I posted a message to rec.games.miniatures.misc about a lack of 15mm SF
figures and vehicles, echoing a thread that we had hear on the mailing list.
In response, a company called Enigma Miniatures wants to supply this possible
market.
Enigma Miniatures is a Quebec based miniatures manufacturer that so far seems
to be producing GW style figures at a much lower cost. They asked me if there
was a market for 15mm SF, and what kind of figures I'd like to see. It seems
that they aren't interested in just doing a couple of sets of figures and
vehicles, they want to do an entire range!
Anyway, I told them about Stargrunt 2 and explained that in my opinion it is
best played as a 15mm game. I told them that I would post this to the list.
What they want is feedback. They want to know what kind of figures you would
like to see, and what kind of vehicles. Do you want GW style figures, or
Traveller style, or more conventional figures? Do you want your APCs to look
like Hammer's Slammers hovertanks, Eldar gravtanks, or
Abrams/Challenger/Leopard 2s? How many figures would you need? How many
vehicles?
If you want 15mm figures, send an email to: gaming@sympatico.ca
This sounds like a good chance to influence a product line specifically for
the type of SG2 games we would like to play. In fact, I'm going to suggest a
Hammer's Slammers line.
Okay, I'll just say a few things about Enigma.
The company was started by a fellow who used to be a distributor who
specialized in GW products. He gave good discounts and was excellent to
deal with, by the accounts of my preferred local retailer.
Once GW froze him out, he started a miniature company and immediately set his
sights on GW's market. Fact is, there's plenty of room to make yourself the
lower priced alternative and be relatively profitable. Unfortunately, there
was no market for his product. Like so many other miniature companies, he
lacked the advertising and momentum to be seen as a major competitor, and with
few retailers carrying him and kids passing his models up because they aren't
shown painted in WD and aren't exactly as sketched in the Codex or army book,
well, he's stuck.
Credit him with persistence though. He wrote me (having somehow somewhere
found that I was running a Blood Bowl league low these many years ago) and
asked me what miniatures I wanted to see from Enigma. Now he's offering the
possibility of an entire line to Allan. I think he'd do it, too.
I think if we tell him what we want, the stumbling block will be distributors
and retailers, not Enigma.
Oh, and I might as well say, not everyone loves the miniatures Enigma first
put out. Quality wise, they look like GW miniatures of 5 or 6 years ago, maybe
a notch below Silent Death 1st edition. That means their sculptor(s) are still
learning and improving, likely. The character was there, but
don't expect the over-detailed GW models or the tight details of the
early Star Trek models for the FASA era ship combat.
Hello Tom,
Here is a question for you - can you ask him if he would be interested
in doing production runs of OGRE minitures? If he can get in tight with Steve
Jackson Games, he might be able to "ride on their coattails" as it were with
regards to becoming a "known" company...
> Hello Tom,
Hear, hear! Excellent idea! (though I think it was Allan who first started
this thread; oh, what the heck, both of 'em can ask!:).
I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a mix of miniatures, some kinda sorta along
the lines of GWs stuff, and others more....conventional.
Alien critters would be good, too. A whole horde. ;-) Maybe there
could be a line of figs that look vaguely (and I thrown this in for our
favorite
supporter of Centauri-oppressed races) ....like Narns!
Mk
In message <199702062103.QAA07547@smtp1.sympatico.ca> Allan Goodall writes:
> I posted a message to rec.games.miniatures.misc about a lack of 15mm
Excellent.
> Anyway, I told them about Stargrunt 2 and explained that in my opinion
Well, God forbid we get another GW-esque range of Space Wombles with
unconvincingly short-barreled weapons without shoulder-stocks, waving
swords around. Gothic, my arse.
I'm not sure what is meant by Traveller-style.
I suppose for Stargrunt I'd be after figures not-unlike the actual
GZG Stargrunt range, modern-looking figures with distinctively not-
twentieth-century-looking uniforms and futuristic details. It suits
the whole modern-with-futuristic-details feel of the game.
The problem with the GZG figures is that they are not posed with much drama.
"Sniper being obvious", "soldier standing around looking
vacant", "officer pointing into middle-distance" could so easily have
been "sniper crouching, observing with binox", "soldier running for cover",
"officer waving frantically and shouting abuse". So I'd look for really
dramatic poses. Anybody standing up should be running. Anybody shooting should
be kneeling at least, very heavy armour, perhaps, excepted.
