G'day guys,
Sorry this is all mushed together but for some reason my server is giving me
two copies of some emails and no copies over others, mostly JohnA's (maybe my
server doesn't like yahoo?). I got suspicious when replies were turning up to
mails I hadn't seen so checked the majordomo archive. <John if you've answered
my books question you could you please resend that too or send it to
derekfulton@bigpond.com with ATTENTION: BETH or something on it thanks>
> From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@yahoo.com>
<My sad PA detachment idea>
> It's not a real good idea to create these sort of ad
OK, you may win me round... eventually;)
> (would you like to carry a couple hundred
I was teasing, but in the far future wouldn't it be possible that mines will
get small and light weight? <OK maybe not 5c piece small...>
> I tried to find a picture of 'em, but the demolitions
Thanks anyway.
> Probably. Pick a troop with a full rucksack and hang
Sounds good to me... assuming my mother agrees that a Platoon makes a grand
grad present;)
Now on to Adrian...
> Beth - as John said, you have a huge platoon. It often helps
Now I have to go learn more fancy names?;P;)
Seriously, I hadn't thought much beyond platoon as we won't be playing larger
games. Overall though I guess I saw this as a more decentralised force (OK I
know that is going to go against the grain based on many existing militaries I
guess). Each "region" of the "nation" provides a platoon which has its bit to
cover normally (and so needs a bit of everything) and get grouped as needed
when push comes to shove.
> So, having a squad of them in EVERY infantry platoon is a huge
True enough, but I was coming from the thought that it was a reflection of the
skills the population so if they were there use them, they can always use a
gun if they're not needed as pioneers.
> and it would be difficult (from a command-and-control)
That's part of the reason each squad got a comms guy.
> This means you have a platoon that is roughly 50% larger than
As I said above only if you organise under existing military structure, I see
my structure as being much flatter (and smaller) then you guys (and
today's miltaries) use. OK 2000+ yrs of fighting means the military
knows
what its doing (probably), but it kinda fits that a nation set-up by
scientists and historians are going to experiment - and get their butt
kicked probably;)
> Your formation isn't big enough or different enough
Fair point. I had originally thought about more rifle squads, but that's when
real life budget concerns kicked in;)
> Having a company-equivalent force of pioneers is interesting for a
The planets my scenarios are set on are high on walled cities, aquaducts etc.
> I'm not suggesting that you give up your orgainization at
There's always a but;)
> ...and at the same time have a force that reasonably
Do you mean mechanics wise or in traditional view of the military wise?
> Anyway, I hope this gives you something to think about!
Thanks very much for your help.
> Sorry this is all mushed together but for some reason my server is
Not just you. I got Roger's reply to you several hours ago, just got yours,
and haven't yet gotten John's or Adrian's message that you're replying to.
> > when putting together a platoon TO&E (for Stargrunt) to
"If you're going to design a Lab, it helps to know how it fits in with
the Department and College." :-)
> existing militaries I guess). Each "region" of the "nation" provides
A platoon is only about 35 guys, normally. Yours are a bit larger, of course,
but a platoon isn't big enough, or diverse enough, to be able to fight
independently. You don't have to put a company on the table but you should at
least know what it has. Think of your higher echelons as being a source of
"guest stars" for
the battle. You don't want a sniper/tank/VTOL/PA unit in *every* game
but you can say "battalion assigned me a sniper element" when you want one.
> > So, having a squad of them in EVERY infantry platoon is a huge
Your population gets a lot of practice breaching minefields in everyday life?
> Fair point. I had originally thought about more rifle squads, but
G'day,
> "If you're going to design a Lab, it helps to know how it fits in with
Given the current round of restructuring around here I'd rather not think
about it;)
> A platoon is only about 35 guys, normally. Yours are a bit larger,
I do understand what you're talking about, but in this case its probably not a
lot more than the sum of the platoons. Think of it more like the organisation
of a small countries' (e.g. Nauru) police force (though they're not actually
the police) rather than a traditionally structured military.
> Think of your higher echelons as being a source of "guest stars" for
The upper echelons would supply water transport, air support, heavy artillery,
may be some "best of the best" troops and big league stuff like that
basically.
> Your population gets a lot of practice breaching minefields in
Those kind of tasks or one similar in scientific/mining etc rolls, yes.
> I'm sorry, did someone say "6mm"?
Unfortunately I have to conform with the scale my opponents have chosen.
Cheers
Hi Beth,
> Sorry this is all mushed together but for some reason my server is
I wonder if the server treats stuff sent as a "REPLY" to the digest version
differently than it treats stuff sent as a "REPLY" to an individual
message...?
> <My sad PA detachment idea>
not really "sad" per se...
just a wee bit feeble, maybe;P
> Now on to Adrian...
Oh dear:)
How about
"It often helps when putting together a platoon *organizational chart and
listing of all their stuff* to have an idea of how that platoon fits into a
*bigger group of several platoons* and *bigger bigger group of several of
those previously-mentioned bigger groups*."
;P
> Seriously, I hadn't thought much beyond platoon as we won't be playing
It isn't so much that it goes against the grain, but that from the perspective
of "conservation of expenses", it would cost a TON to organize and equip a
large force that way.
There are *no* current militaries that have the platoon as their primary unit
size (from a strategic point of view). The American army sees itself as
Divisions and Brigades. The Australian army (according to their website, the
last time I looked) is reorganizing itself around independent brigade
formations. The Canadian army is just pretty generally hopeless, but nominally
tries to organize around Brigades, etc. This is why you almost never see any
country sending forces smaller than a battalion on UN peacekeeping ops, except
for specialized units like chem warfare or
mine-removal detachments (or hospitals, or etc.) It just isn't worth
the effort to deploy just a platoon into a bigger operation. Well, there are
POLITICAL reasons why a country might try to do this, but it doesn't make
un-political sense :)
It isn't cost effective, even if your military is really small, to organize
around a unit that tiny. Unless of course you're talking about a very
specialist unit - special operations troops maybe.
Having said all that, there are lots of different ways you could
rationalize/justify having that sort of organization.
The easiest one is to say something like "well, yes... administratively we
have normal looking TO&E's out to Battalion and Brigade level... BUT... in
this part of space, we have special needs and the general staff has decided
that platoons sent on independent operations will have certain supporting
assets..." etc etc and that way your platoon just happens to be one of those
with "temporarily attached" supporting assets. It just has them all the
time...
> So, having a squad of them in EVERY infantry platoon is a huge
Very true.
Another way of "rationalizing" this is to say that your platoons are organized
and trained so that each squad has a "secondary specialty", such as assault
pioneering, using mortars, etc. You actually have a platoon with four or five
normal, standard infantry squads, but each one has a specialty. For scenarios
that require assault pioneers, the officer has figured out that the mission
will need that skill set, so has told the squad leader to go get the pioneer
gear out of the transports. For missions that require indirect fire support,
the officer says "go get the light mortars", and so on.
Maybe one of the squads has "public relations", another has "cooking" and the
final one has "scrounging" as their specialties...:)
(or you could pick more "realistic" stuff like "rapelling" or "small boat
operations" or "anti-armour" or whatever...)
Otherwise, the extra gear is just left behind and the squad fights as regular
infantry, and you don't bother deploying the mortar models (or whatever) onto
the table.
> and it would be difficult (from a command-and-control)
ok, but what I really meant by that was that it would be quite difficult for a
higher level headquarters (say, at the battalion level) to coordinate
effective mass mortar fire if each pair of mortars is running about with a
rifle platoon. The fire control officer needs to know where they are so he can
plot fires, and needs to know how many he has available. These would both be
constantly changing as the infantry move about the battlefield. Even if each
squad has a comm tech with radio gear that has range to the Battalion HQ, it
would take one heck of an efficient Battalion HQ staff, even with good
computer support, to coordinate all those separate
mortars... Remember, you had something like 32+ mortars in your
organization, if you extend it out as big as a battalion.
On the other hand, if your platoons ONLY EVER fight independently (though this
seems rather unlikely), the whole point is moot:)
> As I said above only if you organise under existing military structure,
Heh:)
There is nothing written in stone and handed down from on-high that says
"thou shalt organize by squad, platoon, company, battalion and brigade, or
thou shalt lose most verily..."
But a ton of different studies have shown that human battlefield commanders
can effectively command a certain max. limit of units. Beyond that, efficiency
drops off. There's a reason that just about all militaries in the world today
are organized along these lines... I'm sure the limits will increase with the
advent of smart computing and expert systems and other
gee-whiz fancy tech. But the human limitations won't have changed
*that* much in a couple of hundred years, I would imagine.
