[SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

5 posts ยท Jul 18 2002 to Jul 21 2002

From: Thomas Barclay <Thomas.Barclay@s...>

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:56:16 -0400

Subject: [SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

1) John, what's a reasonable separation for two platoons of IFVs (part of the
same infantry company) on the move? I would have thought two lines, each
containing 3 vehicles, with 200m horizontal spacing, 100m vertical (along the
axis of attack) spacing was enough. Perhaps I'm way short? It was this
configuration which allowed the 400m artillery diameter to cream the crap out
of the APCs. Anyone else care to venture or produce an FM reference? At some
point you exceed the range of mutual support. Before I blame the manouver
commander for his incompetence, I should have some idea how to advise him for
following games.

2) Also, something else bothers me a bit in DS2. Why is all artillery a 2"
burst radius? Yes, it has different chit draws. But the point of some
artillery types is coverage. (example: MRLS). Standard tube artillery (esp
using ToT) can put down excellent pinpoint fire. But MRLS give area coverage.
But all artillery is a 2" burst radius in DS. (In SG, areas being grossly
restricted for some types, they at least capture this distinction between
small area booms and big area booms).

3) Why can't I call artillery down on a grid reference? Obviously the game
doesn't have
rules, but pre-registered fire points on GPS'd
map coordinates hardly seems impossible today. And if we assume you can see
anything on the board from recon drones, satellites, etc, and you don't
actually need to do spotting of units and then IDing and then artillery calls,
then we'd quickly see the force compositions of DS forces being ten hover
jeeps or grav bikes with artillery spotters and a huge whopping pile of
artillery (at least for defenses or meeting engagements). Artillery alone if
used in quantity is effective enough to ruins someone's day.

4) IAVRs in SG2 are underpowered, like GMS/P.
Concur.

5) Why would you want to close assault a tank unit with infantry in DS2? If
you force the unit to make a reaction test, they may withdraw. This gives you
the position for free. Plus you may not have IAVR equipped troops. (Militia,
irregs,
etc).

6) I find DS2 CA interesting. You don't seem to get good defensive reaction
test mods for being in position or for having armour or for having PA. You get
penalized for being attacked by PA, but not for defending with it. Odd. Seems
to me PA is fairly effective in SG2 in either case.....

7) Debarking a vehicle under attack. John seemed to take both sides of the
fence. (He didn't, it just seemed that way). He says basically you wouldn't
get out under machinegun fire, but if the vehicle was alight or the GEV lost
cushion and went crunch into the ground, he'd be out like a flash. But then
again, since the driver controls the ramps, he might have a hard time getting
out. Oh, and someone is shooting a machinegun...?

I guess what he was suggesting (correct me if I'm wrong in your oh so gentle
manner *grin*, John) is that there are some things that inhibit your desire to
get out and some things which enhance it. Would it be possible to create a
list of modifiers that should apply, I wonder? Getting shot at drops the TL,
having a disabled vehicle ups the TL, etc. And should debarkation take more
game time if the driver is dead (can't throw open the ramp)? And we talk about
a dead crewman (killed by spall), but we won't unass, unless of course there
is also a fire, etc. How do we relate this to known vehicle states in SG2?
(Immobilized, Disabled, Destroyed, Systems Down)?

8) I hate mixed mobility forces too. Don't yet have quite enough GEV minis.
And still trying to figure out how to do GEV CEVs that make sense. OTOH, the
minute you throw in transport vehicles, engineers, etc, don't you kind of
automatically get mixed mobility types?

9) DS2 has no quality roll for spotting (well, it does, in that you call the
arty, but it either arrives on target or doesn't come at all). Even today, we
see US Spec Ops blown up by their own air support and Canadian troops nuked by
USAF. Now, I'm not trying to raise any sort of spectre here, but the point I'm
making is the DS2 rules seem fratricide free. Perhaps this will be the case in
200 years. I have much less faith than the author on this one. Doubly so as a
former grunt who was usually likely to be on the receiving end of any errors.

10) There is no ten. Carry on with the day's training.

From: Laserlight <laserlight@q...>

Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:09:25 -0400

Subject: Re: [SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

> the crap out of the APCs. Anyone else care to

I already produced an FM reference, burned it to CD, an mailed it to

From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@m...>

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:34:26 +1000

Subject: RE: [SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

G'day,

> 2) Also, something else bothers me a bit in

I take it this is beyond the closed/open sheaf thing?

