it *is* a technology question, yes.
> BattleGround WWII by Easy Eight handles this nicely - if infantry want
How important the morale is depends a fair bit on the range of the
weapon, though. WWII infantry shoulder-launched anti-tank weapons had
ranges of around 50 meters, and at max range their hit rates weren't
very good - to get a good chance to actually hit the target, you needed
to get very close to the tank. That's scary, particularly if the tank doesn't
oblige by driving right next to your foxhole so you have to run up to it.
But in SGII we're talking about hit rates (minor+major) of 90% and
better at 120m and 80+% at 240m (except for Green and Untrained which
are 5-10% lower than the others, and of course unless I've
misinterpreted the rules again - if IAVRs use Heavy Weapon range bands
instead of Support ones it'd be 90+% out to 600m and 80+% to 1200...
makes GMSs look kind of redundant :-/). With that kind of weapon range
it's much easier to stay in cover and still be able to shoot at the
tank - and thus much less scary.
Regards,
> On Thu, 09 November 2000, "Oerjan Ohlson" wrote:
> But in SGII we're talking about hit rates (minor+major) of 90% and
Yep, you've misinterpreted them again. *S*
GMS/P are fired like all other GMS systems, and so they don't have range
bands.
IAVRs are fired like support weapons. They have range bands equal to the
qualit y die of the squad.
----------
> Från: agoodall@canada.com
Not unusual <g>
> GMS/P are fired like all other GMS systems, and so they don't have
That much I know <g> Unfortunately an IAVR in the closest range band has the
same hit probability as a GMS with Enhanced guidance firing at
a target with no ECM, and super-heavy vehicles are rather likely to
have the best ECM they can get. (The difference between Superior and Enhanced
GMS guidance vs. no ECM is almost nil, BTW.) Had the IAVRs
used HW range bands - which, thank heavens, they don't! - then most
SGII gaming tables would be too small to make GMSs worthwhile compared
to IAVRs :-/
> IAVRs are fired like support weapons. They have range bands equal >to
Makes a lot more sense. Means that Regulars ony have a 80+% hit rate
within 160 meters, not 240... realistic against a stationary target of course,
but very impressive against a moving one <g>
Later,