Well, maybe I'm completely wrong, but we *know* that the major forces in
the GZG-verse organize themselves in ways that are very similar and
recognizable to the current day, so maybe those human limits are still around.
Again though, having said that, I'm sure there are plenty of good, sound,
clever justifications for tossing all that out the window.
The first and best, of course, being "Because I want to do it that
way"...
:)
> Fair point. I had originally thought about more rifle squads, but
the dreaded $$ limit.
hate that.
"Yes, I want a COMPANY of all my different forces, in 25mm! And I'm going to
collect them ALL. Ha ha!"
Ha ha is right...
> Having a company-equivalent force of pioneers is interesting for a
lots and lots of demolition charges...
maybe ALL your troops are well trained in how to use breaching explosives, so
you can issue demo charges to everyone?
> I'm not suggesting that you give up your orgainization at
hate that, eh?!
> ...and at the same time have a force that reasonably
well, part of it is "traditional view" wise...
but in Dirtside, if you create a company or battalion size force around your
platoons, you'll have the whole "32 mortars" business I mentioned before...
that isn't a BAD thing for one-off games, for sure.
I guess it really depends on how much one-off gaming you intend, and how
much campaign style play.
If you play a campaign and track resources, having a very support-heavy
force will require more logistic investment. If you're playing one-off
games, that what the heck - all those other considerations can quite
comfortably get tossed out the window...
But it's all in good fun in the end, so it really doesn't matter as long as
you and your oppenents enjoy themselves, right?! Some of us get more caught up
in the "is it realistic" business than is entirely necessary
:)
> Your population gets a lot of practice breaching minefields in
Think of a place like Afghanistan or Mocambique after decades of civil
war and generous mine-laying and you see it could happen.
In Hamburg, every few months a dud bomb from WWII is found and defused
- more than half a century after the last one fell.
Greetings
From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de
> Your population gets a lot of practice breaching minefields in
> Think of a place like Afghanistan or Mocambique after decades of civil
Doing it under fire might be a little different, but okay. I'd gotten the
impression that this was a frontier planet, recently settled by
scientists and historians--I hadn't expected there'd be civil war and
minefields, but now that I think of the infighting between some of the
professors I used to study with...
G'day,
> Doing it under fire might be a little different, but okay.
Rough, frontier yes, recent no. Basically its a bit of a spin-off from
the GZGverse in that there was an FTL accident with one of the first colony
fleets and it ended up back in time and a long way away - off the edge
of
Nyrath's map - with different bits arriving at different times at
different spots (over a few neighbouring systems). In the intervening
centuries between their loss and they're recent encounter with 2180 humanity
much has changed, wars have happened, societies have formed and tech has
progressed similarly in some areas and quite differently in others (both
within their own member worlds and compared to stock standard GZGverse).
> --I hadn't expected there'd be civil war and minefields,
Got that damn right;)
Cheers
G'day,
> ><My sad PA detachment idea>
You know you're forcing me to increase my platoon size even further by having
a dedicated squad of PA don't you?;P;);)
> Now I have to go learn more fancy names? ;P ;)
While I was joking it was scary how close your explanation matched my thought
processes;)
> It isn't cost effective, even if your military is really
Guess I was being fairly heavily influenced by conversations with South
Pacific Islanders and my own experiences in local bush fire brigades (which
despite the name are platoon sized really).
> The easiest one is to say something like "well, yes...
Given the inertia in the naming of the organistaion of science bodies vs
reality this is entirely plausible!;)
> Another way of "rationalizing" this is to say that your platoons are
That's what I was thinking.
> Maybe one of the squads has "public relations", another has
:)
> (or you could pick more "realistic" stuff like "rapelling" or
The later set sounds fancier/more sensible, though the former could be
more useful;)
> Otherwise, the extra gear is just left behind and the squad fights as
Yep! ;)
> ok, but what I really meant by that was that it would be
OK.
> The fire control officer needs to know where
OK my stuff aside, is jamming etc going to stop future tech militaries from
using GPS etc to handle this? I had got the impression (probably incorrectly)
that advances in info to the soldier was getting to the point that it was a
matter of too much not immediate info too little.
> There is nothing written in stone and handed down from
... yet ;)
> The first and best, of course, being "Because I want to do it
You've been discussing my thought processes with Derek haven't you.... or have
I been here so long you guys can read me like a book already?;)
> the dreaded $$ limit.
Definitely. This opportunity has only come up because my parents feel proud of
the first Dr in the family and wish to congratulate me in a suitable
way... I'm working them round to seeing lead/pewter as one of the trully
precious metals;)
> lots and lots of demolition charges...
I was thinking most would be knowledgeable with regard to bangalore torpedos,
but that may well be the case any way (in real militaries) I don't know.
Thanks
Good luck with that!
And congratulations, I don't recall the doctorate having been mentioned
before.
Speaking of underseas science, I just finished Sheffield's "Cold as Ice"
whioch involves a researcher pulled from studying undersea vents to go look at
some on Europa. Five stars.
> Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> Definitely. This opportunity has only come up because my parents feel
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
Nichts nien. Civvies stay the hell away from
mines--they aren't stupid.
Hell, even engineers are far more likely to blow in place than lift.
> In Hamburg, every few months a dud bomb from WWII is
Defused by professional explosive ordnance disposal technicians, yes?
"You're the new guy right? Okay, forget what they taught you in school about
clearing mine... This is how we really do it."
*sticks his fingers in his ears and then shuffles forward, stomping down with
one foot in an arc in front of him, the stepping forward with the other and
stomping out another arc*
"So when we head out there, we'll give you an opportunity to put that
technique into action, alrighty?"
I imagine that would weed out those too stupid to be worth working
side-by-side on explosives with, wouldn't it?
--Flak Magnet
> On Wed, 2002-06-19 at 14:48, K.H.Ranitzsch wrote:
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> Certainly.
Well, the US has a lot of bomb techs in police departments, but they are more
trained to deal with IEDs (Improvised Explosive Devices, ie mail bombs, pipe
bombs, etc). Military ordnance is (surprisingly) the province of Army EOD
units. I'm told that every now and them some WWII veteran dies and his wife
ends up calling the police, who call the Army to deal with a collection of
stuff the dear departed collected, say, in 1945 in Germany.
> When I went to school in the early 1960's, we were
Which is absolutely right.
Growing up on military posts I remember a few of those presentations about not
picking up duds.
> Maybe I exaggerated my original statement about
Hopefully. It depends. If you've got a country that's being rebuilt by it's
occupying powers as a futue bulwark against the Godless Communists, then
obviously demining and dud clearance will get a lot of resources to set up the
training programs and so forth. If you've got some dustball that no one really
cares about, you've got to wait for the UN or some
humanitarian NGO to get the program in place--which
usually requires a ceasefire or something. These things don't just 'happen',
they have to be started with a cadre of trained experts. Trial and error works
for some things, but not demining.
On the other hand, Afghanis and Viets both became moderately proficient in
lifting mines and moving them to places where their original users did not
intend.
Of course, this was really rough on the no-gos.
> BTW, from some of the documentaries I have seen on
Yup. I've heard some stories about factions in Bosnia demining that make my
skin crawl.
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> archive. <John if you've
I need to sit down with my library and dig through it a bit.
> <My sad PA detachment idea>
Not sad.
Think of it this way: Sports teams. If your team doesn't practice together on
a regular basis, then even if they are really hot players, they can be beaten
by scrubs who are half as good, but practice together every day for a year.
> OK, you may win me round... eventually ;)
Try it your way, try it my way (Experimental Force undergoing field trials),
and then either your army adopts the experimental organization, or you ditch
it and stick with the old way. Whichever works for you.
> > 5c piece? Not likely. . .
Depends on what your assumptions are regarding battery miniaturization,
relative effectiveness of explosives,
and antennas for whatever ninja-electronic sensors
they have to make them go boom.
> Seriously, I hadn't thought much beyond platoon as
Not necessarily. A lot of Central American divide their countries into
'regions' or 'districts' and assign a brigade or batallion to cover that
district. Plus there's a central reserve force, frequently an "airborne"
batallion and some armor.
