I know that this has been asked before (even by me), but I could not find it
in the list archive at http://www.warpfish.com/jhan/ft/Archive/ (plug).
I am thinking of getting into Stargrunt. What would be a good force mix to
purchase (infantry (reg & PA), not vehicles) to get started?
I was thinking: 18 Rifle
3 SAW
3 Hvy Support Weapon (HSW) such as PPG or GMS/P
12 PA
This would give a mix of: 3 SAW supported Rifle Teams (3 Rifle, 1 SAW) 3 HSW
supported Rifle Teams (3 Rifle, 1 HSW) 3 PA Teams (4 PA)
> On 20 Mar 2001, at 13:18, Bell, Brian K (Contractor) wrote:
> I am thinking of getting into Stargrunt. What would be a good force
SG2 squads are normally 8 strong, whilst PA squads are normally 6 strong. So
the mix above gives 3 squads (6 rifle, SAW, HSW) of regular troops and 2
squads of PA. Most of the TOEs in the SG2 rulebook have platoons of 4 squads
of regulars and 1 of PA.
Squads of just 4 are a bit light on firepower if armed with normal
rifles, okay if armed with rifle/grenade launchers. But they lack the
ability to split of a useful detachment.
I'll leave it to others to argue whether the morale and confidence
rules favour 4 or 8 man squads. ;-)
I thought that it favored squads of 5. You would still need to kill 2 for a
25% confidence check and 3 for a 50% confidence check. And you can get 8
squads for the price of 5 8-man squads. (Squads of 3 were the worst;
every casualty forced a confidence check.) But I thought that was minmaxing a
bit.
:-)
> On Tue, 20 March 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> I am thinking of getting into Stargrunt. What would be a good force
I found for a good starting selection you wanted at least a platoon. I went
for three squads of 8 figures and a command squad of 4 as a
starting unit. Each squad had a SAW, a support weapon (GMS/P or plasma
gun), a leader, and 5 troopers. The command squad had a SAW, a commander, and
two others, but the SAW isn't really needed in the command group.
This produced a nice force of about 30 troops. Field one of these per side and
you could have a 3 to 4 hour long scenario. Of course, I also had APCs for
each squad.
For PA, I prefer not to have more than about one squad per platoon, and my PA
squads are usually smaller than a regular squad (say 6 figures).
> I was thinking:
Not bad, but you're probably missing a command squad. If you are picking up
the 15mm packs from Jon, I'd go for 4 infantry packs and one PA instead of
what looks like 3 infantry packs and 2 PA.
This is, of course, assuming you just want a starter set.
> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
Squads of 4 are a wee bit small. Wherein the standard dactrin goes for 8 man
squads of infantry and 6 man squads for PA, I run 7 man squads of infantry. I
run 1 SAW, 1 Plasma, 4 riflemen, and a squad leader (same equipment as a
rafleman).
For a platoon I run 3 regular squads and a command squad. The command squads
are identicle to the standard squad except 1 of the riflemen is equiped with
EW gear.
For rifles I go for the Advanced Assult Riffle with grenade launcher which is
a 3 for firepower per rifleman and standard SAW which is a D8 support. I've
thought of giving them a gatling SAW upping it to a D10
power. So each squad gets D12(rifles for 5 men)/D8(SAW)/D6(plasma) and
their quality die.
A squad of 4 men could max out their dies at D8(rifles)/D10(SAW) and
quality. In a lot of cases when you have decent cover you need a D12 just to
get a minor hit.
I've just about given up on using a heavy weapon in my squads. I find the roll
off when trying to hit a vehicle with them just isn't worth it. I'd rather
just equip the squad with a slew of IAVRs and support hem properly. The
hitting power of the plasma gun with it's support die while firing at
dispersed targets is more worthhile. Though that's just my opinion.
If you're buying 15mm I'd just get 4 packs of infantry and 2 of PA if you're
just starting out and don't want to shell out a lot of chash.
If you're going 25mm I'd get 4 squads of 7 or 8.
