I have some questions about leader loss and chain of command.
Take a platoon (I hope I got it right this time <g>): Command Squad
- Command Team
- Platoon Leader
- Communications Specialist
- Rifle
- Rifle
- Support Team
- Support Team Leader (no command activation's)
- Rifle
- SAW
- GMS/P
Squad A
- Fire Team A1
- Squad Leader
- Rifle
- Rifle
- SAW
- Fire Team A2
- FT Leader (no command activation's)
- Rifle
- Rifle
- GMS/P
Squad B (same as squad A)
OK. It is pretty obvious that if a Fire Team Leader is lost the next senior
person in the team takes over (at least until out of immediate combat).
If a Squad Leader is lost, does command of the squad usually fall to the other
Fire Team Leader? Or is the 1st and 2nd most senior soldiers in the same team?
In the same way if the Platoon Leader buys it, would one of the squad leaders
take over, or do they usually group the most senior soldiers in the command
Squad (or Command Team)?
Going beyond my example, I will ask the same question about the loss of a
Company Commander.
Related question: If a Platoon Leader is lost does the entire platoon have to
spend an action for reorganization or just the Command Squad (or
something in-between)?
Thanks in advance.
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> On Wed, 4 Apr 2001, Bell, Brian K (Contractor) wrote:
> I have some questions about leader loss and chain of command.
> Squad A
I'm not sure how to read this. Do you intend to have a squad leader in Fire
Team A1 who can transfer actions to fire team A2?
I think the _normal_ way to handle the squad structure above would be to
use them as regular squads, and split them along the lines described, if you
want to detach part of the squad.
I'd suggest using the alternative detechment rules on www.stargrunt.com,
though, as the original ones 'feel' a bit silly to me.
Anyway, if fielding them as a single squad, a figure from that squad would
become the new leader; your choice, I think, which figure that'll be.
Please correct me if wrong?
Cheers,
> -----Original Message-----
[Bri] Sorry No.
[snip]
> Derk
--- "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)"
> If a Squad Leader is lost, does command of the squad
Other Fire Team Leader.
> In the same way if the Platoon Leader buys it, would
Depends. In most armies there is a senior NCO in the platoon who can take over
if the LT is killed. If both of these guys are dead, the senior squad leader
takes over.
> Going beyond my example, I will ask the same
The Company commander has an executive officer who assumes command upon death
of company commander. If both are killed (or if the XO is off in the rear
trying to steal supplies or whatever when the CO is dead), command devolves on
platoon leaders. If all officers are dead, presumably the First Sergeant
(Senior NCO in company) would assume command.
> On Wed, 04 April 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> If a Squad Leader is lost, does command of the squad usually fall to
I've been playing around with fire team rules of my own (I'm still not
convinced, though, that SG2 should model fire teams...) I have a squad leader
as a member of a fireteam, but he is an independent leader figure. He can
activate only the two fireteams. He does this with a transfer action. But in
essence, it's the same situation you have created.
If the squad leader is wounded, the fire team gets a new fire team leader as
per the usual rules for replacing a "squad" leader. Then, which ever fire team
leader ends up with the higher leader value becomes the squad leader. In the
case of a tie, the squad leader is in the fireteam that just had the squad
leader as a casualty.
> In the same way if the Platoon Leader buys it, would one of the squad
Usually, if a platoon leader buys it, I just create a new platoon leader,
using the standard replacement rules, from within the platoon leader squad. If
this squad is totally wiped out, the platoon does not have that level of
command. I would probably allow a reorganization action to split off a squad
leader from another squad in order to form a new platoon squad. Or I'd allow a
reorganization action for one of the other squads to become the new command
squad. In your case, I'd let a fireteam do this.
You could force the highest quality, highest leadership value squad be that
new command squad, if you prefer.
> Going beyond my example, I will ask the same question about the loss
I would say the same thing: company commander is wounded, next guy in the
squad takes over. If the entire company command squad is lost, let a platoon
squad take over with a reorganize action, but that would leave a "hole" where
a platoon squad should be.
