[SG2] [DS2] A list of questions on TOE and logistics

> Michael Brown

I think it was General Eisenhower

1. What level are Mobile Hospitals attached at?

2. How big is a typical Mobile Hospital unit? Someone got a breakdown
of staffing/vehicles?

3. In a modern setting, IFV crew are A) part of the infantry unit they
transport (each vehicle crew part
        of a squad
B) part of the infantry unit they transport as a separate transport
        platoon
C) really not part of their unit, rather part of an attached armoured unit
under another OIC

4. Logistics people (not counting line infantry, snipers, medics, combat
vehicle crew, air defence, artillery, or engineers, but includign mechanics,
cooks, logistics, other trades, etc). A) How many in an inf platoon? (I
suspect none) B) How many in an inf Company? (attached to Company?) C) How
many in an inf Battalion? (attached to Battalion?) D) How many in an inf
Division? (attached to Division?) I'm looking to figure how many men and how
much equipment is in a
Division/Company/Platoon/Batallion for tranpsort reasons in FT. I
think I have the combat parts down (veh, air def, arty, eng, snipers, ew,
medics, and infantry) but I don't know about the other services numbers. (and
equipment)

5) What percentage of unit mass represents a months operational supplies (yes
this is complex, but has anyone an idea of what would be a good 'fudge' that
we can use that is simple)? This would cover food, fuel, medical supplies,
spare parts, and any other operational spares.

I ask this last because I did a quick calc and figured about 1450 Cap Points
for my Infantry batallion (not counting the logistics guys, any supplies to
speak of, or any organic batallion air units, but with all the other stuff
like engineers, CEVs, EW guys and vehicles etc in place). So what percentage
of this would be required on a monthly basis for A) High Tempo Operations B)
Normal Tempo Operations C) Low Tempo (Conservative) Operations So then I can
use FT shipping capabilities and losses to determine if units should have ammo
restrictions, should lack in resupply, etc. (You can't bring your tank to the
fight, as your freighter with the fuel on it was taken by a privateer).

Anyone in logistics got a suggestion? I'd take the following guesses: 1.
Initial operting supplies should be at least a month of operations (this
represents depoting for a bad outcome, not supplies one expects to use because
supplies should start arriving immediately). 2. Some tentative numbers:
Initial supply: Multiply all CP of the force x2. This represents all the Kit
not seen on the battlefield. For examplemy 1450 Batallion would have another
1450 in tents, etc. etc. This includes the month depoting of supplies.
Resupply: Each month, consumption will be

In Hot/High Tempo situation: 50% (lots of expendables plus
replacements)
In Moderate/Normal Operations: 33%
In Conservative Operations: 20%

If you fall short of the Tempo of your War (ie the enemy is pursuing a high
tempo war but you are only getting 40% supplies), you should start suffering
effects. Worse if you are two levels down. Even worse if you can't make the
minimum 20% contribution because then whole units may either not be capable of
operations or
actually disband/disintegrate.

(So if you have better resupply, you can 'push' the enemy and he starts
operating with penalties).

Now, how to integrate good/bad supply choices:
If you need offplanet supply for vehicle parts or something high tech you
can't make locally, add 5% for each vehicle type or major system
that you can't supply (I can't build DFFG/s and grav units for my
units, add 10%).

Either use the equipment quality rating or come up with a separate general
quality rating for unit equipment (so you can have good
equipment quality but poor maintenance - works great, when it works).

In this case, in general terms, for each major system you have that has a
basic maintenance (poor quality), add 5% to your supply requirement. For each
major system that is superior, subtract 3%. If using primitive and advanced,
use 10% and 5% respectively.

This should allow those interested in campaign games to calculate their supply
requirements roughly. This way one can determine if it is adequate and how
much of the budget should be spent not on BCs but on transports!!!! and how
important convoy defence is vis a vis engaging enemy battle lines. And it
means if you chose to fight a pyrhic battle, you may be dooming yourself in
the long run.