> "nation" provides a
Well, a platoon is pretty small. It's got no sustainment. For instance, you've
got medics. Where do your casualties go from the medics? I'd go to the
batallion aid station, and from there to a field hospital. What happens when
weapons, electronics, or vehicles break and cannot be fixed by the platoon's
organic armorers/commo guys/mechanics (the first and
third of which you don't have, so you'd need to crosstrain infantrymen to do
those jobs)? In the US Army, they get turned in to the FSB, which is part of
the brigade structure.
Who brings these guys ammo/food/water/etc?? There's
got to be a logistical structure.
How do you handle counterbattery fire, long range reconaissance, antiaircraft
defense, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc?
Who commands these disparate platoons in battle? After all, fighting a company
as a company, or a batallion as a batallion is a learned skill. And if you
don't practice that skill then you don't have it when you need it.
> > So, having a squad of them in EVERY infantry
If your populace is that explosives-happy, more power
to 'em. That's not really _that_ strange.
After all, the Romans didn't have any infantrymen in the legions. They were
ALL combat engineers.:)
> That's part of the reason each squad got a comms
Yeah, but coordinating fires requires a structure to do so at higher levels.
Each US infantry company gets 4 guys, 3 to call for fire, and 1 officer to
coordinate it. Plus the batallion has a fire support cell commanded by a
captain with a least a couple more officers and a bunch more EMs to
coordinate.
> As I said above only if you organise under existing
Flatter, possible. But independant operations is nearly impossible with less
than a batallion, and then it will be a large batallion.
> The planets my scenarios are set on are high on
I've always wanted to try blowing my way into a walled city in an SF game...
> "K.H.Ranitzsch" wrote:
> But I guess that we have somewhat more of them than the average US
I guess we no longer have Ludo Toen on the list, as he's not piped up. I
gather that in his neck of the woods the farmers just toss all the unexploded
ordnance they plough up into a big pile by the road for the military to pick
up as they sweep past every so often.
...and they say Belgium is dull.
G'day,
> I need to sit down with my library and dig through it
Thanks.
> Try it your way, try it my way (Experimental Force
I like the sound of that.... though you'll be glad to note tat I spent
yesterday evening figuring out which figs I need and the PA were in their own
squad;)
> Well, a platoon is pretty small. It's got no
Do you mean they don't just miraculously heal themselves?... OK good point
;)
> What happens when weapons, electronics, or
I had missed the first in my list of "secondary skills" I've identified for
the squads, but I did have the mechanics.
> Who brings these guys ammo/food/water/etc?? There's
Yep, though I have a feeling it will be smaller than the logistical structure
of more conventional forces you guys have devised as there is much more self
sufficiency involved here (and smaller ammo sizes etc). Though I realise
(based on effects in ancient campaigns) that that may mean I could
pay heavily if an opponent opts for environmental/slash and burn
tactics.
> How do you handle counterbattery fire, long range
Aircraft may not be as much of an issue due to poor conditions, and drones do
the recce, but there would be a need for counterbattery (which I assumed my
higher up heavily artillery, if they were around this time in, would
do).
> Who commands these disparate platoons in battle?
The next guy up. Though (as I explained to Adrian off-list so
unfortunately you weren't privy) in the setting we'll be seeing far more of
the "you're it boys, take care of yourselves" kind of actions rather than
large bodies of troops, with associated coordination. Its a failing of mine I
know, but unfortunately I tend to get caught up in the units I game with and
the overarching description of their society, environment etc and sweep the
military structure details under the carpet.
> After all, the Romans didn't have any infantrymen in
And who better to inspire you hey?;)
> Yeah, but coordinating fires requires a structure to
As crazy as it sounds I saw less people involved and more automation... but
I'm probably putting too much trust in future computer use;)
> I've always wanted to try blowing my way into a walled
Hopefully we'll be seeing a bit of that;)
Thanks and have fun
> > Who brings these guys ammo/food/water/etc?? There's
Beth said:
> Yep, though I have a feeling it will be smaller than the logistical
Though I
> realise (based on effects in ancient campaigns) that that may mean I
I take it you don't mean that your units are more self
sufficient--that would imply a larger logistics capacity than a
conventional unit. I presume you mean that the locals are
self-sufficient and you'll get your food, water, fuel, machinegun
ammo, guided missiles and so forth from the farmers in the area? Even
so, you'll need to have your logistics team do the foraging--your
combat troops will be busy, and even if they weren't, foraging slows
G'day,
> foraging slows you down quite a lot.
That's what I meant about paying heavily (that and the starvation etc issues)
Cheers
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- Laserlight <laserlight@quixnet.net> wrote:
> self-sufficient and you'll get your food, water,
Ummmm...
Guided missles?
That's an awfully big varmit gun you're postulating..
. :)
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> I had missed the first in my list of "secondary
Also clerks, cooks, accountants, lawyers, police, priests...
> Yep, though I have a feeling it will be smaller than
OK, I'll buy 50 guys foraging for food. Probably not too hard if in an
agricultural area or one developed enough to have supermarkets.
Ammo, I'll buy that you could acquire rifle ammunition in small quantities
from sporting good stores (most of it will be useless as it will be the wrong
caliber) and farmer who do their own reloading. You will not find enough to
keep a platoon of riflemen in rounds for sustained operations.
Mortar ammo, linked machinegun ammo, and guided missles will be far more
difficult to come by.
Radio parts you'll find. But not the specific kinds
you need to fix microminiature frequency-hopping
helmet radios.
Spare parts, especially for power armor, will also pose a problem.
Unless you're defending a refinery there will also be a shortage of POL
products.
> As crazy as it sounds I saw less people involved and
Can your computer make judgement calls? There will be times when you'll have
to decide just how important are these targets anyway?
You've got 4 guns available. One recon team has reported that there's a
company of tanks parked in the open with hatches open, tankers lined up behind
a truck eating chow, ec. The other team is being overrun by a 2 platoons of
enemy militia. Who gets the guns?
> > I've always wanted to try blowing my way into a
Time-delay fuzes and direct fire howitzers will help
with making the initial breach...
G'day,
> OK, I'll buy 50 guys foraging for food...
Assuming they don't use the same caliber.
> Mortar ammo, linked machinegun ammo, and guided
Assuming they're not interchangeable warheads for the rifle ammo, and that you
can't carry a lot due to its size and that its not easily made on the way.
That's the beauty of scifi mine can be way more fanciful in some respects than
your vision of the universe and neither's wrong just depends on what you want
;) I do understand your points its just that my background works on different
premises (and I must apologise because I should have stated them up front).
> Radio parts you'll find. But not the specific kinds
Assuming they don't use the same parts. They mightn't today, but there's
nothing stopping them 180 years into the future (well 400 years in my time
line).
> Spare parts, especially for power armor, will also
That's why specific family lines are tasked with maintaining them in my
fictional setting.
> Unless you're defending a refinery there will also be
POL? I'm assuming this has to do with petrochemicals?
> Can your computer make judgement calls?
Could be. Model wise neural nets can do some cool stuff now let alone what
they could handle in that many generations down the track. I guess that may be
asking for trouble, but that depends on where the line falls in the whole
artificial intelligence debate.
> You've got 4 guns available. One recon team has
To be fair to your question in the settings you play in I'd probably guess
(and probably incorrectly) to help the platoon out. In the settings I'll be
using I'd make the same decision as the local fauna is gonna slow down those
tanks (attracted to vibrations unless going very slowly or very dispersed).
> Time-delay fuzes and direct fire howitzers will help
Yep;)
Have fun
> At 10:24 AM +1000 6/25/02, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Rifles aren't linked. MG rounds are linked. The links are used in large
quantities. one can reuse old links, but its far easier on the troops if they
don't have to link their own ammo. Having the gear to do it is another issue.
> > Radio parts you'll find. But not the specific kinds
> > Unless you're defending a refinery there will also be
Mil-speak. Petroleum, Oil, Lubricants.
Tanks use a boatload of the stuff. And not just fuel. My little tiny Ferret
needs more than 2 gallons of SAE 30 and has more oil reservoirs than you have
limbs that takes 90 wt gear oil. Probably close to 5 gallons of the stuff.
More if you try to keep them topped up over extended ops.
G'day,
> Rifles aren't linked. MG rounds are linked. The links are used in
Under the background we're using the troops do have the ability and equipment,
but by the same token in my force MGs don't use linked
ammo....
in fact they're bullets aren't bullets they're discs;)
Cheers
Triffids!
on 02.6.25 1:44 PM, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au at Beth.Fulton@csiro.au scribbleth:
> in fact they're bullets aren't bullets they're discs ;)
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
All civillian firearms use the same caliber as your military weapons?