Another plus-point would be lots of clutter; extra magazines, night-
vision devices, anti-vehicle rockets, radios, maps, knives, binox,
entrenching tools, canteens. Things like that.
No bloody chainswords and powerthingies.
I suppose that for 15mm figures in general, I'd look to Irregular Miniatures
for an example of how to do them. They don't have a particularly good SF range
in this scale, sadly. In general their figures are not the most beautiful
things to look at unpainted. They have character, paint up well, and usually
have a great variety, with the same sort of figure being made in up to six
varients.
As for vehicles, again I'd go for modern-with-futuristic-touches. Low
and flat would be much better than tall and thin. Clutter would be good, but
resin doesn't do clutter so well. I suppose some spare lead clutter could be
produced seperately for modellers to go wild with. APC's would be good, as
would trucks and jeeps. Something like a hummer could be converted into
endless variants. Tanks I can live without.
Well, that's my humble opinion, sent to the list, and to the address Allan
gave.
The only problem with Narn models is that the sculptor doesn't do much to
distinguish them. It's really in the playing and painting of them.
OTOH, the market is there...
How about some Dune Fremen,in any scale? They don't have to be officially
licensed or anything,just some grubby infantry types with stil-suits a
la the movie. Has anyone found a good line of minis that resemble Fremen?
-Scott (Gummi Worms would make excellent 15 mm Arrakis sandworms!!! :)
> On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, trapper wrote:
> How about some Dune Fremen,in any scale? They don't have to be
Actually, come to think of it, the Citadel 28mm Van Saar miniatures for
their Necromunda game come pretty close. No nose-plugs, but this sort of
a modular padded suit is their standard. Check them out (and don't mind the
green paintjob you usually see on them...).
I'm looking for repulsor vehicles from Star Wars, specifically floating tanks
and armored personnel carriers. Phil P.
I'm sure you could convert some 19th cenbtury turkish or ottoman turks to
scrub up as fremen.
> David Brewer wrote:
Most magnificent indeed. I've been trying (with varying success) to get more
15mm figs for the past couple of years. It's just impossible to do SF gaming
any justice with 25mm.
> Anyway, I told them about Stargrunt 2 and explained that in my
My vote is for the more traditional Traveller style (with lots of NPC,
civilian, terrorist etc. figs being essential), Hammer's Slammers type
vehicles would be an added bonus. I am partial to powered armour and maybe a
few swords on civilians for flavour, but weaponry must be believable.
Vehicles should match the troops they were with: wheeled/tracked if low-
tech; hover for medium; grav for the top of the range guys.
> Well, God forbid we get another GW-esque range of Space Wombles with
Look, it works for the kids that are their primary market. It's the relative
proportion of the figures that really grates with me, a gorilla would be proud
of some of those chests and arms.
> I'm not sure what is meant by Traveller-style.
The official Traveller ranges were a magnificent series by GW and (I think)
Ral Partha. They had everything from very neat Starship Troopers
powered armour down to 'low-tech', nearly twentieth century troops for
backwards planets. Good stuff if you can find them.
> I suppose for Stargrunt I'd be after figures not-unlike the actual
OK for low-tech, but I'd also prefer to have some neater, more advanced
looking types.
> The problem with the GZG figures is that they are not posed with
Got to disagree with you here. I really can't stand 'action' poses, and much
prefer to have the more casual, relaxed look. To me it is more realistic, you
very rarely get to see troops running around unless they really have to.
> In message <kokz0FAVZ7$yEwfX@caws.demon.co.uk> Steve Gill writes:
[...]
> >Well, God forbid we get another GW-esque range of Space Wombles with
Fair point. It's one that I'm in two minds about, though. One mind says
anything that undercuts GW can't be a bad thing, while another says that
anything that encourages this dreadful gothic style, and the dreadful rules
that accompany them can't be a good thing, either.
I leave it in the hands of market forces, and ignore it.
> It's the
...yet if you scope out the cut-away diagramme of power armour from
Rogue Trader, you'd be hard pressed to get a skeleton inside it...
The weapons really grate with me. Weapons should be long and thin. Ask Freud.
Ask an engineer. Any device for accelerating projectiles should be long. I'm
told that's true for lasers also.
Mind you, particle accelerators can be bent into circles... bring on the
Souzaphones of Death.
> >I'm not sure what is meant by Traveller-style.