Tom.
/************************************************

I will try to answer as many as I can:

----------
From:	Thomas Barclay
Sent:	Saturday, October 31, 1998 12:39 PM
To:     FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
Subject:	[SG2] [DS2] A list of questions on TOE and logistics

1. What level are Mobile Hospitals attached at?

Corps

2. How big is a typical Mobile Hospital unit? Someone got a breakdown
of staffing/vehicles?

2-300 Personnel

3. In a modern setting, IFV crew are A) part of the infantry unit they
transport (each vehicle crew part
        of a squad

This is true for the US

4. Logistics people (not counting line infantry, snipers, medics, combat
vehicle crew, air defence, artillery, or engineers, but includign mechanics,
cooks, logistics, other trades, etc). A) How many in an inf platoon? (I
suspect none) B) How many in an inf Company? (attached to Company?)

A platoon 10-20 men

C) How many in an inf Battalion? (attached to Battalion?)
A company 2-3 Platoons
D) How many in an inf Division? (attached to Division?) a Brigade 1 Battalion
to support one Brigade

<Snip> Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay
Voice: (613) 831-2018 x 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255

 "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot.  C++ makes
it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
 -Bjarne Stroustrup
**************************************************/

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----------
From:	Thomas Barclay
Sent:	Saturday, October 31, 1998 12:39 PM
To:     FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
Subject:	[SG2] [DS2] A list of questions on TOE and logistics

<Snip>

Anyone in logistics got a suggestion? I'd take the following guesses: 1.
Initial operting supplies should be at least a month of operations (this
represents depoting for a bad outcome, not supplies one expects to use because
supplies should start arriving immediately). 2. Some tentative numbers:
Initial supply: Multiply all CP of the force x2. This represents all the Kit
not seen on the battlefield. For examplemy 1450 Batallion would have another
1450 in tents, etc. etc. This includes the month depoting of supplies.
Resupply: Each month, consumption will be

In Hot/High Tempo situation: 50% (lots of expendables plus
replacements)

Maybe 75%

In Moderate/Normal Operations: 33%

50%?

In Conservative Operations: 20%

33%

<Snip>

If you fall short of the Tempo of your War (ie the enemy is pursuing a high
tempo war but you are only getting 40% supplies), you should start suffering
effects. Worse if you are two levels down. Even worse if you can't make the
minimum 20% contribution because then whole units may either not be capable of
operations or
actually disband/disintegrate.

(So if you have better resupply, you can 'push' the enemy and he starts
operating with penalties). This should allow those interested in campaign
games to calculate their supply requirements roughly. This way one can
determine if it is adequate and how much of the budget should be spent not on
BCs but on transports!!!! and how important convoy defence is vis a vis
engaging enemy battle lines. And it means if you chose to fight a pyrhic
battle, you may be dooming yourself in the long run.

You are staring to talk like a Pro.

Tom.
/************************************************
Thomas Barclay
Voice: (613) 831-2018 x 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255

 "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot.  C++ makes
it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
 -Bjarne Stroustrup
**************************************************/

Michael Brown

"Amateurs talk of tactics, Professionals about Logistics" I can't remember who
said this.

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Michael spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> Anyone in logistics got a suggestion? I'd take the following guesses:

Wow. A modern army eats a lot of stuff... (burns it, whatever). Now I know why
Napoleon said an Army moves on its Stomach. That will demand a big logistics
commitment. Makes fleet to fleet actions seem somewhat pointless compared with
attacking supplies. Makes attacking a planet much nastier as SDBs and such can
hide in the outsystem or gas giants and pop out to attack your weakly defended
shipping.... goodbye supplies, hello world of hurt on the ground...

> You are staring to talk like a Pro.

Thanks. Although I did make a mistake in quoting about 1450 Cap Points for a
Batallion. If I add in your logistics info, and remember we probably want 10%
of our force awake to plan and to get the other up at the destination (the
other 90% can be shipped as fishsticks for 1 CP per body), they eat 4 CPs per
guy for space. So a more realistic figure for the men and gear of an infantry
batallion is about approx 850 men (includes engineers, medics, logistics, air
defence, EW, snipers, arty, and vehicles and guns) and also recalling
that vehicles take 8/5ths their capacity to ship, the real figure is
about 2750 CPs.