Interesting. It's your
setting--although to be fair, I do also issue
standardized assault rifles to practically every adult in my Empire. Of
course, there are a wide variety of handguns, hunting rifles, etc. in
civillian usage, but the availability of 5mm caseless rifles does mean this
caliber is carried by most stores that carry any ammo.
Of course this doesn't do my regulars much good since they carry 4mm gauss
rifles and those are restricted availability.
> > Mortar ammo, linked machinegun ammo, and guided
Are you talking about mortars and missles?? Now, machinegun ammo will be
pretty much the same (IMU, as in Real Life, my SAWs fire the same ammo as my
rifles) but linking it is a sonofabitch.
> you can't carry a lot due to its size and that its
Oh, I would understand automated microfactories on every farmstead.
I would also expect that the first thing an invader would do would be to
confiscate 'em, move them to a central location, and control strictly what you
could and couldn't produce.
> Assuming they don't use the same parts. They
Uhhh, your civillians use frequency-hopping encrypted
radios?? Compatible with your military commo nets??
You just made my intel guy's day. They'll send a spy into the corner store,
buy one, break it down and analyze it, and all of a sudden I'm listening to
every
transmission you make. Wooo-hooo!
And since I send people to prison for misplacing COMSEC equipment, you AREN'T
listening to mine.
> > Spare parts, especially for power armor, will also
??? Please explain.
> > Unless you're defending a refinery there will also
Petroleum, Oils, and Lubricants.
Military equipment eats POL. I mean, I could roll my AVLB into a corner gas
station and put their 15W40
into my engine. The probem is one of scale--I've had
to, on one occasion, drop 10 gallons into my engine, plus more into the
transmission. Last time I lubed the track, I just did the roadwheels and the
tongue, and I still used 6 tubes of grease (yes, it had been a while since the
damn thing got lubed). Then there's those POL products that there is little
call for in
civillian life (90W oil for ACEs, FRH for M-113 ramp
hydraulics, etc, etc, etc). I might could find them somewhere in Kileen, but
I'd have to spend a lot of time looking.
> > Can your computer make judgement calls?
I'm personally pessimistic. AIs will be useful to handle some things, but not
everything.
> To be fair to your question in the settings you play
It may or may not be incorrect. I might be able to drop some HEF around the
recon platoon, relay the guns, and drop MAK onto the tanks.
The point is, which one will your computer choose?
> In the settings I'll be
You have critters that can kill a tank?
> At 9:55 AM -0700 6/25/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Likly Beth hasn't looked at any of the modern reloading manuals and the sheer
volume of calibers out there still being used. I'd also expect that the kind
of rounds that hunters and farmers would tend to have on hand would be much
more geared for taking down big nasty animals vs killing a Eurie trooper.
See March Up Country.
> Of course this doesn't do my regulars much good since
See March Up Country.
> I would also expect that the first thing an invader
All the more reason to stick with good old fashioned brass cases that you can
make with simple machine tools. At least as far as civilian populations go.
> Military equipment eats POL. I mean, I could roll my
I'd love to see that. Most gas station people go nuts about my little Ferret.
Tiny compared to your AVLB....
> into my engine. The probem is one of scale--I've had
Actually you'd be surprised at tractor supply stores. I've found everything I
need for my Ferret and Dingo in small town
hardware/automotive stores where as the local AutoZone guys didn't
have the required Shell Telus Hydraulic Fluid for the Daimler Fluid Coupling.
Still, it is a matter of adequate supplies. Get a brigade of armor foraging
for POL in a small town and you won't be finding 15 gallon
pails of 90W-EP gear oil anywhere.
> You have critters that can kill a tank?
They don't kill it, they probably gum up the tracks when they die trying to
climb up the blasted things. Imagine cleaning 500 porcupines out of your
AVLB's tracks, roadwheels, and mudguards....
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
I'd also expect that the kind of rounds that hunters and
> farmers would tend to have on hand would be
The hunting rounds would be more likely to kill/
mame a person than military rounds.
Bye for now,
> At 10:27 AM -0700 6/25/02, John Leary wrote:
No argument there. 45-70 is great for taking down large game. However
it is also overkill for infantry and not optimized for taking down infantry.
(sort of like using a Barret light 50 for ground hogs...it works but you don't
have much ground hog left). Back in the day,
45-70 was great for the soldiers, but it is far too heavy for what
diggers/grunts need now or will want in the future. The ideal is for
small compact rounds that carry sufficient energy for taking down a red force
trooper at range who has armor. Read small fast round, compact case.
Big dangerous game need big massive rounds that mushroom deep into the target
and don't crater or fragment close to the surface. They also don't need to
deviate when they strike bone.
This all assumes that you are shooting bug nasty beasts that will knock you
down and then stomp on you (read Cape Buffalo). If your farmers are shooting
at small varments that make off with their chickens or crop they want smaller
bullets pushed to extreme velocity with large cartridges on really flat
trajectories. When you push a small bullet really fast, it tends to fragment
when it strikes the target. Specialist varment bullets are made to fragment
and take the animal out. Cratering isn't an issue here. Cratering on a big
animal is.
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 01:43:00PM -0400, Ryan M Gill wrote:
...and you have rather fewer shots in your basic load, which if there are lots
of ground hogs may be a major concern.
> johnmatkinson@yahoo.com wrote:
There's a saying in the computer industry, "Security by obscurity isn't". If
your equipment can't handle inspection by the enemy then it is pretty
worthless. It will eventually all boil down to good
software encryption. If I have a public/private key
setup equivalent to what we can do today my military equipment can be
compatible with my civilian equipment and everything will be wonderful. I key
in the public keys of the units I want to talk to and the communication is
secure.
The problem is most governments don't want their civilians to have truly
secure communications.
> At 2:44 PM -0400 6/25/02, Roger Books wrote:
The further extrapolation of this is that you can't make good crypto math
secret. People will build systems that are sufficiently secure. PGP is a good
example. The Open Source community is pretty closely aligned with the hacker
community.
Or they'll buy them from people who do make them. Look at the slow downward
spiral of US made secure network hardware sales over seas because of the NSA's
finger in every exported crypto pie.
G'day,
> Are you talking about mortars and missles??
All built on the same theme, external disc, central payload... sounds weird I
know;)
> I would also expect that the first thing an invader
Assuming said invader is from a different planet and superior enough to pull
it off. Most of the time they're from the same planet, different colony site.
Even off world ones don't get to descend on mass and take out a planet with a
few million population. I do have centres but think Persian
set-ups
of towns/cities (or even Aussie outback homesteads) not modern
megacities. On top of that the planet itself is often enough protection, you
put a foot wrong you may not have much of a foot left so to speak;)
> Uhhh, your civillians use frequency-hopping encrypted
Yep.
> You just made my intel guy's day. They'll send a spy
Not unless you can speak Tangelo.... we're run by historians you know, we know
how the US beat the enemy code breakers of WWII;)
> And since I send people to prison for misplacing
Knowing how well I play that's the least of my worries;)
> That's why specific family lines are tasked with
Specific xandan (families... and at this point I will profusely apologise to
all the Persian speakers in the audience for massacring their language!) have
certain duties within their daste (squad). So one xandan is tasked with
maintaining the PA, others with being medics or mechanics or radiomen etc.
> Military equipment eats POL....
Do the weapons though? Pack animals are a big must in this setting, that and
gliders so I'm less concerned with vehicles - or lots of vehicles at any
rate... savar's (fast-riders who risk their own death to get messages
through) are heroes, but they're also volunteers and usually from rather
"weird" xandan.
> The point is, which one will your computer choose?
Just like a human you train it, it learns it decides... that's the beauty of
neural nets, especially given a couple more hundred years of playing with
them.
> You have critters that can kill a tank?
Yep, in fact there are a few different kinds that work in different ways,
that's why you REALLY don't want to attract them;)
Cheers
> --- Roger Books <books@jumpspace.net> wrote:
Computer security!= military radio security. It's pretty well known that no
one listens to US SINCGARS
transmissions, while the only hope people like Al-Q
(who seem to be using cell phones for most commo) have is to hope that we
can't pick out and translate their transmissions in time to make use of them.