> PS. Some may have noticed that this mix fits with the forces reported
Sure it should. It's all about getting SG in 15mm:)
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> On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Jaime Tiampo wrote:
> For a platoon I run 3 regular squads and a command squad. The command
I was wondering about this. Should one use these specialists as individuals or
as members of the command squad? In the latter case having EW active will eat
up half the command squad's activations?
> I've just about given up on using a heavy weapon in my squads. I find
Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering how to use this? Do you
have, for a squad of 8, an effective 8 shot IAVR, which doesn't 'die' until
the last figure?
Oh, by the way. I go for 8 figure squads for my royal marines (5 riflemen
with AR+GL, 1 leader (same), one SAW and either plasma gun or guided
missile. I think I'll go for plasma guns with all my further squads.
My command squad has no missile capability, but does have sniper, EW and
forward observer.
The pathfinders (fully enclosed armour for orbital insertion) have 4
riflemen and leader (as above), gauss MG, and guided missile/1. Although
I'd happily go for a high power IAVR instead (similar to Carl Gustav), as that
seems to suit the model better.
I think below 7 figures, you'll find yourself seriously lacking firepower,
especially after the first casualty.
Also, is there anything to stop me from putting more SAW's in my squad, thus
getting more dice? I'm not planning to, but I'm curious what the thought on
this is. (I'd say 'munchkin';))
Cheers,
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> For rifles I go for the Advanced Assult Riffle with grenade launcher
[Bri] 3 soldiers with AAR/GL woud get a d10 (3*3 = 9 round UP). Plus the
support weapon. 6 soldiers with the same equipment would only get 1 die
shift up. I have not played enough to know if 1 unit (d12/d8/d6) is
better
than 2 units (d10/d8 and d10/d6) or not.
[snip]
> If you're buying 15mm I'd just get 4 packs of infantry and 2 of PA if
[snip]
> Jaime
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com> wrote:
> Squads of 4 are a wee bit small. Wherein the
For line infantry, I run 8-man squads (for historical
reasons) with 2 SAWs and 6 ARs. NCOs are marked with little dots on the bottom
of their base so that there is no way to specifically target them.
I also have the figures to do a scout platoon, which
is six four-man teams all armed with rifles and a
minimum of body armor.
> For a platoon I run 3 regular squads and a command
Now, an HQ squad for me actually breaks down into several independant teams.
You have a PL, PSG, EW Tech, and Medic. All of which I tend to use as
independant figures and/or attach to a line squad.
Plus a HW team and an Anti-armor team. Until someone
comes out with GMS teams or crew-served MG teams, I'm
making do with a pair of SAW gunners and a pair of
GMS/P gunners.
> For rifles I go for the Advanced Assult Riffle with
Gauss with GL for me--at for regulars.
> I'd rather just equip the squad with a slew of IAVRs
I go with a minimum of 2 buzz-bombs per squad.
> On 21-Mar-01 at 03:22, Derk Groeneveld (derk@cistron.nl) wrote:
> I think below 7 figures, you'll find yourself seriously lacking
Are you sure you wouldn't make up for this with more activations?
IE, You have 32 figures on the table, 4 squads in 1 platoon. You get 8
actions. I have 32 figures on the table, 8 squads in 2 (or even 1) platoon. I
get to do 16 actions and the need to split will occur much less often. If user
fp 3 weapons I have that d12. I take a casualty and I still have a d12.
Probably old ground, I am reading through 7K back mails from the list even as
you read this.
> On 21-Mar-01 at 09:05, Roger Books (books@mail.state.fl.us) wrote:
^^^
oops, d10.
> Probably old ground, I am reading through 7K back mails from the
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> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Roger Books wrote:
> On 21-Mar-01 at 03:22, Derk Groeneveld (derk@cistron.nl) wrote:
Yes, but I get to call you a munchkin;) Also, you apparantly have no support
weapons?
