All right, I used an air drop for just the second time over the weekend, and
my opponent sprung a rule change on me from what we have played in the past.
In the rules section that covers the drops, it says that when a '1' is rolled,
the soldier is wounded just like if the squad had been fired upon. So, my
opponent says that means they get a suppression. If sarge buys it in the drop,
two suppressions.
Is that the way you guys play? I can see an argument for both sides.
1. Your buddy is injured in the drop, of course that leads to some confusion.
But,
2. At the rate injuries occur in airdrops, some injuries are expected to
occur.
I always interpreted the "just as if the squad had been fired upon" to be a
modifier to the "wounded." But I could well be wrong. I don't really care
which way the rule is supposed to be... I just don't like it when the other
guy knows what a scenario calls for and waits until something happens, then
says, "Oh yeah, btw, you're boned because I found this rule that says, 'you're
boned.'"
:-)
I'm not too familiar with SGII, but the interpretaton appears logical for
wounding the soldier, but seems a stretch for the suppression. Why would
everyone duck for cover if Bob sprained his ankle?
Mike
Michael Miserendino Senior Software Engineer Lincoln Re mtmiserendino@lnc.com
> owner-gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU at internet 01/26/00 02:45PM >>>
All right, I used an air drop for just the second time over the weekend, and
my opponent sprung a rule change on me from what we have played in the past.
In the rules section that covers the drops, it says that when a '1' is rolled,
the soldier is wounded just like if the squad had been fired upon. So, my
opponent says that means they get a suppression. If sarge buys it in the drop,
two suppressions.
Is that the way you guys play? I can see an argument for both sides.
1. Your buddy is injured in the drop, of course that leads to some confusion.
But,
2. At the rate injuries occur in airdrops, some injuries are expected to
occur.
I always interpreted the "just as if the squad had been fired upon" to be a
modifier to the "wounded." But I could well be wrong. I don't really care
which way the rule is supposed to be... I just don't like it when the other
guy knows what a scenario calls for and waits until something happens, then
says, "Oh yeah, btw, you're boned because I found this rule that says, 'you're
boned.'"
:-)
Well, i think our group interprets the Suppression a little differently. If
teh Squad Leader was injured then a Suppression is appropriate due to the
effects of a lost leader; confusion etc. Otherwise the simple breaking of a
leg or arm is not going to send the whole squad into a grounding hugging
confused fit.....I'm not a jumper but I've spent a lot of time on LZs and
often a guy injured on landing isn't noticed until he doesn't make it to the
rally point or someone hears his screaming! In peacetime, safety requirements
usually lead to a flurry of activity as medics and ambo's look after the guy.
On operations though I'm betting it will be a different story. Rally, Head
Count, find the injured. This doesn't sound like an
example of a Suppressed squad/section.
In game terms the repercussions would include a necessary Re-Org action
as well as I would say the dispersed troops would need to rally on the injured
troopers location rather than some other location of choice.
Was the rest of the game played in the same vein? The pointing out of of
'obscure' rules or was this a one off?
How did the rest of teh sceanrio go?
Owen G
> -----Original Message-----
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Cleats Balentine wrote:
> All right, I used an air drop for just the second time
Typically a drop into a hot LZ (para drops) results in a fubared op. See
the landing into Arnham, some of the off target landings on D-Day (St
Mere Egliese I think?). Usually if there is any resistance its a couple of
guys way off on the other side of the field firing with a GPMG at extreme
range. Not a whole platoon or company shooting you up as you come down.
The argument for the supressions does sorta make sense, but you should have
already dropped, and it would be moot.
I see it this way, the drop occurs, Pltn Sgt, breaks his leg. The team spends
5 minutes fixing the sgt up and sets him up in a hollow where he can camp
until extraction. Then they move one with the mission.
If its an inserstion via VTOL, then the likely hood of breaking your leg
getting out is less (though I guess it can happen people break their necks
walking down their stairs at home).
I just have a problem with the small insertion going into a hot LZ from the
start. Combat Air Drops always go bad when the Airborne get swatted in the LZ.