This isn't
like the internet where every pimple-faced dweeb with
not enough morals and far too much time on his hands can spend endless amounts
of time and computer power trying to break the security. If you can't find the
freq I'm using, you can't even record the damn message in order to try and
break the crypto.:)
> can't
If you get a filled radio, in short order you are talking to everyone using
that fill. If you get a
z-ed out one, it's beneficial but in the long run, not
the short run. Since I'm talking about an operation as expensive as invading a
planet, it's being planned in the long term.
There are people in prison in the US for being negligent about comsec
equipment. I doubt this will change.
> The problem is most governments don't want their
No, they don't.
Why would they? Why do you need secure tactical radios? Who are you going to
war with?
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
Ummm...
Do I get a pressure washer??
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Same caliber?? That defeats the purpose of alleged "heavy" weapons.
> Assuming said invader is from a different planet and
Hell, no. In fact, they'd be a prime target of bandits and raiders.
> with a few million population. I do have centres but
Which Persians?
The ones Basileus Alexander rode through? I'll have to try that some time...
> On top of that the planet itself is often enough
My inclination would be drop nerve gas all over the place.
> Not unless you can speak Tangelo.... we're run by
Tangelo? Isn't that a fruit? Unless it's as nasty as Basque or Navajo to
learn, we'll have some polyglot on it and figure it out in short time. Plus we
got
plenty of those high-speed analysis AIs that you've
got running your TACFIRE nets running linguistic and crypto analysis.:)
> >> That's why specific family lines are tasked with
If there's one, I'd be surprised.
If there were 2, I might faint away in surprise.
> have certain duties within their daste (squad). So
O Kyrie!
It's not a militia, it's a verdammt feudal bleedin' levy! This is getting more
interesting all the time.
Someday you'll have to write up all this background so I get it in more than
bits and pieces!
> > Military equipment eats POL....
Small arms do need lubricated regularly.
> in this setting, that and
Grav tanks. Definitely need grav tanks.:)
> > You have critters that can kill a tank?
Gotta find some high-speed subsonic dohicky that
drives them all nuts and sends them fleeing.
Or maybe a vehicle coating that smells like the musk of the biggest, meanest
predator on the planet. That way we only have to deal with their amorous or
territorial inclinations rather than everyone's silly ideas about trying to
eat composite alloys.
G'day,
> Same caliber?? That defeats the purpose of alleged
See to my warped mind heavy weapons has to do with the bang not the delivery,
you only use heavy weapons when you're not going to be too close
for it to be a painfully two-edged sword.
> Hell, no. In fact, they'd be a prime target of
And they do have a bit of that... adds to the flavour... especially the Narpo
raiders, who would've thought that a coralloid lifeform could taste so good;)
> The ones Basileus Alexander rode through? I'll have
Keep going back sunshine;)
> My inclination would be drop nerve gas all over the
Very helpful if you then need to get down and use the place yourself;)
> Tangelo? Isn't that a fruit? Unless it's as nasty as
Yes its nasty (and rather swear word laden);)
> Plus we got plenty of those high-speed analysis AIs that you've
Hoist on my own petard;) Good point I'll have to think about that one;)
> It's not a militia, it's a verdammt feudal bleedin'
Its happening slowly... mainly around midnight, when washing is done, children
are finally asleep and I haven't yet died from exhaustion;)
...mind you not helped by multiple disk failure which lost the majority of the
original timeline and my transcriptions of ancient tablets (so I could fool
myself in to thinking I knew dialects when I probably just asked the nearest
red kidney bean who's camel he's playing hopscotch with)
> Small arms do need lubricated regularly.
Thanks.
> Grav tanks. Definitely need grav tanks. :)
They'd be nice... so long as they don't set-up sympathetic vibrations in
the underlying substrata... a question I've been meaning to ask. Does anyone
have any idea whether they'll be a noisy thing (especially in the
infrasound, or whatever non-biologists call those really deep sounds
that elephants etc use to communicate long distance)?
> Gotta find some high-speed subsonic dohicky that
Unfortunately that will just attract them worse... think about the frenzy you
can send a shark into if you send a helicopter in low over the
water...
> Or maybe a vehicle coating that smells like the musk
Unfortunately like I said there are different sizes.... in the southern
jungles (based on the hero's local geographical bias) there are swarms of
minute "insects" (pushing the nanobit size range), in the central desert its
the dune sharks (which I have a vague feeling have probably turned up in heaps
of scifi, but I haven't read enough to figure out which ones) and along the
northern mountain ridges its packs of lemurellas (sort of like flying foxes).
The nansects are harmless...unless they get in and then you're subject to the
symbiotic plague; the dun sharks are you're typical "and you though megaldon
had a nice set of teeth" kinda monsters; and the lemurellas are more just an
annoying pest that hang round, make noise, rip bits off, steal things and
generally land you in a whole bunch of uncomfortable trouble... unless its
breeding season, then they're just berserk.
Cheers
> On 25-Jun-02 at 21:04, John Atkinson (johnmatkinson@yahoo.com) wrote:
> > The problem is most governments don't want their
The Japanese, the French, and anyone else that wants business secrets.
Industrial espionage is a major industry.
> At 6:14 PM -0700 6/25/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Do you use a pressure washer on sealed bearings often? Now, I know it isn't a
problem with dry pin tracks, but general automotive bearings doesn't like high
pressure water sprayed into them unless you repack all the bearings.
Besides, all the crunch bits like the bones and stuff may or may not come out
with the pressure washer....
> On 25-Jun-02 at 21:30, John Atkinson (johnmatkinson@yahoo.com) wrote:
> > > You have critters that can kill a tank?
How about something that attaches itself to metal with a super adhesive with a
cacoon made from a single carbon fiber molecule? It's a wasp analog that preys
on titanium shelled snails. It not only gums up the
works but can bore 1/4 inch through any known alloy...
Hell on tracks, GEV fan blades, pivot pins for hatches, gun strength, etc etc.
> At 11:13 PM -0400 6/25/02, Roger Books wrote:
And this evolved how?
John said:
> > My inclination would be drop nerve gas all over the
Beth said:
> Very helpful if you then need to get down and use the place yourself
Nerve gas tailored to te locals won't necessarily bother humans.
JA
> > Gotta find some high-speed subsonic dohicky that
B
> Unfortunately that will just attract them worse... think about the
So get the subsonic doohickey, put it on a drone and send it off to some place
you *aren't*. If you know where the enemy is, you can simply fit one of your
light aircraft with this, maybe give it a quick camo paintjob, and send it out
to draw off the vermin. It'll be....a Pied Piper.
> Unfortunately like I said there are different sizes.... in the
don't we call these "bacteria", or do you have something else in mind?
> in the central desert its
Why do people insist on putting big carnivores in deserts? If it's a dune
desert, what are these critters eating? Are they swimming through the dunes?
If so, what justifies the energy to move around by pushing sand out of the
way, instead of just getting out in the air at
Well, it didn't used to be a desert... It used to be a large plain, covered
with all sorts of scrumptuous furballs. One rather large "landshark" took care
of the furballs, the trees and the
grass on a 3-day binge, and now he's sincerely p'd off because there
isn't much left to eat.
on 02.6.26 0:57 PM, Laserlight at laserlight@quixnet.net scribbleth:
> in the central desert its the dune sharks
From: Edward Lipsett:
> Well, it didn't used to be a desert... It used to be a large plain,
This reminds me, we need to design the SaVasku boarding constructs some time.
I'll get things started. Take one part Alien, three parts Motie Warrior, one
part spider, add a cup of HP Lovecraft and a tablespoon of LSD, mix well and
add ice.
You left out the most crucial part: a can opener!
on 02.6.26 1:17 PM, Laserlight at laserlight@quixnet.net scribbleth:
> This reminds me, we need to design the SaVasku boarding constructs
G'day,
> Nerve gas tailored to te locals won't necessarily bother humans.
Some of the locals are humans!;)
> So get the subsonic doohickey, put it on a drone and send it off to
Another reason vehicles can be shot on sight...;)
> don't we call these "bacteria", or do you have something else in mind?
Something else as these are multicellular.