Cheers,
> On 21-Mar-01 at 09:24, Derk Groeneveld (derk@cistron.nl) wrote:
Only if I get to call you a munchkin for your 8 man "I don't have to worry
about someone dieing, I still get that d12 that hits anything" squads.:) It
all depends on how you look at the world, if you see the trend of shrinking
squad size continueing 4 men is about as as small as it can go.
As for support weapons, currently the game I am running is SW, and they didn't
have much in the way of support. Just FYI, stormtroopers come in 8 man squads,
the rebels count on individual initiative so they come in 4 man squads.
Anyway, I like the IAVR setup I have seen discussed.
> At 13:51 2001-03-21, you wrote:
The two units will produce more suppresion markers, but will be hard pressed
to get any effective fire, while the unit with more dice will cause many more
casualties, since; a) it has a much better chance of rolling two dice higher
than the range die, and b) the total of ALL their dice are added together to
be divided by the maximum on the range die.
So it depends on what you want to do. If you want to suppress the enemy, go
for two units (they can produce twice as many suppression markers per
activation. If you want to disable the enemy, go for the big one.
But remember, if your small unit gets one man out, it's down to d6/d6!
It might make it's confidence tests, but it is not very effective any longer.
Personally I generally aim for the d12 FP (6-man squad, four or five
with
AAR/GL, one SAW and perhaps one additional support weapon or GMS/p).
---
> On Wed, 21 March 2001, Derk Groeneveld wrote:
> I was wondering about this. Should one use these specialists as
Yes, it does eat up the activations. So, putting them as a separate squad
results in more flexibility.
If your group allows free form force creation (that is, you can choose your
own organization) then there's no real reason to put them in the command
squad. If you create scenarios, this can be an interesting tactical problem to
throw at a player.
> Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering how to use this? Do
That's a good question. The distribution of IAVRs in a squad isn't covered. It
seems odd that, as strictly written, it is implied that a trooper with a SAW
getting killed means the squad loses the SAW, but that miraculously all the
IAVRs in a squad are carried by the last guy.
One way to do this is not to worry about it! That's usually what I do. I
assume that within a game turn, a soldier can be easily stripped of his IAVR.
It makes things simple.
This leads to the question of letting one figure pick up the weapon of a
downed comrade. I have house rules on my web site to handle that.
Another is to give each figure an IAVR (or find some other way of distributing
them) and if the figure is a casualty, you lose the IAVR. But, then you need
to use missile figures to indicate the figure that fired the IAVR.
> I think below 7 figures, you'll find yourself seriously lacking
Although there is a question of 2 small 4-man teams having twice the
activations as 1 8-man team. And 1 suppression marker eats up an action
for all 8 figures, while if you had a smaller squad it takes two actions. I
think you'd find that smaller squads will result in more suppression results,
and are more effective.
I haven't heard a reply from Jon as to my asking how he envisioned SG2 being
played. I wonder if fireteams should be modelled as small squads, or if a
squad is considered to have fireteams but just isn't modelled as such.
> Also, is there anything to stop me from putting more SAW's in my
Two SAWs per squad is actually necessary to model some historic squad
formations. I wouldn't have a problem with 2 SAWs per squad. More than that
and you are getting into munchkin territory.
Having said that, there's a scenario on my site, "Plasma Ambush" that has one
side consisting of 4 power armour guys carrying nothing but plasma guns. They
were nasty against the APCs in the scenario, but were not overpowering against
infantry. Plasma guns have a D6 firepower, so they were rolling Quality die
plus 4D6. That sounds nasty, and it was if they hit, but at any kind of range
or in cover they had trouble doing damage. They didn't come over as unbalanced
at all.
So, while outfitting all your squads with D10 firepower SAWs is definitely
munchkinism, you might find other support weapons to result in interesting
situations. For that matter, it's not munchkinism if you give one guy a squad
of 8 SAWs but that's his only squad against overwhelming odds. The scenario
set up can fix any kind of "munchkinism".
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
> I was wondering about this. Should one use these
What I tend to do is run the command squad as individual figures. I also use
the optional rules to allow the PSG and PL to each use one action to activate
a squad. This way I don't have the PL parking in one spot and blowing all his
actions reactivating line squads. Doesn't fit they way I've seen most PLs
operate.
> Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering
The honest way to do it is for each buzz-bomb-carrying
trooper, leave a missle counter with him. When the squad shoots, decide who's
actually launching a rocket. Then if someone's killed carrying a
buzz-bomb, the squad looses that shot.
> My command squad has no missile capability, but does
I tend to attach FOs and snipers from higher echelons (administratively, I
follow the US pattern of having the sniper teams no lower than BN level and
the FOs being part of the artillery batallion attached to the maneuver
elements).
> Also, is there anything to stop me from putting more
It fits most modern organizational patterns. I do it. Let someone holler
munchkin. Us 'Mericans have been doing it since WWII. Especially with adoption
of Minimi as our Automatic Rifle.
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> On 21 Mar 2001 agoodall@canada.com wrote:
> On Wed, 21 March 2001, Derk Groeneveld wrote:
> Yes, it does eat up the activations. So, putting them as a separate
Seperate squad or individual figure? (a la sniper and such)
> If your group allows free form force creation (that is, you can choose
Except that it makes sense for them to be there;) And yeah, we do pretty
much free-form. But if things get out of hand I'm sure people will
pounce on me;)
And as for the scenario, yes it makes for interesting dillemma's.
> > Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering how to use this?
Do you
> > have, for a squad of 8, an effective 8 shot IAVR, which doesn't
It seemed odd to me as well, but I couldn't think of another useful
alternative. In my pathfinder squad there's only one guy with a tube, then
this is much easier.
As for the SAW gunner etc, I rather like the cross-training rules on the
stargrunt website.
> One way to do this is not to worry about it! That's usually what I do.
I
> assume that within a game turn, a soldier can be easily stripped of
Makes sense...
> This leads to the question of letting one figure pick up the weapon of
I think those are the ones I ran across. The ones where quality determines
the amount of cross-training?
> Another is to give each figure an IAVR (or find some other way of
All ghurka figures have IAVRs, hence my question. Otherwise it would be the
same as all other support weapons. I really think there's too many counters on
the table already. Do we really want more?
> > I think below 7 figures, you'll find yourself seriously lacking
True... However, with two SAWs _and_ cross-training, you get rather
endless firepower?
> Having said that, there's a scenario on my site, "Plasma Ambush" that
Mmmm. Interesting:) We haven't really used power armour, yet, over here. I'm
still looking for nice figs, myself.
> So, while outfitting all your squads with D10 firepower SAWs is
Well, I have no problem with two support weapons. I rather like SAW and
plasmagun combination myself. It's just that when you got two SAWs, AND a
plasmagun in every squad, I think I'll have all my opponents turn pale when I
start rounding up dice;)
Cheers,
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> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, John Atkinson wrote:
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
Umm. Which optional rules exactly? And I'm guessing PSG = platoon sergeant,
and PL = platoon lieutenant? Anyway, what you describe makes sense.
> > Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering
This absolutely makes sense, but I'd MUCh rather see less counters on the
table. Then again, one could tick this off on a unit sheet, assuming the
figures are numbered.
> > My command squad has no missile capability, but does
Mmm. Again, makes sense. I'll have to think on this:)
> > Also, is there anything to stop me from putting more
True.
Just thinking about the number of minimi's, I recall the bravo-two-zero
distribution. 8 men, 4 M16/203, 4 Minimi. It's a thought for how to run
special forces type operations.
Then again, with special forces, you could make a case for running them as 8
individuals.
Cheers,
> Derk Groeneveld wrote:
> I was wondering about this. Should one use these specialists as
EW doesn't use up actions.
> Since the gurkha's all carry IAVR, I was wondering how to use this? Do
Well what we do is use a die to represent how many IAVRs the squad has. We
allow the squad to shoot as many IAVRs at a time as they wish. Machanics for
die rolling is a quality die for the squad and each IAVR gets a die. You take
each IAVR as an individual shot and match it with the quality die to figure
hits.
