> with a multi-barrel gun mount provides AAA and CFS for the company. >A
Company? With only about 24 infantry, you are talking platoon at the most,
hardly company.
Mike
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ail Ser.?
> 24 infantry can make a company when other company elements are armored
platoons shuffled around to make up company sized task forces are the
rule -
not the exception (besides theres also an eight man battle suit squad).
> At 09:27 AM 11/5/98 EST, you wrote:
For sure! In the Canadian army, you get infantry companies (with three
platoons, etc etc) but the company size formation of armour (an armoured
Squadron in our terms) will often have an attached infantry platoon. A company
size formation with only one platoon of infantry is not at all
unusual - just would be armour heavy.
> Typically 3 maneuver (Infantry/Armor) elements in a company. An
I agree completely! I like the occasional vehicle in SG2, but even one or two
tanks on the board will dominate if you aren't careful. I played one game in
which my opponent had a tank that sucked in about six missiles before I killed
it. Granted there was plenty of bad luck involved, but still... We've taken to
using lightly armed APC's in small numbers, occasionally a single tank, and
the GZG hover jeep with machinegun. Size one infantry walkers and armed jeeps
add interest and "spice" to the infantry battles, but you can kill them with
small arms fire so they aren't unbalancing!
I tend to play on the floor in a large meeting room, space isn't really an
issue (though my knees tend to give out, I'm in my fifties) So I carry knee
pads with my SG II stuff.
Playing multi-player on the floor allows you to use the game without
getting seriously bogged down in record sheets and stuff.
> ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> >24 infantry can make a company when other company elements are
Typically 3 maneuver (Infantry/Armor) elements in a company. An
armor-heavy company could indeed be a platoon of mechanized grunts (only
a lunatic has light infantry trying to keep up with armor by jogging, although
in city fights it's a reasonable combo) with two platoons of tanks or tank
destroyers or whatever floats your boat.
But I wouldn't choose Stargrunt as the game to fight heavy armor battles.
That's really a DSII thing, for reasons of weapon ranges. Unless, again,
you're fighting in the city or on the Golan Heights or somewhere else where
visibility is down to a couple hundred meters. I don't have any SGII vehicles,
just because I happen to think the system is handles infantry action far
better and plays smoother if you don't complicate things. YMMV.
In a message dated 11/5/98 4:33:41 PM EST, oglover@mov.vic.gov.au
writes:
<< w come on now. Even an SASR Troop (platoon equivalent) is more than 24 men.
So even with 6 man squads you are talking 5 squads including the command
element!? The size of the force you are talking about is unlikely to be able
to conduct protracted operations at any intensity?!
> [quoted text omitted]
Yes, it's too small for an infantry only company by a long-shot. It IS
NOT, however, an infantry only company I've described. It is a company level
combined arms force consisting of one 24 man infantry unit, to which is
attached an eight man armored infantry section AND a three tank tank platoon,
three wheeled APC's attached permanently to the infantry platoon (adding in
vehicle crews as part of the platoon adds six men to this 24 man total which
seems to bother you, A RAM light artillery vehicle, a command hover car, and a
wheeled AAA multi-barrel gun mount. This is a company size force in
anybody's books isn't it?!
Aw come on now. Even an SASR Troop (platoon equivalent) is more than 24 men.
So even with 6 man squads you are talking 5 squads including the command
element!? The size of the force you are talking about is unlikely to be able
to conduct protracted operations at any intensity?!
Owen G
[quoted original message omitted]
How 'bout this:
US Armoured Company Combat Group:
Infantry Platoon: 4 Bradley IFV's with 3 crew, 6 dismount infantry each
3 Tank Platoons: 4 MBT's with 4 crew each
HQ 2 MBT's with 4 crew 2 Command Vehicles
Support Platoon: 2 Logistic Vehicles 1 Ambulance etc.
This is really approximate 'cause I made it up to illustrate the point, but
you get the general idea.
You get 12 to 18 tanks, 24 infantiers in 4 IFV's plus the supporting elements.
In the Canadian Forces, we'd probably do it with four IFV's with 3 crew and a
complete 8 person infantry section, for 32 infantiers, but the idea is the
same. You can have a company sized force with few infantry, fully capable of
protracted operations. It really depends what kind of protracted operations
you mean. This kind of formation would be working in
a Battalion Battle Group, and would have other units supporting it - you
wouldn't send it on independent operations without adding the necessary
support elements. Comparing it to the SAS isn't really fair - they work
completely differently. An SASR Troop doesn't do combined arms
armoured/mechanized stuff - they do raiding/recce/spec ops stuff. They
would need more infantiers, 'cause that's ALL they have. And how often do they
operate as a full Troop anyway? There were instances in the Gulf of the UK SAS
operating as full Troop teams (motorbike equipped scouts, the rest of the
Troop in LWB land rovers and a UNIMOG truck as the Troop
support vehicle) - but I would think that isn't how they would normally
work.
By the way - the TOE for the New Israelis that I got off the net has 24
person platoons (5 squads of 4, with a command team of 4). Again - the
TOE
depends on the mission - the New Israelis are basically a commando
assault
force - so they can organize that way. The UK SAS uses 20-man Troops (I
believe) - again, 5 sabre teams of four men each.
Also, you could always play the force as a composite unit made up of
survivors - an infantry platoon meshed in with an armoured unit after
both had taken casualties.