Well, I've never been too enamoured of the Traveller "tech-level"
thing, technology being so rigidly stratified strikes me as extremely
counter-intuitive. Nor have I ever seen any hard-SF power armour
sculpted that I didn't want to improve with a lump-hammer. Designs
that play to a particular genre-styling work alright within their
milieu (50's retro, Bubblegum Crisis, even gothic wombles) but I've never been
convinced yet by that which would seem neutral and 'realistic'.
Plenty of civilians, as you mention, would be a good thing, likewise
police, guerilla insurgents etc. Nuns-with-guns I can leave.
> >I suppose for Stargrunt I'd be after figures not-unlike the actual
Out of interest, advanced in what way? This may be the sort of rash statement
that seems laughable after a few years... but where does military combat
uniform go from now? The last century has moved decisively away from tight
tunics and fashionable hats. How would a New Aglian Royal Marine differ from
Royal Marine c.1982? weatherproof loose clothing, body armour, webbing,
grenades, ammo, rifle, IAVR, canteens, green beret, bushy moustache and a
cheerful grin...
Neat? Even with sleek power armour, you need that clutter with all the ammo,
dressings, rations, letters from your mum...
> >The problem with the GZG figures is that they are not posed with
> >been "sniper crouching, observing with binox", "soldier running for
Well, I agree that troops, realistically, don't want to run around.
Realistically, when the shooting/game starts, they want to lie down
and/or hind behind something. Who'd blame them?
Realistic combat poses would, I suppose, run to "prone/crawling",
"prone/aiming", "prone/wishing-it-would-all-go-away", "prone/hurt".
Yet, harsh taskmasters that we are, we propel them forward to do or die. Prone
figure to my thinking, would be neither very flexible in use or marketable
(though infinitely preferable in 6mm). That leaves me with running, crouching
and kneeling. Two squads blazing away at each other while the figures lounge
around and yawn doesn't really yank my visual chain.
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:07:12 GMT
...
> The weapons really grate with me. Weapons should be long and thin.
Agreed.
> Ask Freud. Ask an engineer. Any device for accelerating projectiles
<g>
> Out of interest, advanced in what way? This may be the sort of rash
weatherproof
> loose clothing, body armour, webbing, grenades, ammo, rifle, IAVR,
Personal faves would be combat environment suits for most troops, and also
tight tunics and fashionable hats for others, like those in the film version
of Dune.
> At 11:23 PM 2/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
That would be kind of cool. Send an e-mail to the company and let them
know what you want.
> At 11:04 PM 2/6/97 -0400, Tom wrote:
<<snippage>>
Good info on the company, Tom.
My understanding is that Enigma are selling stuff via the web, now. It could
be that this line might work as an e-mail available line. However, if he
thinks there's a vast market for 15mm SF, I think he's mistaken. Outside of
SG2, most SF rules sets are going the GW route of 28mm+ sized figures.
> At 11:19 PM 2/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
Yep, it was me. If you want to see some stuff, e-mail the company
directly (as I mentioned in the original message). I think they want to see
individual interest to get a feel for the size of the market. If you want
some figures, the e-mail address is:
> David Brewer wrote:
> Look, it works for the kids that are their primary market.
I know how you feel. Their prices suck and should be fought, but on the other
hand their games suck and shouldn't be encouraged futher. On the other other
hand they DO attract a lot of kids into gaming, some of whom DO go on to
bigger and 'better' things.
> I leave it in the hands of market forces, and ignore it.
It might work, but I doubt it. No one has the marketing and advertising muscle
to deal with GW.
> It's the
True, but I have the answer. They're all really Boomers escaped from BGC, the
power armour thing is just a smokescreen.
> The weapons really grate with me. Weapons should be long and thin.
Yup, the longer the better for power concentration and accuracy both. So long
as the weapon isn't unbalanced.
> Mind you, particle accelerators can be bent into circles... bring on
Or make it tighter and have long and bulky.
> Well, I've never been too enamoured of the Traveller "tech-level"
Hey the tech-level thing happens even now. Ever tried comparing third
world armies and militias to first world forces? What about the colonial
period - spears, bows, and swords vs machine guns and cannon - great
stuff.
Power armour design is a personal thing. I like smooth and not too cluttered,
just the bare necessities.
> Plenty of civilians, as you mention, would be a good thing, likewise
Aaaah, but I just love those nuns...
> Out of interest, advanced in what way? This may be the sort of rash
Ever see the 80s design 'battle suit 2000'? Smooth all-over heavy grade
Kevlar (repaintable to the cammo pattern of your choice as needed), helmet
with laser designator etc, AT rockets in the backpack, mineproof boots. Good
stuff, and they're still improving the design.