> Related question: If a Platoon Leader is lost does the entire platoon
Just the platoon command squad. Losing the ability to activate another squad,
and taking the automatic suppression for losing a "squad" leader, as well as
the suppression marker they would get from taking casualties, is enough of a
penalty.
> On Wed, 04 April 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> If a Squad Leader is lost, does command of the squad usually fall to
I've been playing around with fire team rules of my own (I'm still not
convinced, though, that SG2 should model fire teams...) I have a squad leader
as a member of a fireteam, but he is an independent leader figure. He can
activate only the two fireteams. He does this with a transfer action. But in
essence, it's the same situation you have created.
If the squad leader is wounded, the fire team gets a new fire team leader as
per the usual rules for replacing a "squad" leader. Then, which ever fire team
leader ends up with the higher leader value becomes the squad leader. In the
case of a tie, the squad leader is in the fireteam that just had the squad
leader as a casualty.
> In the same way if the Platoon Leader buys it, would one of the squad
Usually, if a platoon leader buys it, I just create a new platoon leader,
using the standard replacement rules, from within the platoon leader squad. If
this squad is totally wiped out, the platoon does not have that level of
command. I would probably allow a reorganization action to split off a squad
leader from another squad in order to form a new platoon squad. Or I'd allow a
reorganization action for one of the other squads to become the new command
squad. In your case, I'd let a fireteam do this.
You could force the highest quality, highest leadership value squad be that
new command squad, if you prefer.
> Going beyond my example, I will ask the same question about the loss
I would say the same thing: company commander is wounded, next guy in the
squad takes over. If the entire company command squad is lost, let a platoon
squad take over with a reorganize action, but that would leave a "hole" where
a platoon squad should be.
> Related question: If a Platoon Leader is lost does the entire platoon
Just the platoon command squad. Losing the ability to activate another squad,
and taking the automatic suppression for losing a "squad" leader, as well as
the suppression marker they would get from taking casualties, is enough of a
penalty.
In message <20010404153711.26564.cpmta@c001.zsm.cp.net>, agoodall@canada.com
wr ites:
> On Wed, 04 April 2001, "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
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> Take a platoon (I hope I got it right this time <g>):
Command Squad
- Command Team
- Platoon Leader
- Communications Specialist
- Rifle
- Rifle
- Support Team
- Support Team Leader (no command activation's)
- Rifle
- SAW
- GMS/P
Squad A
- Fire Team A1
- Squad Leader
- Rifle
- Rifle
- SAW
- Fire Team A2
- FT Leader (no command activation's)
- Rifle
- Rifle
- GMS/P
Squad B (same as squad A)
-->Ok, that all makes sense. Just to be clear - I'm going to assume
that as far as actual separate units on the board goes, you're talking
Command Squad Rifle Squad Rifle Squad (Rifle Squad)
For a total of three or four units - and not that you're breaking down
each squad and using them as separate fire teams.
You *could* do that - break down your squads and play them as fire
teams, if you wanted. The advantage is that you get more actions for the
platoon's total firepower. The disadvantage is that you would, under the
rules as written, be treating each little 4-trooper squad as a separate
unit for morale purposes, and the platoon leader would still only be able to
transfer actions to two of them (ignoring company level and higher command). I
prefer to go with larger squads, personally. I do this primarily because the
game goes faster (less units to move around, roll dice for, etc) and so I can
either get in more gaming, or put more big units on the table, and also I'm
perfectly happy with the idea that I'm abstracting the "fire team" concept
into the squad action concept... Some people want the extra realism of moving
fireteams separately.
> OK. It is pretty obvious that if a Fire Team Leader is lost the next
-->Yes. Though you don't actually have to designate anyone in a
fireteam as the assistant team leader.
> If a Squad Leader is lost, does command of the squad usually fall to
-->In "real life", command would *usually* fall to the next senior guy,
who
would *usually* be the second fire team leader - who is the assistant
squad leader. In game terms, pick a figure and say "you're the new leader"...