That means you should look at shipping (If we figure a month of
high-tempo supplies is 75% of that mass, and we add in another 50%
for other gear like tents and all the crap I haven't accounted for) 2842...
call it 2850 CP for an entire infantry (mechanized) batallion
with organic add ons (minus air and anti-armour of the vehicular
type which might be present). And montly supply ships for a high tempo war
would have to carry 2131 points worth of supplies to keep replacement levels
up in a hot war (or 1425 in regular operations, or 938 CP in conservative
operations). That translates to

Initial Deployment (10% awake to plan, 90% fishsticks, 1 month high tempo
supplies): 114 FT Mass. Resupply: Hot War: 86 FT Mass, Normal 57 MP, and Low
38 MP.

I don't know what a standard freighter carries (in cargo mass) but this should
give you some idea how many are needed to move a battalion (I can, if asked,
provide my composition figures roughly).
It should also let you know how many ships/runs are needed a month to
resupply this force or how much of a force in orbit you will want to keep as a
'floating supply depot (but this is a tempting target for SDBs or raiders)".

Just my 0.02 on campaigns. Goes to show that only a small percentage of the
total mass required is spent shiping line troops and APCs. The rest is spent
on the logistics and other special requirements of war.

Tom.

> "Amateurs talk of tactics, Professionals about Logistics"

Someone had a good one from a German WW2 general about the 'realities of war'
which had little to do with battles, weapons and tactics and more with morale,
hunger, lack of supplies, fear, etc

/************************************************

OK, my input is really only relevant to UK/AUST/NZ

[quoted original message omitted]

----------
From:	Thomas Barclay
Sent:	Saturday, October 31, 1998 5:22 PM
To:     FTGZG-L@bolton.ac.uk
Subject:	RE: [SG2] [DS2] A list of questions on TOE and logistics

Wow. A modern army eats a lot of stuff... (burns it, whatever). Now I know why
Napoleon said an Army moves on its Stomach. That will demand a big logistics
commitment.

Makes energy weapons and Fusion power that much more attractive. your Mobile
Forces have to be more cutting edge with the tech.

Food, water will remain the high bulk, high need items

Michael Brown

/************************************************
Thomas Barclay
Voice: (613) 831-2018 x 4009
Fax: (613) 831-8255

 "C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot.  C++ makes
it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg."
 -Bjarne Stroustrup
**************************************************/

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> Michael Brown wrote:

> Makes energy weapons and Fusion power that much more attractive. your

That's also a major factor. A massive percentage of that is fuel. If
you first-line troops are all FGP-powered grav tanks, than probably 2/3
of that is no longer necessary. FGPs need refueling once every 20 years or so.
Then also, your weapons will need less ammo (at least figured by weight) if
MDC or HEL. MDCs need no propellant and are likely smaller than an equivelant
conventional round, and HELs need no ammo at all.

> Food, water will remain the high bulk, high need items

Even then, both can often be looted.  A FGP-powered Grav-mobile force
may be almost as self-sufficient as a WWI Infantry Corps (See van
Creveld, Supplying War, for discussion of logisitics in WWI).

This is why the local NRE forces (who don't need to load into the bloody
spacecraft that often) are CFE-powered, but the striking force is
FGP/Grav.

> Michael Brown wrote:
your Mobile Forces have to be more cutting edge with the tech.
> That's also a major factor. A massive percentage of that is fuel. If

But you probably need more spares. How many rounds can you
put through a chemical-propellant slug-thrower cannon
(esp. with advances in metallurgy) before you have to replace the barrel? MDC?
HEL?

- Sam

OK I'll take a whcak at this. Answers for the US system. (Agruably the best
when it comes to logistics)

> Thomas Barclay wrote:

> 3. In a modern setting, IFV crew are

The answer is A in the US ARMY. Marine AMTRACKS are seperate units from
infantry they transport.

> 4. Logistics people (not counting line infantry, snipers, medics,

Zero though someone will have theplatoon S$ (Supply) additional duty. Also teh
platoon SGT sees to replenishment also.