> Neat? Even with sleek power armour, you need that clutter with all
Yeah, but most of those are in your 'living' pack, not on your combat rig. You
drop all the unnecessary stuff when the kaka hits.
> Well, I agree that troops, realistically, don't want to run around.
Who does?:)
> Realistically, when the shooting/game starts, they want to lie down
Funnily enough it has to be drummed into people. Most people just stand there
looking around when shooting starts.
> Realistic combat poses would, I suppose, run to "prone/crawling",
In actual shooty shooty combat yup, those and running like the clappers when
it's your turn in fire and movement.
> Yet, harsh taskmasters that we are, we propel them forward to do or
Maybe, though that's what they'd be doing most of the time. I do have a
preference for walking to just plain lounging, a little bit of movement is far
better than none.
Really it's whatever suits you. I just have a thing for the casual look and
prefer it every time, have done since some time in the, <ulp, gack, whisper>,
seventies. Mind you action poses weren't much cop back then.
I also use my figures a lot for role-playing, combat poses somehow just
don't look right in RPGs most of the time.
> At 11:59 PM 2/10/97 +0000, Steve Gill wrote:
Agreed.
> My vote is for the more traditional Traveller style (with lots of NPC,
Have you sent an e-mail to Enigma miniatures suggesting this?
> The official Traveller ranges were a magnificent series by GW and (I
Originally the range was Martian Metals. It was licenced in Britain to Citadel
(before they were part of the GW conglomerate). RAFM (not Ral Partha) had a
licence to do Citadel figures. I have some old Citadel Traveller, Orcs, and
Dwarf cannons molded by RAFM.
> Alan Goodall wrote:
> The official Traveller ranges were a magnificent series by GW and (I
Are you sure about this? The Martian Metal minis were MUCH worse than the
GW /Citadel ones. It seemed to me (at the time, and now, looking at them
again) that they MUST have been two different lines.
Has anyone looked at the Starguard miniatures from Reverisco to fill this gap?
I know we have talked about them before, but I think them are around 20mm, and
sculpted well enough to look good on the gaming table when painted with some
care. I really liked the powered armor guys I got at 10 for $10.
This last week I picked up two packs of the Heavy Gear 15mm infantry from
RAFM. Each pack was $10 US and has 20 minis in two poses. Each pack also comes
with a sprue of additional weapons. The packs I picked up are both from the
"blue side" (I didn't pay any attention to the names). One is Heavy Infantry
in full light armor (DGII terms) with a trooper carrying a largish
one shot missile/rocket launcher and the other carrying a fairly long
barrelled rifle. The other pack is standard infantry in partial light armor
and wearing some sort of jacket with one trooper carrying a rather short rifle
and one trooper carrying the long automatic weapon. Sculpting and detail on
these is pretty good. The store also had recon infantry on motorcycles, a pack
of "snipers: which had troopers with a variety of weapons, and light artillery
pieces. Oh yeah and there were a bunch of mecha too:). Worth checking out for
15mm....
> At 10:50 AM 2/13/97 -0600, John Kovalic wrote:
I had an old game article that mentioned this, but I've since heard from
others that the Citadel molds were different from the Martian Metals molds.
I'm no longer sure, anymore. It could very well be that the Citadel stuff was
licensed in the UK and then produced in North America through RAFM and their
Citadel deal.
> At 12:12 PM 2/14/97 -0500, you wrote:
Yeow! Just for the record, they sell up here for $10 Canadian. That works out
to about $7.40 US. Provinicial and federal sales tax (PST and GST) will bump
this up to $11.50 Canadian. If any of you are heading to GenCon this year and
would like me to pick some Heavy Gear stuff up, we can probably arrange
something.
> At 10:50 AM 2/13/97 -0600, John Kovalic wrote:
The old Citadel ranges (sold in boxes of 20 figs) were certainly VERY
different from the Martian Metals stuff, and yes, AFAIK the Citadel ones
were produced under license by RAFM for the US/Canadian market. What
little I have seen from MM was pretty crude and stumpy, while the Citadel ones
were really excellent. BTW, I believe that Metal Magic in Germany also did
some Traveller (or
Traveller-esque) 15mms only a few years back (some of which MAY have
been
connected with the old Citadel stuff, I'm not sure) - can any of our
Continental members confirm this or shed any further light?