From: "Phillip Atcliffe" <Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk>
> The whole concept of the 40K universe is a Dark Future(tm) in which
May I respectfully disagree?
On the surface, there is a veneer of respectability. Many Munchkins buy into
the whole "Emperor is the Saviour of Humanity" bit, swallowing it whole. But
the veneer is thin. Pretty soon, a large proportion start saying "Hang on...".
And without making the forces of Chaos out to be the Good Guys(tm) they start
to ask questions about "their" side's moral superiority.
There are deep and powerful lessons here. You may laugh at the seeming
absurdity, but had a large number of Germans some 60-odd years ago been
exposed to the same "Gedankenexperiment", maybe, just maybe, the National
Socialist German Worker's Party might not have had such a long run. As for
those who never do see beyond the veneer, and there are many, it reminds us
all that what happened in Germany could happen here and now, unless we're
careful. The pimply adolescents happily slaughtering the
From: Alan and Carmel Brain aebrain@austarmetro.com.au
> As for those who never do see beyond the veneer, and there are many,
*Is* happening now, eg in Sudan.
> As for the dark Future: consider the dillemma of someone in Hungary,
Move to the US in 1938 or 39. Sometimes you can ignore the world around you
and get away with it, but sometimes you have to say "my entire life savings
for a 3rd class ticket? such a deal!" It's not fun to arrive in a foreign
country where you don't know anyone, don't speak the language and have only
$17 in your pocket...but it's more fun than Siberia.
> Alan and Carmel Brain wrote:
> From: "Phillip Atcliffe" <Phillip.Atcliffe@uwe.ac.uk>
My problem with the 40k universe is not that the human empire is as bad as
chaos, but that human society is a warmed over corpse that hasn't realised
that it is dead. The implication is that only entropy has advanced in the 10k
years since the Horus heresy. Despite having technology that we cannot
distinguish from magic, they are in the mythical dark ages that did not really
exist between the fall of Rome and the renaissance. Technical knowledge is
squirreled away by a priesthood that is not only unable to advance knowledge,
but is struggling to keep things from being forgotten. The other 'good' guys
are no better off. The eldar are a dying remnant of a once vibrant, but
decadent, culture.
lawd, lawd!
my life savings or a 3rd class ticket to america?
kinda ignors the folks-the vast majority of folks-who had no life
savings to spend for that ticket?
and immgration restrictions or outright refusals for whatever reasons
too. . .
i am quite certain there are millions who would have fled europe if they had
the money to do so, but could not do so.
dawgie
> and immgration restrictions or outright refusals for whatever
America wasn't the only destination. I was initially going to suggest
Australia, in fact, but it appears that it may not be exactly a bright
idea...
> i am quite certain there are millions who would have fled europe if
Started saving too late. You don't try to leave Aug 30 if the war is starting
Sept 1. You start making plans a couple of years in advance. What if you can't
save it within that time frame, or don't realize
what's going on? Well, then you sneak out, or beg/bribe/buy your way
out, or stay put and cross your fingers. Lots of people take that last option,
not that it's necessarily one which justifies a lot of optimism
--- Alan and Carmel Brain <aebrain@austarmetro.com.au>
wrote:
> As for the dark Future: consider the dillemma of
Umm. . .
The same thing the Finns did? Militarily ally with the Germans, but tell them
to keep their damn racial policies to themselves? (Something like 3 Jews were
killed in Finland, not counting battle deaths vs. Russians, and later vs.
Germans).
The Poles told them both to go to hell, fought 50% longer than the French did
(with no modern aircraft, no modern tanks, no heavy AT weapons, no
fortifications, and no natural barriers). After that,
they ran the only non-Communist truly effective
partisan movement.
The Finns and the Poles are the only people from the Continent you can root
for from 1935 to 1945.
> John Atkinson wrote:
> The Finns and the Poles are the only people from the
I'd have to disagree. I'd add in the Dutch, and probably the Danes and
Norwegians as well. I visited the Dutch Resistance Museum in Am'dam last
spring. Interesting thing. The Dutch resistance can trace it's roots back to
protests by gentile Dutch over the treatment of Dutch Jews at the hands of the
Germans, and grew from there.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
I'll tenatively give you the Norwegians, but neither the Danes nor Dutch put
up a creditable fight, nor were their resistance organizations effective on
the scale that the Poles were.
[quoted original message omitted]
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> PS: The Russians were on the "Continent" too, and
Yeah, but they didn't put up a really decent fight until they shifted troops
from Siberia. These troops were better because they were less heavily purged
because they were in the middle of nowhere and less of a threat to Stalin.:)
> though most Brits wouldn't reckon it part of the
Why should I reckon it such if they don't?
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> > > >The Finns and the Poles are the only people
> PS: The Russians were on the "Continent" too, and
Oh, and by the way, if you can honestly root for Stalinist Communists, you're
nuts. I mean, given a choice between Hitler and Stalin... the only difference
is that the 3rd Reich was an immediate
short-term threat to Western Civilization, while the
Russian Commies were a mid-term threat to Western Civ.
You have to live through the short term to worry
about the mid-term.
[quoted original message omitted]
On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 10:03:22 +0100 KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de
> (K.H.Ranitzsch) writes:
Well, welcome to the club - sure gets a lot of stares though, doesn't
it?
Gracias,
> --- "K.H.Ranitzsch" <KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de> wrote:
> > .. you're nuts. I mean, given a choice between
They tend to have very little attraction to me as
well--there are some scenarios that pose interesting
tactical problems, which are mildly interesting. Scenarios with Finns I like
also, but other than that, I'm far more interested in the fighting in Italy or
France.
> John Atkinson wrote:
I was referring more to my respect for their intent than their effectiveness,
but I will concede that point to you.
> --- Brian Bilderback <bbilderback@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I was referring more to my respect for their intent
Yeah, they tried. But no one on the Western Front in 1940 was even capable
(due to 20 years of conditioning) of thinking in terms of a war of maneuver.
Now the Poles, they had fought a big messy war of maneuver against the
Russians in 1920 and kicked ass and took names. This colored their experience
and they planned to do the same thing to the Germans. Problems arose for a
couple reasons: Really effective use of tac air by Germans. Loss of security
along the southern border due to Munich. Further the Poles were thinking in
terms of the marching speed of a horse rather than a tank or halftrack. Tanks
in Polish brigades were there to support the cavalry. Oh yeah, plus they were
badly outnumbered and the Russians entering the war didn't make things any
easier.