> B) How many in an inf Company? (attached to Company?)

About a squad to platoon's worth in HQ company. Supply Sgt, (He might have an
assitant); Armorer; Communications NCO and one or two assistants, a training
(or operations) NCO, and admin clerks (one to two). If the unit is monted
there will be a mechanics section also. Oh yes and the all important cook
section with probably three guys. In bn ops a lot of these guys, (Cooks
especially), will be consoildated at the Bn level. The company XO (2IC in your
parlance?) and the 1st Sgt (CSM) will be responsible for logistics and
replenishment.

> C) How many in an inf Battalion? (attached to Battalion?)

There's a whole support company with a med platoon, staff platoon (They make
up the TOC), supply platoon (very large), communications platoon, maintenance
and what not. Depending on how your configured you can have your platoons
organized in support platoons, that get the take care of the supply needs for
individual companies,and maintenace platoons.(about oa third of these service
troops go forward with eth line companies qnd teh rest make up the battalion
trains The commo platoon hangs with the BN HQ proper and teh med platoons farm
out medics to the line company while the rest together with the BN surgeona nd
PA forms teh bn aid station.

> D) How many in an inf Division? (attached to Division?)

A huge amount! Thers usually a whole support brigade in addition to the
support forces with the line battalion.

> 5) What percentage of unit mass represents a months operational

OK. I'll swag something for you. A squad needs about ton of space just for
their gear when figuring air transport needs. (Just went through this exrcize
getting my team to AFrica and back but I'm scaling it back for line unit.
Figure ten guys at 180lbs each. Ruck and web gear packed with all your stuff
plue weapons at least another 90 lbs. On ong deployments an additioanl bag may
be authorized
with say another 50lbs. One basic load of ammo weighs about 15-20 lbs.
So throw in 4 basic loads at least (more in the FURV). Squad level gear,
commo, etc etc, another 200 lbs. (depends on what you have. Maybe it takes a
while to set up recyling on teh panet.). Chow is 3lbs a day concentrated
rations. Water is 16lbs a day hot climate. Bring 4 days rations and water on
hand. So a single ten man
squad weighs in a:  4800 lbs for four-day operation without offword
replenishment. 1800 of that is bodies, the other 3000 is gear and supplies.
hope that helps. Note that especially at theh end of a long many light year
supply chain, the assault transport should carry enough stuff for sevral days
of high intensity combat.

> [quoted text omitted]

OK I'm trying to remember our rule of thumb.)Damn where a real supply guy when
you ned him?) For AMMO at least figure: (WARNING: YMMV)

> A) High Tempo Operations

4-6 basic loads a day.

> B) Normal Tempo Operations

1 basic load a day

> C) Low Tempo (Conservative) Operations

1 basic load every few days.

> Anyone in logistics got a suggestion? I'd take the following guesses:

This sounds about right.

> 2. Some tentative numbers:

You mean there's infantry that actually uses tents?

Apart with tewking some of the specific numbers I thinik your supply rule
ideas are fine.

> "Amateurs talk of tactics, Professionals about Logistics"
It's a nifty platitude. Unfortunately, a professional deals with both. (And a
REMF emphasizes logistics because it makes him feel better about himself.)

> Samuel Reynolds wrote:

> But you probably need more spares. How many rounds can you

Offhand, I'd say that if the technology were so fragile that this becomes a
major consideration in the time it takes to overrun a colony,
it wouldn't have been adopted as a military weapon.  That's a long-term
concern, measured in tens of thousands of rounds.

> Chris Lowrey wrote:

> It's a nifty platitude. Unfortunately, a professional deals with

You can have the best supplied force in the world, but if it won't fight, it
doesn't mean sh!^.

Conversely, you can have the best, most motivated force in the world, but if
you don't feed it and keep it in ammo, it can't fight. Cut off
it's pay for six months and it generally _won't_ fight.

I would also be interested in any hard information on how many transport
& re-supply assets are usually allocated to, say, a mech infantry unit.