> Why do people insist on putting big carnivores in deserts? If it's a
Based on the read preds that do this, its cooler to stay just under the
surface and "mole" along rather than expose a large surface body to that much
radiation (and trying to support it without bits getting burnt)... on the
upside at least this way you can see it coming.... bugs bunny style
;)
Cheers
G'day,
> How about something that attaches itself to metal with
After the last major comet collision the major herbivore niche was empty, this
allowed the shallow swamp dwelling snails to push further on land. As they did
this the developed desiccation resistant shells and egg coatings (actually it
was the other way round but there were no biologists there to jot that down,
but it has kept great swaths of academia locked in perpetual uproar for a good
part of 70 years now... 4 million years after the event). The expansion in
snail folivores meant that there was a large pool of unused biomass allowing
for the detritus feeding microwasps to extend their nursery sites (they lay
their eggs in their larvae's future prey) and increase in size and brood size.
Unfortunately as the wasps got more aggressive and wide spread the snails
needed thicker shells. They found the most efficient way was to incorporate
undigested and chemically processed ore particles into the quinpartite
structure of their shell matrix. The resulting history of
coevolution leaves us with the metali-snails and their oviparasitic
wasps on the tray in front of you. Have fun in the dissection and watch out
not to get any of the attachment sack on your fingers... or you'll find
yourself intimately attached to your dinner tray when you get to the dorms
tonight....
;)
--- Edward Lipsett <translation@intercomltd.com>
wrote:
> > Why do people insist on putting big carnivores in
Sand provides a lot of trace elements! And besides, the told you it was really
mean.
:-)
Bye for now,
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 12:17:55AM -0400, Laserlight wrote:
"I was expecting... I dunno, a big spider or squid or something. I've seen the
spikeys often enough, got a feel for the way their ships move.
"But when this thing burned through the lock... it just stood there for
about half a second, pulling its acid-sprayers back into its body, and
we had nothing to compare it with. Yes, it had chitin armour. Yes, it
had tentacles. But it just looked _alien_.
"Didn't keep us from shooting it, of course. The armour was heavily sloped,
and we got ricochets all over the place until Smithy brought up
his PIG. _I'm_ not going to ask how he got that thing out of the
armoury. That made enough of a hole in the armour that the rest of us could
get some shots in...
"Oh, and meanwhile the bastard was moving, at least as fast as we could
manage - seemed to be sprouting limbs in all directions, so it could
haul itself along a wall or a ceiling as easily as a floor. Dodged around a
lot, too. And with all that muscle behind the limbs, they weren't something
you wanted to get close to, as too many of us found out.
"Five plasma bolts later, plus sustained fire from the survivors, and we took
it down. Then the other five came through."
> On 25-Jun-02 at 23:38, Ryan Gill (rmgill@mindspring.com) wrote:
As a way of dealing with titanium covered snails, which evolved as a way for
the snails to avoid predators.
How about a tree with microfibers covering it? the fibers carry a neurotoxin
and float through air.
This evolved how? If you want to start the "This evolved how?" tact I'm sure
some of the biologists can come up with some real world examples that are not
immediately apparent as to what caused them to come into being. I know some of
the Australian wildlife (such as the above tree) has left me thinking "How the
#$&& did that come to be?"
> Why do people insist on putting big carnivores in deserts? If it's a
Beth said:
> Based on the real preds that do this, it's cooler to stay just under
Examples? I got the impression you were talking about a larger animal but this
sounds more like somethiong pretty small?
> At 7:58 AM +0100 6/26/02, Roger Burton West wrote:
This is where one of those civilian elephant rifles would come in real handy.
Heck, one.600 Nitro Express would probably knock if flat. 'Course thinking
about it, did the Marines have a sniper with a HMR on board?
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Heck, one .600 Nitro Express would probably knock if
For shipboard use? Not bloody likely.
Have you ever handled a.50 cal sniper rifle?? I
thought you were one of the heavy-duty gun nuts on the
list. I have played around with a Barrett and it is NOT something you want in
CQB. You just can't handle it well enough.
That's before you start in on the problems with
shooting armor-piercing rounds off in a space where
very little 'reacts well with bullets', to quote one movie.
> At 1:42 PM -0700 6/26/02, John Atkinson wrote:
A.50 barret or other.50 BMG sniper rifle? No. A Bren LMG with the 100 Round
drum (loaded, albeit with the wooden tipped blanks) on top? Yes. Likely very
similar in heft. I've also handled a friend's.50
barreled Boyes AT-Rifle (not a Sniper gun, but great for poking holes
in SdzKfz 232s and other German Armour).
> thought you were one of the heavy-duty gun nuts on the
Yeah, but if something big and mean came on board my ship, I'd get someone
with one of those to shoot the damn thing. That or set up a saw and hose it
down.
> That's before you start in on the problems with
If it's being eaten by some monster or killing it and patching leaks in the
pressure skin, I'll go with patching holes in the pressure skin.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Do you use a pressure washer on sealed bearings
Which ones? There's nothing on the outside of an AVLB that won't benefit from
a good pressure washing. I just wish we had them every time we came out of the
field.
> Besides, all the crunch bits like the bones and
That's why we have privates in the platoon...
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
OK, I'll have to wait for the writeup to figure that statement out because
it's not making much sense to me.
> > The ones Basileus Alexander rode through? I'll
Back? Medes and Persians overruning Babylon?
> > My inclination would be drop nerve gas all over
Actually, most nerve agents are non-persistant (6
hours or less) and anyway, can be tailored to not really bother humans that
much.
> > Plus we got plenty of those high-speed analysis
I figure AIs are stupidly expensive so they are reserved for tasks for which
that sort of computer power is preferable to human judgement. For instance,
our finance detachments are primarily run by AIs since they can handle 95% of
the problems. But there's a human to appeal to since Joe doesn't really feel
right being told by a plastic box that he's wrong.
> > Grav tanks. Definitely need grav tanks. :)
Shouldn't be that noisy. I mean, most of the noise of a modern AFV is the
sound of the engine and the 'clank clank clank' of the treads. Fusion power
plants should be pretty quiet.
> > Gotta find some high-speed subsonic dohicky that
OK, so I drop them from helicopters and use them as impromptu obstacle belts.
Drop them where I'm not.
> Unfortunately like I said there are different
So vulnerable to really low concentrations of nerve agent, rather like Earth
bugs are bothered by DEET, which isn't quite toxic enough to kill people.
> in the central desert its
Large individuals are trackable (by vibration or GPR or any number of methods)
and hence killable. No one feels froggy with 20mm API rounds stuck in them.
> along the northern mountain ridges its packs of
Probably the hardest to deal with.
> At 2:00 PM -0700 6/26/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Really? None in the hubs for the road wheels? There must be a bearing there of
some sort for the road wheel to spin on....Is there a grease fitting there?
> That's why we have privates in the platoon. . .
Heh...
> --- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
Yeah, there is. But like I said, I've never seen it screwed up from a good
pressure washing.
> --- Ryan Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:
John said:
> For shipboard use? Not bloody likely.
Not necessarily *intended* for shipboard use...but if they have one in the
arms locker for when they're on the ground, they might be
> Ryan Gill wrote:
Or one of these.
<http://www.birdman.org/products/M82entryl.htm>
G'day,
> Examples? I got the impression you were talking about a
Many desert dwelling animals from insect up to small mammal size do it in
Terran deserts. The dune sharks I'm talking about are poodle to great dane
size in length (though dorso-ventrally flattened), this doesn't mean
they can't use the same principles. And yes there is enough energy for them to
survive in the desert, they just have to go about things in the right way,
thus they're ambush preds.
Cheers
G'day,
> OK, I'll have to wait for the writeup to figure that
What I meant was you wouldn't want to use heavy weapons with wide area of
effect (big bang) if you're going to be close to the spot yourself, and that's
why you'd have small "bang" ammo too. Thus it wasn't the size of the delivery
system that matter just the end "bang" and whether it coincided with what was
in your best interests of the moment. For example, you're not going to want
something with a 50m radius of effect if you're going to be within 20m when
you use it etc.
> Back? Medes and Persians overruning Babylon?
I was thinking of the general lay out of the towns and cities and their nature
rather than any particular historical event, but that is the period I'm
thinking about.
> Actually, most nerve agents are non-persistant (6
In our atmosphere, when there are floating clouds of algae that concentrate
and sequester things from the atmosphere and then (potentially) excrete it
later you may just have added something long term to the biome. You may be
relieved to note not all the colonies in the Henti Federation are as afflicted
by biota as this one;)
> I figure AIs are stupidly expensive...
Well given what I can already do with neural nets today the AIs of my worlds
aren't expensive to start its just the training that can make their costs rise
rapidly;)
> OK, so I drop them from helicopters and use them as
That'd work, though if they're in lemurella territory you'd want your
helicopters to get moving pretty quickly. AN aerospace drop may be better.