> In the same way if the Platoon Leader buys it, would one of the squad
--> This comes down to how "realistically" you want to play... When I
play, I assume that the platoon's senior NCO (platoon sergeant, staff
sergeant, whatever) is with the Officer in the command squad, and if the
officer goes down, the senior NCO (within the command squad) takes over. For
playability reasons, the only time I would have one of the squad leaders
become the platoon commander is if the platoon command squad gets wiped out.
Normally, though, if that happens in game, we just say that the platoon has
lost it's commander all together, and the squads fight on as individual units.
Later on, after the battle (which is only taking a
relatively few minutes - if game turns are appx 5 minutes, then a 6 turn
game is only half-an-hour...) then the units are reorganized, a new
platoon commander is picked, etc. In the "heat of battle", things don't work
so smoothly and if the command squad is wiped, they just don't have a platoon
commander any more. Is this "realistic"? Depends on a bunch of stuff. We do it
'cause it works well from a playability point of view. Keeps things simple,
makes people use their commanders carefully. I've seen very few games where a
platoon or company command squad is wiped out or when it takes enough
casualties that the platoon officer and the platoon senior NCO are both wiped
out. Sure it happens, but not often, and not if you're careful. We almost
never play the "fight 'til the last man" type of scenarios, so if things are
going badly, we will try to withdraw, usually.
-->Now, having said all that, it seems reasonable to say that as each
trooper has a fancy helmet with massive data processing capability, individual
communications, datalinks to higher hq's etc, etc, it wouldn't be too hard for
another leader in the platoon to pick up where the platoon officer left off...
I wonder, though, if even with all that extra gear,
the "situational awareness" issue will change much - from a
psychological point of view. The platoon commander (and, presumably the
platoon senior NCO) will be keeping an eye on the operations of the platoon as
a whole, as well as what is going on around it. The squad leaders will be
keeping an eye on the squad, and how the squad is relating to the platoon as a
whole. For a squad leader to suddenly jump into platoon command will require
him
or her to have to try to get the "big picture" - and change his/her
perspective considerably from the "right here, right now" view. That would
take a bit of time, and would be very difficult under pressure, particularly
if that squad is actively engaging the enemy. Sure, the senior squad leader
*would* do it in most cases (well, in most western armies, anyway), but it
would result in a drop in the effectiveness of the platoon for a little while
at the very least.
-->Like I said, I abstract all that sort of stuff into the background,
and
just say that for the purposes of the time-frame in a game, if a platoon
command is wiped out, there just isn't one for the rest of the game. Except,
maybe, for veteran or elite units... but I *never* field elite platoons so
that's a moot point.
> Going beyond my example, I will ask the same question about the loss of
--> And here my "abstract it" view becomes stronger. I'll assume that
at the company level, there is some "staff" with the company commander. If
s/he goes down, someone from the company command squad picks up the
slack. If the company command squad gets wiped out all together, then somebody
made a big mistake somewhere... ;-) I've never seen that happen in a
game. But if it did, I'd be much more likely to have a platoon commander take
over, at some kind of reduced operational effectiveness (that platoon
commander could, for example, transfer actions to other elements within the
company, but he still has to run his own platoon, also - so he would
still only get two actions to use for either his platoon or the company as a
whole...) later, aftter the battle, the company will reorganize itself and a
new company command structure will be put in place properly.
> Related question: If a Platoon Leader is lost does the entire platoon
-->No, just the command squad.
********************************************
Thanks everyone.
This is about how I figured it would work (not messing with trying to shuffle
people from one squad to another to replace a Platoon Leader.
I was also curious in the "real life" situation vs. the way the game handles
it. And that was answered nicely.
Thanks agian.
---
Normally there is a set chain of command defined in the Routine Orders,
Standing Orders or Orders group (or briefing), this ensures that if the
commander is unable to command (for what ever reason) there's no argument
about who takes over.