> 5) Why would you want to close assault a tank

Maybe we haven't been playing the right kinda games, but I would've though
IAVRs are pretty standard kit and infantry has them = the default state.

> 6) I find DS2 CA interesting. You don't seem to

I think we've discussed this before, did any consensus (modifiers) come out of
that last discussion (my saved threads are at home I'll see if I can dig it
out tonight if I get half a chance).

> 9) DS2 has no quality roll for spotting (well, it

You could expand the results with a houserule...

roll > critical number (4 or 6 depending if on or off board artillery)
=> on
target and coming in roll = critical number => coming in, but deviate as for
ortillery roll < critical number => not coming at all

Either that or give the artillery battery a quality rating regardless of
whether on board or not.

BASIC = D6 ENHANCED = D8 SUPERIOR = D10

Roll these vs a D8. If the artillery die > D8 then no deviation, but if the
deviation is > artillery die then the difference is the number of inches
deviated (direction determined by clockface/rolling a D12).

Just a thought.

Cheers

From: Oerjan Ohlson <oerjan.ohlson@t...>

Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:35:56 +0200

Subject: Re: [SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

> TomB wrote:

> 1) John, what's a reasonable separation for two platoons of IFVs (part

"Wide enough apart that a single closed sheaf cannot cover both platoons" is
generally considered to be a good idea...

> 5) Why would you want to close assault a tank

Even irregulars and militia are very likely to have IAVRs. Think "RPG-7"
-
the standard heavy weapon of the Afghani mujahideen, the weapon that
(allegedly with slight modifications to the grenade fuses) brought down a
number of helicopters over Mogadishu, etc... you don't get much more
"irregular militia" than the Somali gangs :-/

Later,

From: John Atkinson <johnmatkinson@y...>

Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:31:42 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: [SG] [DS] Mr. Atkinson's feedback :)

> --- Thomas Barclay <kaladorn@magma.ca> wrote:

Well, by modern practice, on road marches it's 100m between tracks, 300m
between platoons. On the attack,
it's be METT-T determined (US Armyspeak for "We kind
of wing it") but the rule of thumb is not much less than 500m. Unless you're
doing an infiltration attack but that's not really possible on the DSII board
without a lot of dummy counters.

> 2) Also, something else bothers me a bit in

It's assuming the difference between little carrier munitions and big carrier
munitions is saturation level.

Otherwise the big MRLS systems would dominate the game to an unplayable
points. IRL these systems are
limited by gross inaccuracy of the Soviet-style MRLs,
the incredibly low rates of fire, and the rarity of these systems generally
tasking them to "deep battle"
tasks rather than direct support of company-sized
attacks.

> 3) Why can't I call artillery down on a grid

Why couldn't you? IF your umpire permits it, then you could set up TRPs which
would allow you to call down fire without setting out any markers or anything,
which means your opponent won't know where to move away from. I permitted this
in the Carter Island scenario.

> rules, but pre-registered fire points on GPS'd

Ummm... the answer to that would be "playability".

> 4) IAVRs in SG2 are underpowered, like GMS/P.

I'd strongly suggest kicking them up to d12x2*, GMS/Ls
to d12x3*, and GMS/Hs to d12x5*.

> 5) Why would you want to close assault a tank

If you don't have IAVR equipped troops, you freakin' loose. At least vs. MBTs.
Hell, against much of
anything with an armor rating 2+ you loose.

> 6) I find DS2 CA interesting. You don't seem to

True.

> 7) Debarking a vehicle under attack. John

The expression is "METT-T dependant".  It would be
LONG.

> Getting shot at drops the TL,

Depending on what is shooting at you. I'm immobilized in front of a battery of
Soviet 125mm AT guns. I get out NOW and run. I'm imobilized in the middle of a
mass of Afghan irregulars, I stay in the damn track and scream for help.
Without dismounts securing the area, the crew will not want to dismount unless
they
are aware of enemy weapons that can produce a "K-Kill"
(Catastrophic, IE vehicle goes BOOM) on them.

Of course, if the vehicle catches fire, the crew is going to get out even if
the entire population of Somalia is waving the contents of their knife drawers
at them.

> 8) I hate mixed mobility forces too. Don't yet

Unless you have grav trucks...