> So vulnerable to really low concentrations of nerve
Yes and no. There will be things that can keep them at bay (and these are
known to the local human inhabitants), but as they're alien bugs who've been
in contact with humans for 400 yrs now their resistant to any insecticides
from the Terran sphere that ever worked on them in the first place. However,
as the locals do know the solutions which kill them (and how quickly you must
cycle components due to the generation time of these critters) you intel guys
could probably get it sorted given a little time. Hopefully they won't
bioaccumulate or sequester your nerve agents while you're waiting to find the
one that works on them;)
> Large individuals are trackable (by vibration or GPR
Ambush preds can be hard to track (they don't move much if at all), though if
they do have to move to get within attack range than automated PDS etc may
have a chance on them as they hit surface layers for their final homing run.
Think of Great Whites, they patrol at depth and watch for things of interest
then they rocket to the surface to take it. If you're videotaping the accent
you'll get one image, maybe two before they hit, its why you never see the
shark that takes you;)
Cheers
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> What I meant was you wouldn't want to use heavy
OK, so you're saying that if your riflemen are 100m from the enemy, they just
swap warheads and all of a sudden every one of them is lobbing mortar round
equivelants?
> > Back? Medes and Persians overruning Babylon?
OK.
> > Actually, most nerve agents are non-persistant (6
Nerve agents break down with sunlight and moisture. But at any rate, it sounds
like I'd not particularly want this crummy planet in the first place unless
there's a really, really strong reason to take it.
And then I'm just about ready to drop rocks on it to deal with the damn
biosphere and to hell with the humans.
The other option is to find some torqued-off locals
who are willing to sell their sovreignty for a mess of pottage (and foolish
enough to believe that assistance comes with no strings attached) and use them
as local guides.
> Yes and no. There will be things that can keep them
Well, if my advance agents can walk into the corner
drugstore and buy a bottle of OFF-equivelant, then I'm
good.
If every little old lady has their own recipie I may have to apply some
interrogation techniques.
> What I meant was you wouldn't want to use heavy weapons with wide
"Heavy weapons" does not necessarily imply wide area of effect. Heavy weapons
for an infantry platoon (which is what started this) might be antitank
missiles, recoilless rifles, heavy machine guns, etc. If your civilian hunting
rifle round is 5mm, you can use the same round
in a light SAW--but that's it. You would probably want a heavier
caliber (7.62mm, 9mm, 12.5mm) for heavier weapons.
> > OK, so I drop them from helicopters and use them as
Sounds like artillery-scatterable lures would work just fine. And a
G'day,
> OK, so you're saying that if your riflemen are 100m
If there were enough warheads yes. Unfortunately the stuff required to make
the mortar warheads is rarer than the stuff for making "normal rifle" warheads
and so its entrusted to a few families which happen to populate the "mortar
squad".
> Nerve agents break down with sunlight and moisture.
Oh there is;)
> And then I'm just about ready to drop rocks on it to
Yes that has been toyed with by others in moments of frustration;)
> The other option is to find some torqued-off locals
Possible too, though hasn't happened yet.
> Well, if my advance agents can walk into the corner
While its not EVERY little old lady (just specific ones) the later is closer
to the way it would end up working... unless you're a nice friendly sort then
they may just adopt you and give it to you regardless;)
Cheers
G'day,
> "Heavy weapons" does not necessarily imply wide area of effect. Heavy
You don't necessarily need a bigger carrier to get a bigger punch if you're
using alternate chemicals/mixtures in the warhead in the first place.
Think of it this way you may get a lot more omph out of 100ml of whisky than a
100ml of water they're still both 100ml;)
> Sounds like artillery-scatterable lures would work just fine. And a
Where are your artillery sitting? How did they get there?
Cheers
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
> While its not EVERY little old lady (just specific
Conquest by assimilation is a bit slow for my taste, as well as making for a
really crappy wargame.
On the other hand, Greeks do have the advantage of having the best seafood on
the planet for an inducement.
Beth said:
> You don't necessarily need a bigger carrier to get a bigger punch if
You were muttering about not using too much heavy weapons because of the area
of effect. I was pointing out that "heavy weapons" don't
necessarily mean "area effect"--they could very well just have better
probability of killing point targets.
> > Sounds like artillery-scatterable lures would work just fine. And
Where are your settlements? How did they get there?
> At 3:59 PM -0700 6/26/02, John Atkinson wrote:
Depends on how long the water sits in the bearings. Of course they could be a
really fancy form of bearing given that it's expected that crews will use
pressure washers at the bird bath to clean off the
tracks/roadwheels/rollers/sprocket/etc.
> At 12:16 AM +0100 6/27/02, David Brewer wrote:
Yeah, that would do the trick. All I can say is OWW (and thats not the target
speaking...)
G'day,
> Where are your settlements?
In walled citied on bedrock outcrops
> How did they get there?
That is a very long story;)
Cheers
From: Beth.Fulton@csiro.au
> Where are your settlements?
> How did they get there?
If it's all that inhospitable, why is anyone living there? And why is anyone
fighting over it?
GZG meets SNL -
Sand Shark: *Knock knock*
Pvt: "Hey Sarge, someone's tapping on the ramp of our APC!"
Sgt: "Well, find out who it is."
Pvt: "Who is it?"
Sand Shark: "SAND SHARK!"
Pvt: "Sand Shark? Well I'm not letting you in!"
*Knock knock*
Pvt: "There it is again, Sarge!"
Sgt: "Check, maybe it's Bravo team coming back."
Pvt: "Who is it?"
Sand Shark: "UMMM... BRAVO TEAM!" (Sand sharks have excellent hearing)
Pvt: "Oh, okay..." *opens ramp*
*Sand shark bursts in and grabs the private, dragging him into the desert and
chomps on him a bit. Then he settles down with the intent of
having B-Team for the main course.*
> On Wed, 2002-06-26 at 19:44, Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
I just reread this... *How* much LSD are you using, Laserlight? Usually it's
measured in (IIRC) micrograms or some such!
Gracias,
Glenn/Triphibious@juno.com
This is my Science Fiction Alter Ego E-mail address.
Historical - Warbeads@juno.com
Fantasy and 6mm - dwarf_warrior@juno.com
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 13:18:13 +0900 Edward Lipsett
> <translation@intercomltd.com> writes:
G'day,
> If it's all that inhospitable, why is anyone living there?
In my timeline, because there had been an FTL accident that saw them deposited
outside even the area Nyrath as neatly mapped for the GZGverse (and this was
one of the earliest colony fleets before the GZGverse got as big as Nyrath has
mapped), so they were way too far from home to ask for help. When they found
(or thought they had) a place they could live
(i.e.
breath the atmosphere and not die from toxic shock on immediate contact with
the biota) they were happy and really had no other choices. 400 years later
its become home... and like most family traditions its a habit that may suck
but they're used to it its a bit hard to kick;)
On a side note given how alien non Earth planets are potentially gonna be, Mr
I live on airless asteroids shouldn't be so picky;P;)
> And why is anyone fighting over it?
Why do people ever fight over stuff?;)
Cheers
> On a side note given how alien non Earth planets are potentially
AE planetoids have air--on the inside, where it's useful. But we
don't have anything like killer mites, sand sharks, or diamond-backed
venomous snails. Except at the BioGen Labs sovereignity, of course.
> > And why is anyone fighting over it?
Lebensraum, trade routes, or natural resources. Something someone
wants--or wants someone else to leave alone.
G'day,
> Lebensraum, trade routes, or natural resources. Something someone
That's what I meant... "the usual list of reasons";)
Cheers
> On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Ryan Gill wrote:
> At 12:16 AM +0100 6/27/02, David Brewer wrote:
I probably shouldn't ask (g*n c*ntr*l being the internet taboo subject
that it is...) but is that thing civilian-legal down in the USA?
Or is this Birdman outfit a law enforcement/SWAT supply store?
Either way... a semi-auto .50cal weapon... Oh bog...
Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://wind.prohosting.com/~warbard/games.html -
> --
Hi Brian,
I too took a peek at that monstrosity after it was posted here (yesterday?).
It looked WAAYY goofy to me, so I took a look through the rest of the website.
The whole thing is a big joke... It isn't a real gun at all, it's a guy
playing with Photoshop...
Some of the other "products" on that site are *hilarious*...
Look for the wood.50 rifle with the (beercan) flash hider and the
stone-and-rubberband firing mechanism...