What we want to avoid is "power gamers" taking advantage of the command
ability to transfer actions by building a small force with many levels in the
chain of command ie company and platoon command squads able to reactivate
other squads, but you've only really got a single reinforced platoon size
unit... Having a company formation with only 24 infantry can
make sense in context, but only in certain contexts - as a regular
formation I agree it doesn't make too much sense, particularly from a
game-play point of view.
Adrian.
> At 08:28 AM 11/6/98 +1000, you wrote:
US Army Companies are triangular have only three platoons plus the command
section.
> ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> US Army Companies are triangular have only three platoons plus the
Maybe so but I've seen plenty of occasions at JRTC or NTC where the BC chose
to go with 4-platoon Company Task forces (like 2 arm 2 mech etc) and
then keep the remant of the third company as a reserve. Especially if the
battlaion has an attached inf or tank company as is usually the case. So you
might get a mech infnatry bn with a tank company attached and the mech guys
don't have to give up one of their companies.
> Glover, Owen wrote:
24 man platoons are standard in Tagmatic units, but they are all powered
armor. It's very infantry-light, but _about_equivelant_ to a modern US
Mech Infantry platoon. Which is now at 23 dismounts (2x9+5). Which any
Infantry type would tell is way to little.
> ScottSaylo@aol.com wrote:
> Yes, it's too small for an infantry only company by a long-shot. It IS
That's only two platoons, a command element, and a pair of support vehicles
(My company teams generally have two tubes, but then again I worship at the
altar of the Holy Smoke). APCs don't count as a seperate platoon. It's a short
company, which is a perfectly valid, but somewhat unusual situation unless a
unit is badly shot up.
When the unit is complete (translated: when I have scratch-built the
damned things) It will include three ducted fan VTOL's
Yeah, it's a little short but they are due reinforcements (when I scratchbuild
the models) three ducted fan VTOL's and another platoon of infantry.
Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> What we want to avoid is "power gamers" taking advantage of the
If that bothers you, try my house rule:
No unit may be re-activated (after its own action, or before... but
basically by a command from someone else) more than ONCE per game turn. So
this limts that somewhat and stops any one unit from outpacing everyone else.
("Sir, why is three section 700 meters ahead of the platoon, and how did they
kill 4 tanks and three enemy squads in the last five minutes?..... Well,
Private, it's cause I told them repeatedly to attack. It made them run faster
and shoot more...really...I'm not kidding.....no, I am not mentally
incompetent... ")
:) Tom
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> If that bothers you, try my house rule:
We play with this rule as a standard in our group too. No unit may be
re-activated more than once per game turn. Even with the rule, I've
still
seen some of the "NAC Olympic Tag Team Sprinting" happening - one game I
can remember had the person playing that squad (first time playing SG2, of
course) rolling like three or four 11's and 12's in a row for combat movement,
and the squad ended up at the other end of the table in a perfect
blocking position, and did the only real damage - and it was a recruit
(green) squad, too... It's a good rule, though!!
What I was thinking about was more along these lines: Somebody setting up a
"company" with a company HQ, two platoon HQ's, each commanding two, maybe
three infantry squads, and attached elements including maybe a tank, squad
of power armour, and maybe a jeep or two - so everything can get
reactivated. You have a reinforced platoon size force, but get all the
advantages of company level command. I've seen this kind of thing once or
twice - unless you have special scenarios developed that call for a
special situation like this, what you really have is somebody playing a
platoon level engagement and cheesing out on the rules to take advantage of
reactivation. Limiting them to one reactivation per unit per game turn helps,
but you can still reactivate nearly everything in the force...
Adrian spake thusly upon matters weighty:
> We play with this rule as a standard in our group too. No unit may be
Hey, its almost to the point where we DON'T use combat movement. If I can
predictably move 6", that is almost more useful than the possiblity I'll move
12". I mean at 7" (yeehaw) on a combat move. But when you have such a good
chance of 1 and 2 screwing me, I can see why people don't want to do it. It's
the same reason I kind of
dislike the D12 weapon vs Level 5 armour - you can still blow the
unit to hell. A bad roll for your armour.... I wouldn't design armour with
this kind of achilles heel.
It would change balance, and you'd to adjust a lot, but has anyone experimeted
with actually ROLLING the extra dice? This tends to normalize results and
reduce the outrageous (the guy who has bulletproof armour because he rolls
high) or the terrible (not being able to penetrate armour you should on
average penetrate even after four or five attempts because you suck at dice).
It would also mean out the movement. Then the odds of totally boning on combat
movement would be less (as would the odds of doing a Ben Johnson). Probably
more reflective of the more 'mean' nature of things.
> What I was thinking about was more along these lines: Somebody
We have a solution to that too: Klingon Pain Sticks.
Seriously, it may be a benefit of having that much command oversight, although
it is a lot harder. If I am the company commander and can only have one
action, I can only reactivate two subcommanders. Who can then only activate
two of their units. And this is contingent on leadership checks. So in truth,
if the command units do nothing but this, they won't do much else... and will
be left
behind....sounds like a good time for rear-area raids...
Maybe, beyond a certain point, officers start to tread on each others toes.
Sense rules all things. Munchkins should be roasted slowly over an open
fire... slowly so they learn the error of their ways and recant their
sins....roasted because they can make a good game tense for people who just
want to play....
Tom.
/************************************************