Michael spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> Food, water will remain the high bulk, high need items

</EXPOSE SELF AS SOMEONE WHO REMEMBERS SCIENCE.. MAYBE>
Isn't it possible that some fusion processes produce drinkable water as a
byproduct and that therefore helps here a lot...
</EXPOSE SELF AS SOMEONE WHO REMEMBERS SCIENCE.. MAYBE>

(I could be smoking rope.)

Tom.
/************************************************

> On Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:50:25 Thomas Barclay wrote:

Actually, I think it's the hydrogen fuel cell, which basically 'burns'
hydrogen and oxygen at very high efficiency, producing electricity and water.
It's not a fusion process, as I understand it.

2300AD had these units as closed systems powering starships. The water
was reclaimed and 'cracked' by energy gathered in-system by solar
panels. Then the resulting hydrogen/oxygen was re-used ad infinitum, so
long as a source of electricity to recharge the system was available.

If one used a non-closed version of this system (scoop hydrogen and
other volatiles from gas giants, crack with solar power, use the water that's
the byproduct of 'burning' for consumption) it could be a decent supply, but
would it be the most efficient one?

I'll leave that to the more knowledgable on this list.

-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
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> At 03:39 PM 10/31/98 -0500, you wrote:

Brigade or Division, with larger and better equipped facilities at the
corps / army level.  Battalions have a medical team, "Battalion Aid
Station" or something like that, and may have a medical officer who is a
doctor, but an actual Hospital would be at a higher command level. In the
Canadian army, we have a "Field Ambulance" in each Brigade - a mobile
hospital, which I believe is appx. a Company in size...

> 2. How big is a typical Mobile Hospital unit? Someone got a breakdown

Depends on the type of hospital unit and who it is attached to... A Brigade
"Field Ambulance" is the size of a company. The equivalent attached to an Air
Mobile or Airborne unit would be organized quite differently (lighter, less
vehicles, etc). The Russian Army has a complete field hospital which can be
parachute dropped. The buildings are all inflatable, and the entire hospital
staff (doctors, nurses, tech staff, etc) is parachute trained. They are
equipped for, among other things, arctic operations. I saw pictures of them
from a joint exercise in Alaska in which Canadian SarTechs, USAF Para Rescue
teams and the Russian Airborne Hospital were collectively conducting disaster
relief training, in preparation for an airline disaster in the arctic. In any
event, your hospital could be very light, with only a few light vehicles for
general
duties and ambulance work, or in a mech. brigade/division would have
armoured ambulances/HMMWV-equivalent ambulances and be completely truck
mounted...   As to specific staffing/vehicles...  sorry

> 3. In a modern setting, IFV crew are

Could be any one of these three - all are presently used in various
militaries.    One possibility you didn't mention is that the IFV crew
could be attached as part of the infantry unit they transport, but not part of
a squad ie: a platoon has, say for IFV's with a crew of 3 and carrying 8
infantiers. The 12 IFV crew could be administratively part of the platoon, but
are not attached to a particular squad. I think "C" is not
too likely in a "modern" setting - the infantry commanders would want
direct control over the IFV's so they are used as per the infantry commander's
plan and not with potentially conflicting sets of priorities, etc. If the
IFV's are part of a completely separate unit, they might not take "ownership"
or feel responsibility to the infantry they carry. IFV's role is to support
the infantry, and they might get visions of themselves as a separate combat
element ie US Bradley IFV's with big gun and missiles
can act as Cavalry vehicles - maybe the commanders would see the
infantry as an annoyance rather than their primary responsibility... Unless,
as with the Cavalry Regiments in the US Army, they are TASKED as a Cavalry
type unit, and equipped for it...

> 4. Logistics people (not counting line infantry, snipers, medics,

None.

> B) How many in an inf Company? (attached to Company?)

Company Quarter Master and a couple of assistants, maybe - normally few
to none.

> C) How many in an inf Battalion? (attached to Battalion?)

