Hi guys
Here's one for you that came up the other night and was (I think) lost in the
list speed bumps of late.
SG2 rulebook seems to presume close assault is launched with the intent of
taking an objective of tactical significance rather than launched with the
express intent to cause casualties.
However, the other night, a squad in the open was CA'd by another squad. The
defending squad had no position to defend, so they wanted to beat feet.
Several questions came up.
1) The defender had 1 suppression. Can they leave? The suppression rules would
seem to indicate no, but the CA rules themselves make no mention of this and
the only thing they seem to restrict while suppressed is reaction fire.
2) Assuming they can bug out (which I let them do), what are the effects? Does
this affect their morale? Must they still test to "stand for CA" even if they
break so as to possibly drop them a confidence level or two?
3) In actual fact, they bugged out and moved 8". They then activated, cleared
suppresion, and cut to bits the pursuer who'd chased them with a feeble 6"
roll. It seemed odd to me that you could beat feet away from an attack, pull
up short (given the attackers never stopped chasing you) and kick the crap out
of them with point blank fire. This seemed like cheese. What should have
happened according to the rules?
4) If you let a suppressed unit flee at all, should they have to move to cover
before removing their suppression (taking a page from an FMA suggestion about
suppressed in the open)? Should this apply more generally to other suppression
in the open cases?
Without knowing for sure, I'd have suggested
1) You can move, with 1 or less suppressions on you, when CA'd. You must
retreat to cover if you have a suppression before removing it. Alternately,
the retreat places one upon you and therefore you must do this. This prevents
the fleeing defender from suddenly turning around and firing cohesively.
2) As an alternative, any retreat from a close assault will automatically be
considered to put the squad out of unit cohesion and therefore a re-org
must be taken. If you also have a suppression, you have to remove it too
before you can fire back (so effectively, if both disorganized and suppressed
and fleeing, you can't pull up short and gut your pursuer with direct fire).
3) A further alternative is to say being close assaulted consumes your
action for a round - therefore you can't activate again until the next
round. It would be a good penalty for being assaulted.
4) If you have 2+ suppressions, you are pinned hard and can't leave and
must eat the close assault.
Comments on what the rules say that I've missed or not interpreted right?
Comments on my suggestions or the situation?
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> 1) The defender had 1 suppression. Can they leave? The suppression
[Bri] While not covered by the rules, I would say that they could
withdraw. I.e. The threat of being shot at close range in the CA is greater
than the threat of being shot at long range. After the withdraw, they would
still have the suppression marker.
> 2) Assuming they can bug out (which I let them do), what are the
even
> if they break so as to possibly drop them a confidence level or two?
[Bri] The rules indicate that they still take the Confidence Test and
the result even if they elect to withdraw. But if they pass the test, thier
confidence is unchanged.
> 3) In actual fact, they bugged out and moved 8". They then activated,
and
> kick the crap out of them with point blank fire. This seemed like
[Bri] Hmmm. In DS2 under a close assault, both the attacker and
defender's markers are inverted, indicating that performing the CA and
reacting to the CA uses up the actions of both attacker and defender of a CA.
In rereading the SG2 rules, this does not seem to be the case. Jon T., is this
an oversight? So, it is legal by the rules, but I would suggest a house rule
that mirrors the DS2 rules: a performing a CA or reacting to a CA uses up both
actions of the attacker and defender (if the defender does not have any
actions left, it may still defend against the CA).
> 4) If you let a suppressed unit flee at all, should they have to move
[snip]
[Bri] I woudl choose this to harmonize DS2 and SG2:
> 3) A further alternative is to say being close assaulted consumes your
[snip]
> Comments on what the rules say that I've missed or not interpreted
My comments marked by [Bri]
Hi,
> 1) You can move, with 1 or less suppressions on you, when CA'd. You
Alternately,
> the retreat places one upon you and therefore you must do this. This
I would modify this and add the following:
You have to make a leadership test to beat feet in some semblance of order. If
you fail the test, the squad can still beet feet, but they automatically drop
THREE levels of morale (complete disorganization, more likely to rout the
squad as they all head for the hills with the leader first...). If you pass
the test, then follow the "#2" below. This makes retreating from a CA a
difficult thing for a unit to come through in good order, and be able to
immediately respond, which makes sense.
Penalties to the test? Standard ones, I guess. And a BIG penalty to morale if
you leave wounded behind.
> 2) As an alternative, any retreat from a close assault will
But this penalizes troops who haven't been activated over those who have. If
it costs a unit it's action for the round to retreat, what about a unit
that has been activated already? Do they lose the option to retreat?