They play this out at NTC and there is always a grace period where the Red
force can't swat the Airborne with Artillery in the LZ. Mostly their ability
to swat the airborne with the artillery comes from having their s**t together.
Problem is it builds an expectation with the
paras, that they won't have a hot LZ.
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Michael T Miserendino wrote:
> I'm not too familiar with SGII, but the interpretaton appears logical
I read it not as supression absolute, but that everyone is falling all over
themselves getting new orders, redistributing the load of batteries
for the PRC, ammo for the SAW and making sure the SGT is comfy while he waits
for extraction.
> I'm not too familiar with SGII, but the interpretaton appears
Ryan Gill replied:
> I read it not as supression absolute, but that everyone is
And you'd be doing this while people shot at you? If "no", then it's not
really a suppression, right?
Well since this kind of stuff is up my alley I'll take a crack at it.
First off you have several types of drops. (Note none of this particularly
applies to power armor)
1. What's known as a Mass Tac. This is a company, bn, brigade level drop. Air
support, follow on reinforcements, lots of people. Normandy, Holland, Kolwezi,
Grenada, Panama. These are either drops directly on the target ala Point
Salinas or the Panama drops (or the Haiti drop that was called off at the last
minute), These are done knowingly under fire. Or they're dropped away from the
target (1st UK Abn at Arnhem, Russian Paras at the Georgian border in
Chechnya). The loss of al percentage of people isn't going to hinder a damn
thing. If someone doesn't make the RP (Rally Point) at the right time then
it's off everyone goes. In fact Combat SOP in US Army for assaults (not
airborne insertions, we're talking stuff like airfield seizure etc) is that
you don't even wait for everyone. If it looks like there will be a delay, once
15 percent of the force is assembled off they go under command of the highest
ranking man towards the objective. If sarge is shot or injured the platoon
will not even go for him, that's compnay or battalion that will take care of
stragglers on the LZ. These are essentially large conventional operations
probably above the scope of most SG games (but within the scope of DS
operations).
These next two are more clandestine...
2. A smaller platoon-sized insertion (example many WW2 Merills Marauder
type operations or ranger "type" other ops, many SADF and other African brush
fire
ops-Portuguese, Rhodesians etc) These ops never drop near the objective
at all, it is a big mistake or screw up if they are under fire since they
don't have the strength to fight through it.
3. Special operations insertions. Secret or clandestine insertions by smaller
teams. They're compromise on landing is virtually unheard of due to the effort
put into their insertion planning.
In any case I'd argue against suppression results against the squad on landing
for X period of turns. (Though certainly the individual would take them) The
guys know they will be landing outside of command radius and are essentially
on automatic pilot until they reach the RP. The first thing that's going to
happen after landing even in contact is that everyone will make or fight their
way to the rally point as individuals. However I would say that once two guys
get into normal SG command radius of each other (2') then they take
suppression results as a group. And it continues as more guys hook up.
Particularly in drop types two and three, if they don't reform first everyone
is dead or gonna die. A wounded man would be aided by someone within sight or
radius of him. Most likely that person will go to him and provide cover while
the rest of the squad reforms and then starts working as a single entity.
If it's a non-fighting injury, (and or noone knows where the guy is)
the first priority is still to rally as a squad, then send someone after the
guy. Without establishing control and security first. particularly in enemy
territory, then the small insertion squad or platoon is in grave danger.
So let me summarize how I would game a SG drop by, lets say, a platoon. (based
on real world experience)
1. Troops placed on the map via the current landing and scatter rules. However
prior to drop the dropping player should have secretly designated a rally
point or points for his troops.
2. All individuals must begin making their way towards the rally point. Once
they come within two inches of each other, the figures now operate as a single
group.
3. IN order to fire at targets that haven't fired at them, individuals must
pass a quality die check.at one level higher than their squad's normal check
(i.e. a 1 squad would need a 2 to shoot a someone other than anyone who shot
at them) UNLESS the target is within range band one, then they may fire
normally.
4. Once the squad has either reformed on the way to the RP or at the RP it
performs normally.
Anyway I'm just making this up as I type. Step 3 keeps people from choosing to
turn a SG game into an FMA game. feel free to make changes.