Canadian Infantry Battalions have a service support company with a
maintenance platoon (oversize unit with like 60 personnel, I think -
divided up into various specialties), a transport platoon (these people
transport supplies, not other troops - this is the unit in the battalion
that carries and dispenses all the fuel, oil, ammo, food, etc.), and possibly
an administration section that does all the battalion admin
work -
though this might be part of the battalion HQ... There will also be an
attached field kitchen staffed with several kitchen vehicles (one for the
HQ and maybe one for each of the companies) - they try, as much as
possible, to provide a hot meal for the rest of the battalion... There
will be signallers/communication troops as part of the Battalion
headquarters, though in a Canadian army brigade there is also a Signals
Squadron (company) which supplies signals services. A battalion will also have
a medical section attached, with a couple of ambulances. If the battalion is
acting "independantly" as a Battalion Battle Group, the brigade commander may
assign further support resources as needed. The total number of support people
in a battalion is appx equiv to a reinforced
company - say 150 to 200 - though I don't have an exact number handy
now.

> D) How many in an inf Division? (attached to Division?)

Lots - depends on the division.  The 10th Light (Mountain) Infantry
Division at Fort Drum, New York is, I believe, under 10,000 total numbers
(more like 8,500 I think). The big mechanized divisions might have as many as
18,000. Heavier divisions, (like a US Mech Inf), need a LOT more support
strength. Figure a brigade size support component or larger. It is not
uncommon for the support personnel to equal or outnumber the fighting
personnel in these large formations. Not in a battalion or company or platoon,
but generally these are not designed for truely "independent" operations. In
Canadian doctrine, the Brigade is the smallest unit capable of sustained
"independent" operations normally, and even then a brigade (unless set up
differently ahead of time) is normally
only capable or sustaining operations for a few days, maybe a week -
particularly at high-tempo operational levels.  A battalion may carry
food and ammo for up to 3 days unsupported, but does not have much reserve,
especially with the more technical stuff like big spare parts... For really
independent operations, you need the resources of a division or corps (like
the big workshop facilities needed to change a tank turret,
etc. - you can't have those units at the Brigade or Battalion level
'cause they are too big, static, etc.)

My uncle was a REME Gunfitter (Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) in
the late 50's and through the 60's. He was assigned at various times to field
workshops which were small repair units equipped with machine tools (lathes,
mills, etc) which operated out of trucks in the field and could provide a
surprising level of maintenance to a relatively small unit. You could deploy a
field workshop at the Battalion Battle Group level, but this
isn't usually done.  One place it is - I believe 45 Commando of the
Royal
Marines has an attached REME workshops unit - this is a reinforced
battalion designed for sustained independent operations - but even then
it would rely greatly on fleet support...

<Incidentally and completely unrelated, my uncle discovered early on in his
career that the British Army paid bonuses for shooting ability - the
better you shot, the better you were paid. This was to encourage soldierly
skills
and marksmanship among ALL army members - kind of makes sense I guess.
Anyway, he wanted the extra cash so spent a lot of time perfecting his skills,
as was consistantly rated at the highest level of marksmanship. The extra
money was nice, but the downside to this was that as an experienced NCO (he
was eventually a Sergeant, and even as a REME he was expected to be fully
proficient as an infantry leader) who was also a top marksman, whenever the
British Army had to go off to some far away place and fight, it was guys like
him who were taken along to provide logistic and technical support. So he
ended up fighting in Aden, Borneo (or Malaya
- I forget which, maybe both) etc.  He did stuff like servicing weapons
at SAS jungle camps (he was actually asked to join the SAS, but they couldn't
get him to jump out of airplanes, so he never did...). At one point he was put
in charge of a patrol of Gurkhas (I think they rotated the NCO's from units
like the REMEs into infantry postings to keep up their combat skills)
- he told me he never realized that a proper traditional Kukri set was
actually two knives. They used the big one, which we are familiar with, for
hunting, stalking sentries, etc, and the little one was a skinning knife. The
gurkhas were never taken prisoner (they wouldn't surrender and very rarely
would stop fighting enough to be captures) and didn't take a friendly attitude
to the communist insurgents (terrorists?? depends on which side you were on, I
guess) who they captured. He found out how they used the skinning knives when
the gurkha unit he was with captured
prisoners...  Stuff they don't talk about in the history books.   He did
have a lot or admiration for the Gurkhas - once when stationed in Hong
Kong patrolling along the mainland border with China, his section was looking
down at the vast Chinese army encampments just outside the Hong Kong border.
There were thousands of Chinese troops, and his eight Gurkhas. The senior
Gurkha (a corporal) took a look, smiled, and said "OK. Fair
odds.">

> On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Jim 'Jiji' Foster wrote:

man, that is some serious polypropylene you have there...

