From: Keith Jones <kjones@c...>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 20:51:01 +0100
Subject: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
Played first game of SG2 and enjoyed it but we had a situation where a GMS/P was fired at a unit. Followed the rules on page 40 for GMS die rolls and got a 'fully effective' result. However the rules say that the number of potential hits are determined by dividing the total firer dice by the range dice - GMS's don't have a range dice! How do I determine the number of hits?
From: Rick Norman <thurvin@y...>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 19:44:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
Under standard rules GMS/P cannot be fire effectively at infantry units, only point target like bunker and ACVs. > --- Keith Jones <kjones@globalnet.co.uk> wrote: <HR> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content='"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=GENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV>Played first game of SG2 and enjoyed it but we had a situation where a GMS/P was fired at a unit. Followed the rules on page 40 for GMS die rolls and got a 'fully effective' result. However the rules say that the number of potential hits are determined by dividing the total firer dice by the range dice - GMS's don't have a range dice! How do I determine the number of hits? <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
From: Brian Burger <yh728@v...>
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 19:54:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
> On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Keith Jones wrote: > Played first game of SG2 and enjoyed it but we had a situation where a > GMS/P was fired at a unit. Short answer: You don't. Long answer: GMS are not anti-personnel weapons. They can engage point targets (vehicles, bunkers, etc) but not squads. When firing GMS at vehicles or other point targets, roll GMS system & firer quality (two die) VS target's ECM, instead of the usual range die procedure. See the SG2 Quick Ref card under "Fire Combat" for details on resolving hits. IAVRs can be fired as oneshot anti-personnel weapons; just add one d10 to your normal handful of firing die. GMSs, however, do not have an anti-personnel mode. Hope this helps,
From: Owen Glover <oglover@b...>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:36:32 +1000
Subject: RE: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
OK, so far we've seen a quote from teh SG Rules to the effect taht you CAN'T engage an infantry target with GMS/P and another that you can't EFFECTIVELY engage infantry. Well, the straight answer to your question is divide the defenders die type into the total score of the attackers dice. Now onto what others have picked on as teh thread for discussion. I seem to recall a discussion along these lines about a year ago. Have a close look at the rules and it doesn't actually state that you can't engage infantry with a GMS weapon. But the beauty of SG is how you play it without the "the rules say...." or the "the rules don't say I can't....." approach. Quite obviosuly you can engage an infantry target with ANY weapons system. Set up a Milan, acquire an infantry squad in the open and of course you CAN fire your missile. Total waste of a tank killer round though. And quite likely you'll not do much in the way of casualties compare to the effect of a MAG58 or M60. But you CAN do it. Realistically your squads should not be engaging infantry with a GMS if they are in the open or in soft cover or if there is a LIKELY armour threat. However if the enemy is situated in a hardened defensive position such as a bunker or prepared building it may be a differnet story. If there are no IAVR's in the squad then of course you'd use your best asset to take the enemy out! The GMS!! IMHO the SG rules set is good because it is flexible and a reasonable simulation of small unit engagements when played in the spirit of the game. Cheers, Owen G [quoted original message omitted]
From: Adrian Johnson <ajohnson@i...>
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 00:18:20 -0500
Subject: RE: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
Remember the British troops fighting in the Falklands war used guided missiles against infantry... I seem to remember reading there was an incident in which Argentinian trenches and machine gun bunkers were attacked by British guided missile teams, to great effect - primarily 'cause it freaked the Argentinians out. I think this was when the British officer went forward to accept a surrender and was machinegunned. The British soldiers said "right, then" and opened up with their anti-tank missiles, and the Argentinians quickly abandoned their positions. At the least, being shot at by one of these things may have morale effects, at the very least supressing the target momentarily - and there is always some chance that it could cause damage. If the rocket weighs 10 lbs and has a HEAT warhead, and it hits near a troop unit moving at a couple thousand miles per hour, it will at least create some shrapnel by destroying what it hits and from the warhead casing itself. Obviously it is really unlikely to actually hit a single person, but if it did hit close to someone, it could cause serious damage. > From a "rules" point of view, look at page 40 of the SG2 rulebook. Under "guided missile fire" it says that the GMS/P can't add in to small-arms fire resolution (unlike a buzz-bomb). It doesn't say that you can't fire at infantry, just that you must fire the GMS/P as a separate fire action. If you can do damage to infantry with an IAVR (firepower d10, impact d12 according to chart on page 34, though the text on page 40 says it has firepower d8) shouldn't you be able to do damage to infantry with a GMS/P? The only real difference between the two is in size of rocket motor and guidance package. The warheads are the same (d12, d12x2 for major hit). I would suggest that if you fire a GMS/P vs infantry, one of two methods might be used to resolve the fire: 1. you should roll quality die and guidance die vs. target ECM (d4 for "none" unless you have an ew specialist with the target squad) to see if it hits. If so, then as Owen pointed out, you divide the defender's die type into the attacker total to see how many troops are hit. Then use impact of the GMS/P - usually d12 - to resolve damage. Let's look at a "typical" example. If you take a regular unit firing a GMS/P with "enhanced" (d8) guidance against an infantry squad in hard cover you would be rolling 2d8 vs 1d6 (assuming the infantry doesn't have ECM). Rolls are average, with 4 and 5 on the d8's and 4 on the d6. Unit is supressed, no casualties. If the defender rolls a 3 on the d6 then he is supressed, and suffers 1 potential casualty, 2 if roll 1 through 3 on a d6. Impact is d12, but 'cause in hard cover the armour is shifted up two dice. Not the end of the world. Worst case scenario is the missile hitting troops in the open and rolling well - could do lots of damage. Not any better than an IAVR though. Saying an IAVR will damage troops but a GMS/P won't, when they use the same warhead, doesn't make any sense. I don't see any problem with limiting how effective the GMS/P is - particularly with respect to range - vs infantry, but it should be able to do *something*. 2. An alternative might be to treat the GMS/P as an IAVR for the purposes of attacking dispursed infantry, using guidance die instead of FP die, but defender using range die as per normal. Or say that the guidance system of the missile gives some benefit to the user, so the rangebands are 2xquality, same as with a sniper (not unlimited, 'cause target is really small, but better than normal 'cause of sighting systems). The missile must be fired as a separate fire action. Cover shifts range die as per small arms fire. Anyway, my $0.02. Adrian Quite obviosuly you can engage an infantry target with ANY > weapons system. Set up a Milan, acquire an infantry squad in the open
From: Andrew Martin <Al.Bri@x...>
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 19:50:19 +1200
Subject: Re: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
> Remember the British troops fighting in the Falklands war used guided If the Argentinians were fighting from trenches and sandbagged positions, much like a BUNKER, a antitank missile would be just the right weapon to destroy their BUNKER. This situation of destroying a POINT target with an antitank weapon is covered in the Star Grunt rules. I don't think there's any need to write up special rules to cover this kind of situation. If you firing an antitank weapon at a infantry team, dice randomly for which figure is hit and remove it from play.
From: Robertson, Brendan <Brendan.Robertson@d...>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 10:28:57 +1000
Subject: RE: [SG2]: GSM/P Question
Just look under "Heavy Weapons against dispersed targets", can't remember the page, but it's in the vehicles section of SG. All heavy weapons fired against infantry (including GMS systems) use d8 impact regardless of actual damage potential. It makes it ineffecient when firing a GMS/L at the mongrels, but you have to take what you can get.... [quoted original message omitted]