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Laserlight wrote:
> Ryan Gill replied:
Ah, no, but, when you are redistributing mission critical supplies and giving
the sarge field aid, its the same effect on the team as hugging the turf and
trying to claw your way into the ground. The squad is not fighting and the
squad is not trying to get to the fight. An experienced
team is going to do all this faster and with more finesse than a poor team.
Hence the way that this rule works.
I realize its not the same thing, however insofar as game mechanics go, it
works great either way.
I would say that *most* of our group (we have about five regular SG II
players) interpret it the same way
you guys do. We do have one guy that likes to nit-pic
and find an advantage anyway he can.
He also *never* takes any big chances. After losing a squad in its apc, he
*never* uses his apcs to deploy his squads, only as support vehicles. After
having one jump go wrong, he *never* uses jump troops.
Not that there's anything inherently wrong with that.
:-)
I'll tell you, this scenario didn't go well at all for me.
On the jump, the command squad got the squad leader
down ok, then lost the GMS/P, AGL and EW troopers.
The next squad lost the squad leader and one rifleman, but the two suppression
that were "forced" on me pretty much left them in the lurch.
My power armor squad also lost its squad leader and one other trooper.
I believe that if not for losing five actions from those suppressions, things
would have gone in a different direction.
> --- "Glover, Owen" <oglover@museum.vic.gov.au> wrote:
All of the things you are talking about... tranferring supplies, medical
treatment of wounded, etc.... are all things that take place in
reorganization. That's the first thing a dropped squad has to do anyway.
> --- Ryan M Gill <monty@arcadia.turner.com> wrote:
> Cleats Balentine wrote:
> I would say that *most* of our group (we have about
OK, I took the time to look through the rules. I've been following this
thread, but didn't want to chime in with an opinion without consulting the old
rule book. As far as I can tell, there is nothing even remotely mentioning
suppression due to drop loses. The passage you indicated, and your "friend"
cited, refers to the way the wound is handled, not to the suppressive effects
of fire. Now you'd still have to roll your confidence tests. This could be a
real problem if you take a lot of casualties on the drop and must abandon
them. But most drops would have high mission motivation, so the modifiers are
small enough. Airborne (and presumably, spaceborne) troops are trained for
these sort of eventualities. It might lower their confidence level, but
they're not going to go to ground.
-Mike
> On 27-Jan-00 at 13:08, Michael Sarno (msarno@ptdprolog.net) wrote:
This kind of reminds me of the "heavy fighters act like shields therefore we
treat them as normal fighters versus K'rvak" thing. You can read too much into
the rules.
> Roger Books wrote:
> On 27-Jan-00 at 13:08, Michael Sarno (msarno@ptdprolog.net) wrote:
Roger, You're right, but this is even more evil. The heavy fighter rules state
that you should "treat them [heavy fighters] as is they had level-1
screen in operation." That was just an unfortunate choice of words. The drop
rules state that troops rolling a 1 "are treated as WOUNDED, just as if hit by
enemy small arms fire." It states nothing about the other effects of small
arms fire. Besides, in the rules covering suppression, the suppression is
caused by the minor or major success, not the wounding. I'd have to say that
this case goes beyond simple rules lawyering and treads into the territory of
cheating. My advice, if you ever meet this guy, run, don't walk. <g>
-Mike
Greetings, I do not play SG very often, so please weigh my comments
accordingly.
Getting wounded from an aeral/orbital insertion seemed to most closely
resemble being wounded from a booby trap or mine, in that it was not caused by
enemy fire (if there is another instance of being wounded from something other
than enemy fire, I could not find it). Understanding that there is no splash
effect (i.e. cannot harm another element), I looked at the
mines/booby traps rules. I was, somewhat, suprised to find no supression
for being in a minefield and haveing a mine go off. Booby traps, also, do not
cause unit suppression. From this, I cannot see how wounding from a "drop"
could possibly cause suppression.
-----
Brian Bell bkb@beol.net
http://members.xoom.com/rlyehable/sg2/
-----
> -----Original Message-----
[snip]
> Roger,