> I think below 7 figures, you'll find yourself seriously lacking
My squads can take 2 casualties before they drop a die level.
> Also, is there anything to stop me from putting more SAW's in my
Nothing stops you though your opponents might linch you. I see no reason for
"special" squads to have more then 1 or 2 SAWs in them but not regular line
infantry. Even though they can do it today, no one equips their infantry that
way.
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> On Wed, 21 Mar 2001, Jaime Tiampo wrote:
> Derk Groeneveld wrote:
Mmm. I ran across a comment on this, somewhere on the net. I can't find it
again, however. is the author of said comment on this list, perchance?
The general drift was that the line "During it's activation, an EW unit may
elect to have it's equipment either ACTIVE or INACTIVE; if it's systems are
'active' then the unit gets three EW markets placed by it in a stack." etc.
Since there seems to be no penalty to having your EW active at all times (?),
the suggestion was made to make choosing 'active EW' an action.
Is this what is commonly played? Or not? Are there any disadvantages to having
EW active?
> Well what we do is use a die to represent how many IAVRs the squad
Eeek! All in one action? this sounds truly devastating?
Cheers,
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
> Umm. Which optional rules exactly? And I'm guessing
PL is Platoon Leader (we don't have commanders until the company level). I saw
them on a web page a couple years ago and liked them so much I've been using
them
ever since. It's pretty simple--if you're running an
army that has a tradition of high-quality long-service
NCOs (US, UK, Germans, FFL) then you can opt to allow the PL to only use 1
action to reactivate a unit, and the PSG can use 1 action to do this as well.
First yutz to try to sell me on the ESU doing that is gonna get shot, though.
> This absolutely makes sense, but I'd MUCh rather see
That's a better way. My pet peeve is keeping records. Yours is counters on the
table. It's the same technique spun for different pet peeves.
> Mmm. Again, makes sense. I'll have to think on this
FISTs (US Army FOs--stands for FIre Support Team) are
four-man elements with a modified M-113. There's an
officer, an NCO, and 2 EMs. The officer works at the company TOC or moves in
the company commander's track, coordinating fire support. The NCO and 2 EMs
drive around in the track, or dismount to actually spot for the fire (a
dismounted team would be an NCO and an EM, since someone has to stay with the
track). They
belong to the Headquarters/Headquarters Battery of the
Field Artillery Batallion that supports that brigade. That way they can train
in FIST stuff together, then get chopped out whenever their maneuver unit goes
out for training or on a deployment. (Why yes, I did hang
out with a lot of FISTers--pretty nice guys and the
only non-Engineers I could respect on the entire
depot).
Sniper teams are found in batallion Scout Platoons, Brigade Reconaissance
Troops, and divisional Long Range Surveillance Detachments. They are far more
useful going out and scouting than hanging around with line troops.
What the Russians try to do is have a sniper per platoon. But since they can't
possibly get everyone to proper training, it's just another draftee who has a
scoped sniper rifle. Hopefully he can actually shoot.
> Then again, with special forces, you could make a
Depends on the situation and the type of special forces. A commando is just a
very high quality light
infantry unit. SAS-style or USSF-style units should
be able to combine or detach elements at will to represent flexibility.
Sometimes you'll want them each doing something seperate and crazy, other
times they'll all be pouring fire into the onrushing hordes of highly upset
fileclerks or whoever they ran into that gave them too much fight (I heard
about a Team Spirit once where US Rangers attacked the dining facility run by
2nd ID's Divisional HHC, having recieved faulty information about the location
of the divisional CP. The Rangers lost.)
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> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, John Atkinson wrote:
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
Nice ideas:) Ever considered putting them up for the stargrunt.com site?