> ><http://www.birdman.org/products/M82entryl.htm>
***************************************
> At 10:34 PM -0700 6/27/02, Brian Burger wrote:
Well, if it has more than a 16" barrel it's not even NFA. Further, if you have
about $10,000 or so, you can buy a full auto M2HB legally. Take that a step
further and add 4 of them to the Maxon turret and you could really rock and
rool. There's also people that own miniguns.
> Or is this Birdman outfit a law enforcement/SWAT supply store?
Mostly. It's meant as a door opener similar to the shotguns with the ceramic
slugs..50 will take out a hinge or a lock pretty dam well I susupect.
I liked the Do The Dew Shotgun...)
http://www.birdman.org/products/DoTheDew.htm
> Look for the wood .50 rifle with the (beercan) flash hider and the
> > And why is anyone fighting over it?
The great my barren rock is better than your barren rock war;)
Jeremey
> >How does a fusion reactor react to a barrage of 20cm
Actually, not worse than a normal petrol engine. There isn't going to be a
nuclear reaction. At worst, your hydrogen will burn in a normal, chemical
fire. And the reactor will not need much fuel, so there shouldn't be much to
burn. If it's built ouf the right materials (sensible anyway) there won't be
much contamination, either.
Greetings
> --- Glenn M Wilson <triphibious@juno.com> wrote:
On a side note:
How long after we start dissecting Savasku corpses will it be before we cook
up some equivelant of bug spray? It seems to me that Mr.Organic Spaceships
could be sucking if we get a decent delivery system. Of course for boarding
usage, just round up a bunch of those tranq guns that biologist types use on
large mammals. If their biology is alien enough, it might
even be something that's completely non-toxic to
humans.
> --- Beth.Fulton@csiro.au wrote:
Well, they have to eat something. Food generally is difficult to grow on
bedrock outcrops.
So sieze the outlying agricultural areas, interdict the supply routes into the
city, and wait for starvation to set in.
John Atkinson schrieb:
> > In walled citied on bedrock outcrops
As always, it depends...
If they have stored up stuff, collected all available supplies from their
surroundings and your logistics capabilities are limited, it may well be the
besiegers who starve. Quite a number of sieges had to be abandoned because of
hunger or disease.
Such situations are somewhat pointless to debate in the abstract.
Better to put lead on the table ;-)
Or at least do a campaign game.
Greetings
John Atkinson schrieb:
> > In walled citied on bedrock outcrops
Fusion power, a water supply, and hydroponics. I grant that I don't see
the *point* to that--might as well set up on a planetoid, your solar
power is free, your water is pre-sterilized, you don't have to worry
about native microbes etc having unexpected effects--but it could be
done.
> --- KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
> If they have stored up stuff, collected all
Of course, if you've got the logistics to move a corps of fighting men across
the stars, presumably you have
the follow-on capability to bring in millions of
rations to feed said fighting men, at least until you've secured enough
farmers who aren't suicidally brave. As for disease, field sanitation has
improved somewhat since the Middle Ages.
And I guarantee that with the advent of modern artillery, any siege will
necessarily be of short duration if there's to be anything left to fight over.
> Such situations are somewhat pointless to debate in
Actually, we're starting a campaign game at Don's
place involving a 4-power coalition knocking off an
IFed planet. Should be interesting. Neutron bombs to tackle military units
removed from settlements, Templar PA to hit PAD complexes and other hard
targets, NAC mechanized for city-fighting, and Mongols
and Romans for open-field battle.
--- "laserlight@quixnet.net" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
wrote:
> > So sieze the outlying agricultural areas,
How well distributed is your power network? As the US demonstrated in Serbia,
once you start smacking power plants the pain level gets pretty high pretty
quick. How does a fusion reactor react to a barrage of 20cm RAM shells, or an
SOF team with a HAMR, or precision strikes from aerospace fighters, or
antitank missles from VTOLs, or a HAR strike? Do you have more reactors than I
have shells? Sieges would suck much because you don't even have the ability to
allow the civillian population to leave the city because they'd all get eaten
by the nasty fauna!
Taking this planet would be a really tedious exercise in siege warfare
assisted by airmobility, followed by
a long-term counterinsurgency campaign. Expect heavy
usage of defoliants, non-persistant chemical weapons,
and neutron warheads just out of sheer frustration. It would probably take
years to take the major settlements, and generations to track down the
bandits. Which is, I suppose, the point. Too expensive for the potential
return. The only thing that would make it economical is if you bribe a faction
into accepting your aid and use them. But then collaborators make any
enterprise easier.
Internal warfare is likely to be indecisive and protracted, more along the
lines of raids to secure portable wealth and quick grabs of border territory
intended to secure easily exploitable resources (because next year you might
lose it again). This makes for a warfare style that resembles blood feuds more
than anything else. Think Middle Eastern
mountain people, Balkans, or Scottish/English Border.
Planetoids... there's no real point to invading them, because the damage done
would negate the point.
Better to play interstellar pool--Whistle-click Pod
Sovreignty, left corner pocket.
> How well distributed is your power network?
That's where the micro power plant idea comes in real handy. Lot's of small
plants, fewer big ones, makes it real easy to miss some.
> At 5:51 PM +0200 6/28/02, KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
Interdiction, not siege. Its not the same thing.
> On Fri, 2002-06-28 at 12:27, John Atkinson wrote:
No power network, individual fuel-cell generators or microturbines
(heck, they're developing semi-feasible ones NOW.) See, all those
exotic algae and metal snails that make life sooo difficult have a
tendency to break down/short out or otherwise cause problems for
wire-based power grids... so each organization tends to provide for it's
own power consumption.
> Taking this planet would be a really tedious exercise
Actually, I think what Beth has in mind for her people's setting is something
like a GZG version of Australia. A place where ferriners think "Why the hell
do they live there?" and the locals think "There's no place else I'd rather
live."
Dangerous enough to make it hazardous to be a little ignorant, but mostly
interesting and a little challenging if you're raised around the
particular (and peculiar) flora/fauna that pose the risks.
I think it's neat the way the same kinds of things that cause some the
problems are also part of the solutions:
Algae: Airborne grab stuff from the air and excrete toxic by-products
for REAL acid rains... but they also purify the air in the habitats when used
properly as a type of "filter element", as well as being a source
of food and fuel when processed. She has algae-based body armor, so
presumably, there are algae forms of clothing...
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2002 at 06:59:02PM -0400, Laserlight wrote:
> Not necessarily *intended* for shipboard use...but if they have one in
That was pretty much the way I envisioned the use of the PIG in the
original post - I see it as at least the size of an LMG, not exactly
handy in a corridor fight, and bloody dangerous to the ship's fabric.
G'day,
To answer a heap of questions in one go....
John said:
> Well, they have to eat something. Food generally is
They do gather from the local countryside - mainly for variation not
staples
- but their primary source is hydroponics inside the city. Power sources
are independent generators based on fusion, geothermal and solar energy
depending who and where you are (Flak got it right about short outs, there is
also the tyranny of distance for a large scale grid anyway so just easier to
be independent).
> How does a fusion reactor react to a barrage of 20cm
Probably not well;)
> Do you have more reactors than I have shells?
I think the cities would be in pretty bad shape anyway whether all your shells
had hit energy sites or not.
> Sieges would suck much because you don't even have the
Very true, though the guys on the outside may find the fauna equally annoying,
thus attempted breaches happen sooner in "traditional" warfare in this place.
Doesn't mean an offworlder can't do it more effectively by shelling from space
and then coming down.
> Taking this planet would be a really tedious exercise...
Yep, which is why they've survived this long (in my fiction timeline at least,
though no games so far... hopefully to change very soon to answer Karl's
campaign comment)
> Internal warfare is likely to be indecisive and
Yep! Though the fauna and flora aren't insurmountable once you know how to
deal with them, though they do remain a "drag";)
Flak commented:
> Actually, I think what Beth has in mind for her people's setting
There is a good deal of that;)
> Dangerous enough to make it hazardous to be a little ignorant, but
That was something I was after. If you're really out there on your own how
enterprising can you be and where does it take your culture? Guess its a
semi-fascination that grew out of my transition from farm-life to a city
dweller, there's just so much waste in town compared to what we had to do on
the farm. I figured if there same were true in colonisation efforts they may
well be doomed to failure.
> She has algae-based body armor, so
Yep... lichen net stockings were all the rage last season;P
Cheers