> Actually, I think it's the hydrogen fuel cell, which basically 'burns'

ka-tick. you could make water by fusion, but you'd need to stick about
32 hydrogens together to make each oxygen atom, and we don't currently have
any idea how to build a reactor like that. actually, we do; it's something
like 'assemble a gazillion tonnes of hydrogen. put in one place. wait.'
but it's not terribly practical :-).

> 2300AD had these units as closed systems powering starships. The water

as it is used now - space station / shuttle / whatever runs on solar
panels in light side of orbit and charges cells. runs off cells in dark half.

> If one used a non-closed version of this system (scoop hydrogen and

where do you get the oxygen again? not all that much of it in top layers of
gas giants, iirc. not even co2. i could well be wrong here, it's a while since
i did xenogeology.

an easier way to get water in space would probably be to harpoon bergs from
the rings of gas giants. even jupiter has a fair amount. i think this
came up a while back in the steam-powered spaceship thread.

> I'll leave that to the more knowledgable on this list.

no way! ignorance rules!

Tom

Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:

> >3. In a modern setting, IFV crew are

That was sort of what I meant with B.

> > D) How many in an inf Division? (attached to Division?)
It
> is not uncommon for the support personnel to equal or outnumber the

Except I'd say that in the future, with transport costs, training costs, the
vast distances of space and vast areas to cover, you are more likely to have
Battalions appearing as a 'battle group' and Companies being independently
deployed as not that uncommon. Of course I mean on colonies... not the Inner
areas or the Core. Therefore I think one has to consider the impact of having
fully autonimous formations of smaller sizes and what that means to their
support requirements. (My point is, having one ship drop into an
area with even a small company combat formation is unlikely - it
takes a big ship to move the company, and another several to move the
assets that let them support independent ops - hence it's probably a
fleet action in any reckoning..... and that is to deploy a company! Deploying
a Brigade or Division... WOW!!!)

> My uncle was a REME Gunfitter (Royal Electrical and Mechanical
You
> could deploy a field workshop at the Battalion Battle Group level, but

My point exactly.... this is the type of unit that needs to be deployed at a
lower level to support independent operations.

> <Incidentally and completely unrelated, my uncle discovered early on

Should have joined the SBS.

At one point he was
> put in charge of a patrol of Gurkhas (I think they rotated the NCO's

Yep. I lived with a lady whose husband had been an officer for the Ghurkas,
before he became bodygaurd to King Farouk. (British Army). Her son was a
Sergeant in the SAS. I've heard about the Ghurkas that have competed at the
Canadian Army Infantry Competitions as guests.... remind me NEVER to mess with
anyone who can do the things I heard them do....

The gurkhas were never taken prisoner (they wouldn't surrender and
> very rarely would stop fighting enough to be captures) and didn't take

My Grandad (Highland Light Infantry, WWI) reported that they actually had to
send Ghurkas out of his area of the lines. They used to put the big Kukri in
their teeth, crawl out into NoMan's land at night, come back with....ears!....
and string them around their necks (counting). It didn't gross them out, but
the smell was causing problems with other units they were working with.

   He did
> have a lot or admiration for the Gurkhas - once when stationed in Hong
Fair
> odds.">

Crazy, tough, fearless little buggers. And tough as nails. Hard to get in to
be a Ghurka, and a special kind of honour involved. I think they are a great
military unit (NAC would still have them I imagine or else they'd be the
worlds highest priced Mercenaries) and hope someone casts a squad someday....
:) I think for some enemies, they might inspire TERROR as per Stargrunt rules.

Ayo Ghurkali!

Tom.
/************************************************