I'd leave this one out. Make the squad take a big hit to morale, and I think
that's plenty. Of course, another option is to give the attacking squad the
option of continuing the assault against a voluntarily retreating enemy. There
are lots of examples of troops close assaulting the *enemy* rather than the
enemy *position*, because they are angry, or whatever.
> 4) If you have 2+ suppressions, you are pinned hard and can't leave and
Yes.
> Comments on what the rules say that I've missed or not interpreted
It's a good idea.
My suggestion are as follows:
1) Supression has an effect only on your activation
2) If you lose your reaction to CA or the CA you gain 2 suppression, if you
win you gain 1.
The reason for rule two comes from the fact that units become really, really
disorganized during an assault. This has been true since ancient times.
It
takes some time for the NCO's afterwards to gather everyone together and
have them act as a team again.
Assaulting a unit that is supressed gaurentees it will be totally supressed
after the action. Of course you might be too but who cares.
It makes attacking disorganized units much more profitable. I think it would
be realistic. I see suppression as more than just huddling scared, but also as
disorganized and not acting as a unit but as a collection of
individuals.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:37:07 -0500, "Barclay, Tom" <tomb@bitheads.com>
wrote:
> However, the other night, a squad in the open was CA'd by another
The first time I played SG2 (at a convention) the house rule/ruling that
they used allowed for units to voluntarily retreat in certain circumstances.
One of those circumstances was in response to a charge into close assault.
I like keeping the rules as close to written as possible, and to keep them as
simple as possible. Therefore, I'd let the unit retreat but treat it exactly
as though it had failed the Reaction Test to stick around. That is, they can
retreat their base move or 6" AND they lose a Confidence Level. As implied by
the rules, they can do this even if suppressed.
On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:37:07 -0500, "Barclay, Tom" <tomb@bitheads.com>
wrote:
> However, the other night, a squad in the open was CA'd by another
Oops. Ignore my last post. It seems that it IS covered by the rules.
The rules do allow for the unit to retreat voluntarily (top of the right hand
column, page 41).
It's implied that the following happens:
1) Attacker charges and makes Confidence Test. 2) Defender makes Confidence
test. Defender loses CL if fails the Confidence Test. 3) Defender voluntarily
retreats 6" or base move. 4) Attacker occupies vacated position.
5) If attacker chooses to make Follow-through move, he makes a Reaction
Test. If passed, makes a combat move towards retreating defender. 6) If
attacker makes it into contact with defender, defender may choose to stay or
voluntarily leave. Either way, he makes a Confidence Test and applies results.
7) If defender retreats, attacker takes up this new position, and the assault
is over.
> 1) The defender had 1 suppression. Can they leave? The suppression
Actually, the rules allow a suppressed unit to make a defensive fire. The
rules are on page 43, and they must make a Reaction Test to do so (TL = to the
number of suppression markers).
Since a suppressed unit that fails the Confidence Test to stay put during
close assault must retreat, and the rules state that a unit can voluntarily
retreat from a close assault, it's implied that a unit with a suppression
marker can also retreat from close assault.
> 2) Assuming they can bug out (which I let them do), what are the
even
> if they break so as to possibly drop them a confidence level or two?
Yes. The rules state that the unit must still make the Confidence Test. The
wording is a little muddy, but it says, "Should the defender withdraw (he may
elect to do so voluntarily if desired, irrespective of the Confidence Test
result)..." Okay, so it is implied that the Confidence Test is still
made...
> 3) In actual fact, they bugged out and moved 8".
Uh, uh, uh! The rules state that they retreat 6" or their base move. So,
encumbered troops may still move 6", but Power Armour could move further. If
this squad wasn't PA, it could only move 6".
> They then activated,
In reality, they should have contacted them.
> It seemed odd to me that you could beat feet away from an
and
> kick the crap out of them with point blank fire. This seemed like
That is how the rule should be applied.
Imagine a group in the open being close assaulted, they turn tail and run, and
the sergeant of the unit sees they are being pursued. "Quick, boys, they're
chasing us! Let 'em have it!" The unit drops prone, and fires back at the
enemy who are chopped to pieces.
I can see it happening. Don't think of it as the squad waiting until the enemy
is almost on top of them before retreating. Think of the squad seeing the
charge, and immediately retreating. They run away, a few seconds later the
attackers get to the vacated position and run straight through, perhaps
pausing for a moment. They then pursue, but not before their pursuers turn
around and let them have it.
> 4) If you let a suppressed unit flee at all, should they have to move
That's not implied in the rules. I'd say no.
Having gone over the rules, the situation is pretty clear (except for the
implied parts about a unit with suppression being allowed to retreat).