> > This absolutely makes sense, but I'd MUCh rather see
Well, I don't much like keeping record, either.... Could use a tray with the
counters in the tray or something like that:)
> > Mmm. Again, makes sense. I'll have to think on this
*grin* I deal a lot more with navy folks than army folks, so I wouldn't
know. And that'd be a well-trained navy, for the most of it (dutch)
> Sniper teams are found in batallion Scout Platoons,
Of course. I mean, those line troops are just noisy useless louts that'd just
give them away, anyway;)
Also, as you know from all SF movies, line troops walk along ridgelines and
such, nicely silhouetting (SP?) themselves.
> What the Russians try to do is have a sniper per
Or the french, who have a long rifle not so much as _sniper_, but more
as a long range rifleman.
> > Then again, with special forces, you could make a
LOL. Love the anecdote. What HHC, though?
Cheers,
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
> Nice ideas :) Ever considered putting them up for
I could swear I saw it somewhere else (anyone wanna claim it? It may have been
a post on the list) but since it doesn't seem to be up there I'll clean up the
idea and mail off to the site guy.
> *grin* I deal a lot more with navy folks than army
Isn't that the outfit that unionized it's military once?
> Of course. I mean, those line troops are just noisy
No--it's just that your snipers are more used for
calling for fire. By the time you've got line troops up they can call for
fire.
> Also, as you know from all SF movies, line troops
Speaking as a line doggie myself...
> > divisional CP. The Rangers lost.)
2nd Infantry Division D-Main.
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> On Thu, 22 Mar 2001, John Atkinson wrote:
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
Good!
> > *grin* I deal a lot more with navy folks than army
Ooopsie! And now they get to deal with allm sorts of union crap, seriously
reducing the max sailing time in peacetime etc;) Then again, the serious lack
of available labour already is forcing them to become increasingly
family-friendly etc.
> > Of course. I mean, those line troops are just noisy
You're saying snipers are most used for spotting artillery? Isn't that usually
called a forward observer?
> > Also, as you know from all SF movies, line troops
But I bet you've never made it into an SF movie?
> > > divisional CP. The Rangers lost.)
Errr. I meant, what does the abbreviation HHC stand for?
Cheers,
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
> > No--it's just that your snipers are more used for
Snipers have radios. They also have training in getting into places the enemy
does not want them to be
be, and doing so unobserved. Think about it--let's
say your sniper can see the enemy brigade headquarters. Is he going to do more
damage shooting the brigadier in the head, or calling for artillery to blow
the whole mess up and kill everyone? There's a
reason the Marines call their guys "Scout-snipers."
> Errr. I meant, what does the abbreviation HHC stand
Headquarters and Headquarters Company.
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> On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, John Atkinson wrote:
> --- Derk Groeneveld <derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
Ahh, alright. It's the sort of job that would be done by the Commando's (who
are mainly econ, in the Netherlands), over here.
Cheers,
On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 10:59:42 +0100 (CET), Derk Groeneveld
<derk@cistron.nl> wrote:
> EW doesn't use up actions.
This was hashed out on the list back at the end of August, 2000. Technically
speaking there is nothing to suggest that it costs an action to turn on EW
units. However, there is also no reason in the rules to turn OFF the EW units,
yet the rules state that they are turned on and off. So, if it doesn't cost an
action to turn the EW units on, why would you NOT turn them on?
Here are the conclusions that came out of it. Note that these are essentially
house rules, but logical extensions. This is definitely an area that needs
cleaned up in "Bugs Don't Surf". The conclusions:
:We had a discussion about this earlier in the year. The rules don't:actually
give a reason for turning off the EW. The way it is written, it:seems to be on
all the time.
:
:After our discussion here on the list, this is what we came up with:
:
: - You switch on the EW set with an action. This gives you 3 EW
counters.
: - It does not cost an action to use the EW counters.
: - The next time the EW unit is activated, the EW counters are removed
and:the EW is turned off. To turn it on again requires that the EW unit spends
:an action.
I will add that it only costs one action to turn on the EW unit, and that the
EW unit is available to do other actions. There was a question as to whether
or not the EW unit should be allowed to turn on the EW set if suppressed. I
don't know if this was ever resolved, but I have been playing it that the unit
can NOT activate the EW counters if suppressed.